Win Consulting Clients Using this Referral Strategy with Katie McConnel Olson
Hello. Everyone its Michaels of Persky and today I'm here with Katie McConnell Olsen Katie welcome, thank. You happy to be here yes. So you are the founder, and CEO of higher education, Consulting Group a full-service. Talent optimization, consulting, firm so for everyone out there just, explain what does Talent optimization. Mean. Exactly. Good question. Basically, it means we do all things in the search and hiring strategy. Space so, we do full cycle search much like a traditional recruiter. And then. A bunch of other stuff too all of the strategy, behind what that really means like we need to add a new role or we don't know how much to pay or how. Do we afford, somebody, what is off-boarding, you know they're not a match anymore or what is our org chart look like and where do we know when we need to add role all, the way through process, improvement around the hiring cycle and essentially anything in the talent base about. It okay and you, know when I was preparing. For our call, here today and kind of just going through your, your. Passuk you've had quite a journey from being. A tax, auditor, or kind of in that tax auditing world. Right a VP, of Assurance and I guess like doing financial, audits and then, into recruiting so probably walk us through what. That looked like for you to like, how you started off and got, to where you are today, yes. Definitely, a checker board pass not a ladder climb. My. Degree is in finance and, I started, as an auditor in public accounting so basically, I was a bean-counter that, went out to companies and, looked at their financials, mostly. In the public company space to make sure the numbers are right for, the shareholders, and then. Took a couple twists and turns in my career through a few startup, ventures, ended. Up landing in a start-up, CPA firm and was, doing some of the same work but really got a taste of what it means to build a business and you know go find clients and what it means to be a business, owner then. From there I ended up landing in recruitment, by, way of startups. That didn't stay started, as that. Sometimes happens and then became. A recruiter and so, that was kind of the first foray into recruiting. And I was recruiting, accounting, roles and working with a lot of accountants, and then. Realized I'm, kind, of underutilized. But I have a lot of ideas and I got recruited back in the public accounting, to, run, the recruiting Department for a national, CPA firm so, got to go through a lot of merger and acquisition, at that point in time loves, the role but, at one point in time said, I have a business idea here, on how we can help clients and so I migrated, back into the client side and started the practice within, that CPA firm helping companies hire accountants.
One. Thing led to another that, company, went through an acquisition at, that point in time I found all kinds of other ideas and decided to exit that firm and start my own company which has hired a JRE, education, consulting, built. A team and now here we are with, the full cycle strategy, and then search well, beyond just accountant, at this stage and, then what, made you like what was kind of the impetus, or the. Tipping point er that the push that may decide you know what after all like. These you know the different things that you've been through which is quite a bit in terms of what you just shared what, made you like what push should actually get into consulting, and start, your own business like, why not just go out and work. At another firm or do another kind of startup like why actually specifically, get into the, consulting. Good. Question I think there's a business need, that I saw in a market that wasn't, getting access to the services that we offer a lot. Of the clients that I worked with at that time and still do are in the construction, and trade place for the AEC, industry, I am, architecture. Engineering and construction, really. Great. With the back of the house work but really struggled, with the front of the house infrastructure. Around adding people and in, the market that is just exploding. And doing really well as it was at. Its peak when I started this company saw. A market that wasn't getting served and there was a need for it and I think that's really where it came to be was well what if we created a business that could serve them and really solve a problem which i think is how most companies started, hey there's a problem how, can we fill a need and then, it really evolved, into letting the market lead us into hey. You, know we're doing exit interviews and more seen that this is a reoccurring, problem let's start a service line around a feedback. Program that can solve this problem yeah. So, I mean what I love about that is you're right like so you identify the need, right. But I think a lot of people have, ideas. The, market, needs what we have or right we have something great to offer but actually translating, that into a, successful. Business or even before it's successful, taking, that that kind of idea and actually going out to the marketplace and validating. That idea or getting, your first client, that's a challenge for a lot of people so it's con take us back to what. Did you do so you identified, but, there was a need right the next step was then to what go ahead and kind of validate it through conversations. Like how did you actually go about and confirm. That what your beliefs were like, the hypothesis, was actually going to play out and, then land your first client as a result of that I. Think. It started on the search side so we knew when clients were calling saying hey I need to hire somebody they have a neat - they have they needed an employee but, then really diving several, layers deep into that well why why do you have this meet is it growth is it turnover, is it, you, know people. Aren't getting things done and we're having a capacity issue where's, the need really coming from and just really. Getting curious and asking those questions and, then, finding out ok well the real root of the problem is we've, got turnover, and it's because of XYZ or we've got explosive.
