Using Anthropology To Change The Way Business Is Run
I produce, this. Webinar. To. Talk to people about the kind of work that we do at Simon associates, management, consultants to help organizations, change. And. Change. Is something that people hate. The. Brain hates it the. Culture hates it and the organization, has a hard time implementing. Even, good ideas, so. Let me take you through this and see if it helps you understand, how a little anthropology, could help you in fact successfully. Change your organization. Our. Job is, to develop, high-performing. Organizations. And. We believe that they really thrive by, unleashing the talent, passion and potential, of people at work this. Wonderful, research that I can, share with you about how, the. Nature, of the organization itself. Can bring out the great ideas, that people carry with them and why, that's so important, because at, the end of the day you only have staff and they, have all the, opportunity. To help you grow in different ways. So. Let's. See if we can do this there we go, so. In this workshop my job is to help you understand, first the pain and challenges, of change and, why do we just hate to do it and the, second thing that the building blocks needed to change people, and I, say this very intentionally. It's, the way they see things. Because we buy with, the heart and how it feels the. Eyes and the heart are connected, it's experiential. And if. In fact they can see it in fresh ways they, can think about it and then do. It ultimately. This is about their culture, and culture. Isn't something, that's outside of them it's the essence of who they are I often. Get calls from HR, directors, bless their hearts and they. Call because, they say help, I have. A new CEO and, he wants me to change the culture and so, I ask so, what's the problem, and that, HR person typically, says I don't really know what the culture is today a, my. Answer to that is well what would the new CEO like it to become and she, said I'm not sure but, it isn't working now so, a new culture is what we need to get a jump started. Typically. They'll say a little bit of more innovative. More, results-oriented. Or hard driving, different. From whatever it was or, they think it is and. So today's, a little talk it's, really about what else could we do for them to make this very. Difficult. Thing succeed. Because, they don't really know where they're going and how to get there many. Clients come to us because the times they are changing and, they, realize, that they are and they, know they have to adapt their, clients, are changing, there's consolidation. In the business there's new technologies. That are coming onboard all kinds. Of things that are causing the need for adaptation. This. Little chart on the right here maybe, on your left is from, Thomas Friedman's, book thank you for being late which is a wonderful, read but. As you can see this, is not new but the rate of change is a big hockey stick, and a, human's ability to adapt is, a much slower it's, not something terrible, or remember. The method, for taking. Bread and slicing, it was developed thirty five years, before, they were actually using it so. Wonder Bread took 35, years to convert a loaf of bread into sliced bread and then, make it successful, you. Know I don't care whether it was post-it, notes or it, was Purell or, wd-40. A new, idea isn't by itself a success, until, people, begin to understand, how to use it adapt, to it and change. Our.
Proprietary. Process called a change map process is a change, management, strategy. And. What we believe is that you need to think backwards what. If we worked with you could, happen as your. Organization, faces change, by. Analyzing. The changes, you want to make. Visualizing. Them seeing. How the rest of your whole company is affected. You can begin to get ready for the changes. And you, can prepare your teams and your talent, in advance and guide them through the transition, think. Of this as a play they, are all playing Macbeth really. Tomorrow. You want them to play Hamlet they, don't have a script it's no rehearsal, time they don't know their roles but somehow you want, them to become skilled at being a whole, new role player on a new stage performing. A new play it's. Not that easy and just. The idea they. Can all be like Robert, Redford and play many roles but. They aren't sure how you do that, actors, spend a lot of time learning their skills how, are you going to teach your guys to, change theirs and, this. Is about the scariest, place for people to be. Scary. Because the most dangerous place for humans is to be twist in between they, don't like ambiguity. And so, consequently when, they're betwixt in between they, are most uncomfortable. Now. Why is changed, so challenging. When. You are changing, something in somebody's, way, of doing things quite, frankly it isn't a task it. Is the essence, of who they are it's. Really embedded. In their whole interactions. With others humans, are cultural, creatures, and it really makes a big difference. We. Don't see things as they are we see things as we are remember. When we're born we don't know much about anything, and as, we grow up every time we look in the mirror we see beautiful we. See big and strong, we're, not small and weak and. Once we begin to develop that mind map of our reality, we sort everything else to conform, to it we, want to be with other people like us we, think that we are beautiful and we want others who look like us to join us, we. Also are creatures have happens, well. We think we have a lot of choice, often. We have the paradox, of choice it's too many choices the. Most efficient. Way for us to get through the day is a well honed habit, and so, while. We, think, that we are making up the day if you look at your own day and the, task you do in a week they're pretty repetitive I bet, you even spend the same amount of money in the supermarket, every week we, buy the same products, and we're most comfortable, not having to think about things in, part. Because your brain hates to change I often. Tell people that you hire, and then you hate us because. The whole essence of what we're trying to do is help you see things with fresh eyes and your. Brain is working hard, to shut us down. We. Also join. Others like us remember, we look in the mirror and we see ourselves in a particular way we, go to find others who look and sound and feel like us so we sound the same we, fly in the same kind of herds and we begin to think in the same way that. Comfort, of the herd we often talk about is our culture, so. When you begin to think about changing, the culture you're changing, the essence of who we are and many. Companies, now are trying to diversify their, staff, well. What you might look at is at lunchtime it is that diversity, sit together or, do they find their own little cliques of people who are like them and turn. Into little mini ghettos, within the company itself I say, that gently because people are birds of a feather and they flock with others who they share common values beliefs, and personal. Identities. Now. This culture, is the. Way you think, act and interact, it's. Extremely, important that you begin to understand, that when you're going to try and change something, you're. Changing, the way you think you act and you interact. Successful. Firms research. Will show you have. Cultures, that reduce uncertainties. People. Come in every day the habits take over and, people know what the social order is they, know what to expect. They know what their boss will say what their customers, need what their jobs are it, creates, great continuity, it's, a core values, and norms it's what makes us human it's.