Growth And we're not sure how to manage it this is what's really happening so, I think it's really, it, was getting curious, from the perspective, of hey we need to hire people and really finding the root. Of why we're hiring in the first place right, and then developing, core services, around that so. Then how did and then what did you actually do to get the first client is what you shared, from. What I understood is like the the. Previous experience, was really focused around accountants. But, where you when you launch your consulting business you were serving more of like the architects, and construction. Or, that that kind of area right in today's AC right. Yeah. How, did you make that. Like. That shift how did you go into the. AC in industries. Without necessarily having a lot of experience in that, area like what were the steps you took to actually start, lining the first few clients. Sure. So, our business model is really unique and not all of our business is referral, business so, we don't make cold calls, we don't, really chase leads we, do everything by way of introduction, and. Uniquely, positioned, because of my relationships, in the CPA community. They're our best referral partner so they're on the front lines with their clients, and we were very strategic about, developing, affiliate, relationships, with CPAs, so, that's really where we started was sitting across the table and saying hey you know I'm a free agent now I'm no longer associated, with one firm I can work for all of these firms how can we scratch each other's back if you will and create mutual value for each other and, they started helping me get in the door and our first client, was of the new firm when we first launched was actually a compensation, study so, it was a little bit on the fringe, because, it wasn't you know our core services, but it was a really good stretch project, and. One of my core values within my organization is, say yes we, always have the philosophy yes, if not, no so, we said okay how can we say yes we can do this if, you. Know X Y & Z happens and so we undertook, it and that was our first client project and we did a full compensation study which opened the door to some org chart work and then some search work and then referrals. And I'm. Not saying we don't you. Know have a CRM, system in an organized way to chase leads but we do it all through affiliate and partnership, yeah I love that so you need it yeah no take us deeper into that because I think there's a lot of value that could people could kind of you know get from just understanding, more. Clearly exactly what, you did so let's, just imagine you're, back in the day you're sitting I guess about a year ago or so in Aris and you start your consulting company right a little bit maybe on that you're. Sitting down with another CPA, you're, saying hey I'm no longer working with one company I can now, I can work with you I can help, a lot of your clients what. What did that exchange, look like what were you offering, them how are you positioning it that you could kind, of bring values, them and what were they looking for in return. That's. Where we always start the conversation, I always start with hey, how can I help you and what are you looking for is it new clients for you is it an extension of service line so that you guys can be the one-stop shop for your clients, as a CPA how can i fulfill, a need that you have and then, back in -. Okay well here's what we can offer you sometimes. We do pay our affiliates, for sending us business I think that there's a lot of value to be had in bringing, the opportunity. To the table so, we do have strategic, alliances, with number of other firms and businesses where, if they actually help us secure a client we will compensate. And vice versa. Typically. Those hoaxer. Know you're ahead you go ahead we. Typically have many mutual clients and, that's a great opportunity for them to tag us in or vice versa. We have complementary, services, and it's a great way to expand, our reach and you, know kind of keep it in the family if you will with the client base that we support.
And. When do you bring up the the. Compensation, Park is a pretty common question that we hear from from, clients and our coaching program and you, notice consultants, come in the community is is. It okay to you, know to pay a referral, fee when, you ask for it so what's made some of the best practices, that you've just. You know kind of identified. Or discovered. And currently now use when it comes to talking about referral. And content compensation. Our. Affiliate. Agreements, we set up front I don't. Think I would ever go to somebody, after I had already scratched, their back and given them a client and then said oh by the way surprise you owe me for that I would, say that expectation, needs to be set up front the, way that we went about it in the beginning was, hey. We're, spending business, to mat quite a bit and that's making a lot of money off of us we should probably approach, that and say hey you know what. Would you think about making this official and that's really what we did and once we had a couple of them in place we had some momentum and then could approach other individuals, and say you know it looks like you have a really complimentary, service offering what would you think about striking, an agreement right out of the gate so that foundation, is set and there isn't any awkwardness, about trying to to build on the back end yeah, I love how you position now because it makes, it just like you lower your guard when the, expectations, are very clear from the beginning right rather than going into and kind of wondering like you're you're kind of taking the what are the cat out of the bag it's, just very clear like what you know what both parties are are thinking what's that that's really powerful and. Then how. Did you get in front of CPAs right, busy. People they're. Working with our clients and how did you actually set, the meetings to, be able to have these conversations set, these strategic kind of partnerships, and and, referrals. With them. Well. I kind, of cheated because I do have a CPA, license, and came from that world so a lot of them in my region were, I went, to college with them I saw them at other events we kind of traded. Throughout. Firms over the years so I kind of you know knew people that knew people but. For outside, of the region a persistence, a lot of it was knowing, other people and once again leveraging, the network of the people that I did know I'm very big, on starting, with the hub of people that I do know and leveraging, my influencers.
Rather. Than you know just bugging people and sometimes, it's just sure persistence, beats resistance, in hey, it's me again you, know it's probably easier, to just take a half an hour meeting with me than just take out a restraining order so you, know maybe let's go that route and just sit down and give, me a half an hour of your time and, and then we'll forge a relationship and, sometimes it's, you know not all first dates turn into a romance sometimes it doesn't work out but getting, out there and meeting a ton of people, was. My approach to build that Network and I'm still doing it every day and, so when you let's say you know you go into LinkedIn or whatever your CRM you're looking ok I know these people I, want to have a meeting with them I don't know them that well like maybe maybe. We, met at some event or some you know whatever it was what's. The approach is it like if you could just kind of share me a sample script you use it just hey it's it's Katie and we're, both CPAs, I'd love to learn more about what you're doing or just something completely different what's kind of a tried-and-true, message. Or approach that you would use. If. I'm looking through mutual. Connections, that's the first place I'm going to start who are we both connected, to what do we have in common did we go to the same college have we touched, base, with the same client I'm of course going to use a mutual connection, as a door opener if I don't have any I'm. Looking for some other connection, point or I'm really just hoping, you. Know hoping for the best, I'm using my recruiter, skills and tips and tricks to try to throw a line in the water and hope I get, the catch of it-- and, for. Every 10 people do you reach out to how, many would you say that that actually turns into a, conversation. Gosh. Probably four, five, I think, we have a pretty good turn rate, as. I mentioned before we don't do a lot of Matt. Targeting. Is all very sort of hard, outreach. And. I try to be pretty careful about that because if I reached out to ten people and got ten meetings then I have a whole different problem with what to do with myself with time and. So balancing, all those things as far, as challenges of being a small business right, well, I know I know with what you share with me you know I'm kind of before we jumped on here in some, communication. Beforehand that the business is off to a really good start things have gone well you're. A little bit I think beyond a year now in terms of since starting, the consulting, business and you, already have is it four people on the team or how many team, members currently, are involved in the business we. Have four correct okay so, I think a lot of people right when they're starting a consulting, business or even if they're a couple of years into it they're really hesitating, and trying, to delay bringing on other people and building the team right, willing to save and keep, very lean and not manage people but clearly. You've taken a very different approach to tell us what was the mindset for you or is the mindset for you around building, teaming and hiring. Sure. Well. Part. Of our business our big, piece of our business messaging. Is around human leverage right hire people and get human leverage so if we're going to walk the talk and do what we teach our clients to do we pretty much have to take, that approach -. For me it's. Not less scary I understand. How terrifying it is and that, one hour of investment, is so hard to give up from your day but it does turn into hundreds. And hundreds of hours of leverage. Once you have somebody ramped up in the chair about human leverage. It's amazing, to come to work every day and have a team that executes, on my vision my goal to. Be unified, in one, mission. That, were helping so many businesses, around the region around the western United States achieve their goals and mission so, why wouldn't you but. There is a headache and a lot of paperwork that comes with payroll and labor, things and it's. Definitely been a learning, curve for me also, what. Was the first role that you hired for. Critter. Okay. And why, did you choose, need. To bring up bring on a recruiter, as opposed to let's say an, assistant. Or some other could you just kind of delegate some lower value tasks do. So. My approach in looking at how to add hires is the same advice that I would give a client and that's to look at where's my highest and best use and my, highest and best use was not being, a recruiter it was going out and growing the business and bringing in new work because that's what I love to do and not to then go to that.
Said If my highest and best use was being a grinder I probably would have hired a business development person to. Augment that and I would have delivered the service instead so, I don't know that there's one roadmap my advice to anyone who's at a critical mass and going I'm having a capacity challenge. Is to say okay. Do, you want to keep having a capacity challenge. Or have a sales problem, you know which, either, or the pendulum is going to swing back and forth every day of the week as a small business owner and where's. Your highest and best use and put yourself there and hire to, augment that rather than trying to be a jack-of-all-trades so. I did add an assistant, but not until we had hired a consultant, and. The assistant was actually the fourth person that came on board and and knew I'm fairly new on the team because. My highest and best use is not administrative, work, which. We learned the hard way I think and decided. That we needed to talk about that but also I think revenue producing people is important too if you want to keep putting your foot on the guy yeah. I think that's really really good advice Katie so. For the consult listeners right now who goes. Yeah okay yeah I want to maybe I already have a couple of people on team or even a few people I want to hire, the next person or I want to even hire the first person but I've, had some bad experiences in, the past I'm. Looking I don't know necessarily how to find the right person and then when, I have maybe found some people how do I evaluate the mode be some. Best practices, that you would offer like just you definitely, shouldn't be thinking about this or you need to that in terms of finding good quality people and then be, able to evaluate them that they're gonna have, the highest, likelihood of success a, lot. Of this question this is my domain. It. Depends, on what the role is but, if you're hiring for say an assistant, or a junior, consultant, or somebody that's going to replicate you, hire. For your strengths, I think one of the things that I see clients do so often that is a misfire, is they hire for their weaknesses, with the thought process, well I'm not very good at X. So, I need somebody that's going to do that well oftentimes that creates a rub, especially in a small business where you're looking to scale and grow and you really need somebody to replicate, you and to be one voice you need to hire for your strengths and so, my advice is what, are your strengths I can. Tell you that I am very, driven. I have a very high sense of urgency winning. Really matters to me so, interviewing, my team I asked, questions like, what is winning mean to you what does it mean to achieve tell, me what your core values are and really diving into what what they are you know and if their work-life. Balance and, vacation, maybe, that's not the person for me because I need somebody that says you know winning at everything and working night and day to get the job done looking. For core value alignment, it's so foundational, because, your fourth hire is 25%, of your business. Talk. A little bit more about like that that part on making, sure that the kind, of culture the values there's, this alignment around that that makes a lot of sense me but it if you could expand a little bit more on you said don't, Hilux Locke you would fire based, on building, in their areas they're weakened and you said that you should be making sure that you're hiring also, into your strengths talk a little bit more like what do you mean about that. So. I, will give you an example so let's say you, want to hire a business development, person hey I'm at critical mass I'm a great doer, but I really need someone who can help me go out and get some new business you're. Going to need somebody with a sales skillset, skills. And a cultural alignment are two different things right skills are a culmination of past experience, and cultural, alignment is at my core what, are my values skills. Aside you want people that have that cultural, alignment with you and whatever that looks like because the last thing you want is a really really good salesperson that's, bringing in completely the wrong type of clients for your business right I mean that's going to be a disaster, and you're going to have a bunch of clients on your hand that you don't want to do work for, so.
I My advice is really to sit down and make, a list on a piece of paper if you if you're not at the point in your business where you actually have core values go. Through that exercise and figure out what's really important, you know what's our ethos ours is we do great work with great people super. Simple if you're not great people we don't want you as a client right. That's. Our first criteria, but, looking at what your values, are and you, know matching. That up with other people and really exploring, that through a solid energy process there, are also amazing, personality. Assessment. We, use a couple of them within our firm and apply, them with clients, as well that, can really help you kind of take a pulse on someone's, natural tendencies, and give some pretty quick insight on what's, the sense of urgency how, attention, to detail how patients, are they what's their introversion extraversion, level and that can really help as well that, you should use predictive indexes, out more the ones use we. Do we love addictive index and we're certified in that as well so everyone on my team is taking it we have several clients that are using it and. So. The. Consultants, thinking, okay I want to bring on someone I've identified that you. Know maybe I'm a doer and I, need a business develop person or vice, versa right I want someone who can implement and I want to do more of the strategy the vision you know the business development side of growing, the. Firm but, maybe they don't yet have in, their minds, the you. Know the financial ability to go out and hire, someone but as the level of skills, that they want to bring on right they they can't fork out an extra, hundred fifty or 200 thousand dollars plus or whatever to get kind of a superstar that they're after what's. Your, experience you're kind, of you. Know recommendation, around, bringing. On someone who maybe doesn't have the. Level, of skills they're looking for or have. You found more creative, ways or better, ways to position and approach someone who does have a higher skill set let me use don't have the financial ability to you know to invest, and hire them at, where they're currently at. Well. There's always getting creative, with looking for someone that wants to be a part-time part-timer. Women. That are we entering the workforce after having kids are a great underserved, market, where. I think you can gain a lot and frankly, I did that with one of my employees she. Was on maternity leave when I found her she came on board three days a week, so start ramped, up to four days a week as her onboarding, and now she's gone full time as the kids have gotten older and that that works really well for us and enabled me to kind of spread, out the financial burden as she was ramped up of course, that situation, isn't going to be I mean I got, really really lucky, but. It's out, there if you're looking in the right places and you're positioning, yourself in the marketplace the right way otherwise. I would say if you really want it figure out a way to make it happen even, if it means you know. Selling. Your car and getting a smaller, car. I think, you would probably reiterate. The same advice is that if you really want to you pull out all the stops to make it happen I'm. Not sitting here looking, at you with, a smile on my face saying, oh I only work 20 hours a week and I haven't made any sacrifices, I've made a lot of sacrifices and, I work until 10 o'clock last night but, don't, let me kid you you, know you got to take. Strategic, risks, and go for it in, a calculated way ya, know I think that that's that's a really good advice, you, know what would you say then to the. Person goes okay yeah again I want to bring someone on where. Do I find the right people like. Is. There a go-to should, have, you found that you guys have mean of course you're doing recruiting but let's say someone, doesn't want to go out and hire a recruiter necessarily, what are some of the alternatives are, there certain job sites that are good like should be on indeed com should they be on, post. On LinkedIn to, be tapping to their if their network should be doing like all those things because I'm a we're, not taught with coaching clients that are really scaling up their business I often, share with them like you should always be building your bench of talent and what I mean by that is building relationships even.
Though You're not going to hire that person today or maybe next week or next month the more people that you know that you could tap into later, on right that's just going to make that process a lot easier and smoother when you do have a an engagement that you want to put them into or kind, of hire them so what. Are some recommendations you, would have around where people could go or what they should be thinking about if they want to start building that bunch of talent now. Absolutely. I think the first thing is to go through an exercise of what do you really want and create some abundant, clarity around what that is and maybe, you need to hire one person and, it could go three different ways it could be a business development person it could be a doer it could be an admin let's say create, those three job description, and get, them out to your immediate network so those people know hey, you're. Looking, and they can start keeping an ear to the ground for you and then they're going to kind of fund you hey I ran across this person the other day and they said they might be interested and then you can interview if you find the right person it can be a strategy shift, you might think, you need business development, and land in the best assistant, and now you're you know hire that person and change your strategy. My. I, think. Almost all of my employees came by way of me throwing a line in the water to my network and saying I'm going, to be hiring this person later, on down the future who do you know I'm always, interviewing, I'm always, having. Coffee meetings and interviewing from my own team also just to make sure if. You're waiting. Until you know you have an opening you're already two months behind right. But if you're pipelining, which is what I'm hearing the advice you're saying you've, already got people on deck that you're talking to and you're sort of working through your lists all the time so, LinkedIn, is another great place to go to run, some searches, on you, know what's in the market you, might think you need something and then you might run a search in your local market you know oh there's only two of these people that have that skill set hmm. Well I either need to call both of them or I need to retool what I'm really looking for because this isn't a viable strategy for my business yeah. That's. Really good advice yeah if you all wouldn't, even do that until as you said they need it and then by that point it's too late and you, know not that it's too late but it's it makes it a lot more difficult like climbing an uphill you, know a big mountain as opposed to just continue, to you, know to push along and with, with, not so much incline another. Question. I guess I have for you Katie because clearly. You've you've been very successful in getting your business to where it is today many. Concerns like in fact actually I just had the conversation earlier today with a with a coaching client who is, you. Know newer to consulting, but, they're right away looking to build their team and a concern that they have is, they. Mentioned is that, because, they've been speaking to the marketplace and declines about, them doing all the work it's not yet a team, that. Clients. Would end have a concern, when, they start putting a team member on to projects, and this is quite common right this comes up a lot because if you start off as a consultant you think it's all about you you're doing all the work and then you're worried they're gonna lose a client the clients not gonna be happy if you start putting someone else kind of you know into that role what, has been your experience and.
Just What are your thoughts kind, of around that in terms of the best practice, for the. Consultant, being the founder of the you, know the consulting business owner to, be able to put other team members into projects, so that they don't need to be the ones doing everything themselves. First. Of all I want to acknowledge the fear because it's absolutely. Real we. Are are connect when is our company and our vision and it's so scary but. Going back to my advice about hiring for that core value alignment, if you get the right people in place that really reiterate. Your vision, and have that same values, that you do, the fear is better. It doesn't go away but it's definitely better and then you have this new fear oh no what if my client likes them more than they like me and then they and then my employee right. So, there's always going to be something to be afraid of get, push it aside because, you, know you're going to let it hold you back or you're going to just acknowledge the fear and press on, we've, been really lucky in that we've taken an integrated, approach my. Approach to onboarding, is that for the first 30 days my team does not is not expect to do any work which. Seems really crazy but. That's the investment that I wanted to make and I want you to understand, our business I want you to really get, your feet under you with no expectation, of production, and I'm just going to watch you learn, and you're, eventually going to start taking things on and. Both times that we've done this with in the first or second week we have a producing, employee that's coming up with ideas and saying well here's ways I can add value but it really alleviates, the pressure and. Then start bringing them out to clients making, that introduction, partnering. With them getting. That human leverage is a time-consuming process but now I have, employees. On-site with clients where I'm not on site anymore and they're just updating me on what's going on we. Do still have a process, that I always want to know what happening because. If the client calls me I better be able to answer a question or have a mechanism to turn around and answer real quick on what's going on and some, of its just kind of relinquishing control. Which. Is terrifying, this. Idea, that. Hey no. One else is going to be able to do it like I am that's. Just a fact and it doesn't mean that it's not going to be better than the way I'm going to do is just not going to be exactly the same and that's okay but, we also have, a process handbook. We, have defined, core values, we have processes, for getting together on a regular basis, and sharing information because, my team is fairly remote out. On site at clients so there's mechanisms, in place so that I don't feel like I have rogue people, running around and I'm not I don't know what's happening well. Just take us back the main - the first time, or the first few you know situations. Where you had a client you were working with especially. An existing client and you then you want to introduce a, new team member into that project with, the idea of that new team member actually taking over your direct involvement, with. That client and kind of in that project what.
Do You do what you learn how to how did you position, it successfully. So the client accepted, that without you, know too much kind of objections. I'm. Thinking of a specific example and I actually really involved, the client in the whole process so I told the client I'm going, to be extending, an offer to somebody I'm really excited I hope that we land her I hope she accepts the, offer letter and then, the next time I spoke with the client they were kind of invested, and they said well did she accept him is she coming on board and I said she did and she is and if. It, works for you I want to introduce you to her and next time I'm out here next week I'm going to bring her along and they said yeah absolutely so they were kind of invested, into the success of my wind right, out of the gate it wasn't like I did it in a silo and then said surprise I kind of made them a part of the process which. Was really kind of fun and, then we, started transitioning. You. Know the relationship, meetings, I stayed involved for a while and held that employee built trust and now I think you, know she's off to the races and had better relationships, probably than I do with that client and knows more about the client than I do which, is great, yeah. Not that's a really good example of it I think that involving. The client is saying those expectations making. It part of it from the beginning is. So, I mean it's just it's a great way to do it because it's, like if you're rolling, out a new service, right rather than just rolling out a new service that you think what in your own mind for any of your clients involved not in making them part of it often leads to a more kind of successful adoption. Of it as well. Right. Yeah. I mean and it's unique with us being and hiring also, because we're hiring for our clients and we're hiring for ourselves so I think there's we, want each other to be successful, I mean I look at our goal as a consultant, for our clients is to help them get further up the mountain you know and were their Sherpa and a number of ways to make that happen that's, what I'm doing as the CEO of my company also, so my clients are my partner than that and I want them to feel good about you. Know the people that are on their team that. Buy-in is really crucial awesome. Okay, I want to thank you for coming on here and just sharing you know some of your journey and wisdom, and best practices, that you've kind, of collected along the way here where, should people go to learn just more about you and your company. Sure. You can visit us on the web at hire hir. E education. Consulting, comm hir. E education. Consulting, comm, links to videos all of our social media stuff, is there we, have some fun giveaways and, some resources you can download on the web also release the interview guides and hiring and things like that fantastic. All right so we'll, make sure to have all that linked up in the show notes and. Just to go to a consulting, success com type in KT, you'll, likely find it if not you can type in KT McConnell, Olsen but it'll. Be there and we'll. Have everything linked up and the resources available there as well so good. Stuff Katie thanks so much again for coming on. Awesome. Thank you.