A Collective, identity and a commitment, to those things that we believe are valued. By this organization, it. Has a vision for the future it, energizes. Forward, movement, but. The wrong culture can take you down the wrong path and. Cultures. Hate change. The. Values, beliefs and behaviors, are the. Way. You will be, new things here they're sacred they're. Not casual, and have the continuity and the consistency, that you love and. You have a clear, sense of agreed-upon, values. So. Cold sure we'll eat up all the kinds of things you want to change. But. There are culture, can foster adaptability. And innovation, it. Can, provide a clear set of principles, to follow when designing, new, strategies. To deal with new situations but. You have to have an innovative culture to do that, innovative. Companies, build a culture of idea generation, methods, for testing prototypes, for. Approaching two, approaches. To engage around new methods, it's. Very, interesting, because when, you try and ask people to come up with new ideas and turn them into innovations. They. May have the ideas but, they may not have any way of training them into innovations, we, worked with one major auto. Moe automobile. Manufacturer. Parts, for, cars and they had missed the aluminum, rise, in car manufacturing, they made it out of Steel and they. Had a very hard time beginning, to see how to bring innovation, into, a 50 year old company that was very successful at doing something that wasn't going to be needed anymore so. They put the head of engineering into. The head of innovation, and he. Fried he. Was just the wrong person, there, are discoverers, and delivers, and the cultures, they work in are very different so. This great, engineer, who was great at delivering things was, the wrong person, to cry try and create an innovative culture. Now. We always hear about different, departments, having different, subcultures. This. Is not crazy because it happens, marketing, is different than sales is different than, manufacturing. Is different than finance, and accounting that's, all well and good as long, as there's something that's shared across the whole organization. Because. It's. A glue and, so. When you think about archetypes. I like, IKEA. Is in every man's culture, Jeep. Is an explorer's, culture, Haagen, Dazs is warm, friendly, in caregiving. Culture, I mean, cultures, emerge, and heavens pouring around it and they, are socially, contracted, constructive, attributes. Of an organization, so, once you begin to build your story it becomes, a way we think feel and behave. Most. Of the time we go about our daily life unaware. Of what our culture is that's. Why when those HR folks called and I asked what, is your culture now, and. Not quite sure what that word means. Sometimes. I'll make up a story about it but, by and large until, it's challenged. Like that CEO challenging. It or. They go and experience, a new and which is so helpful. That's. Why bringing people from other cultures, is often, very useful as, long as they just don't adopt them when they've entered, or. Cultures, made overt and explicit, through a framework a model and that's, framework. Or models what I want to talk about, one. Last thought here how, people. Give meaning to daily life is the essential, role of culture. Now. It enables, different people to share common values and beliefs out of. Which come these repetitive behaviors. Habits and clear expectations, I did, some work for Starbucks and, they, were trying to change the culture but. They called in the numbers every morning, and the, idea of having innovative.
Macchiatos, Was not very, appealing so. There was a disconnect, between what they aspired, to and what they were going to be able to do, for. You the. Question is is your organization, of today the right one for tomorrow so. Quickly. Let me tell you about the OCA, I the. Organizational. Cultural assessment instrument, and how, we diagnose, and change a culture the. Method, was developed at, the University of Michigan by dr. Kim Cameron and dr. Robert Quinn, they. Found. Tremendous. Research in well over 10,000. Companies have used that methodology. But. They found there were four dominant types, of culture for organizations. I'll. Take you through this left to right, starting. With a hierarchical, controlling. Culture, and I'll. Talk to you about the specifics, in a moment, but just think about the. Post office or, a bank, the. Opposite, of that is in adhocracy that's, a very creative culture. My. Entrepreneurial. Companies, are very, creative. At hoc lots, of empowerment. The. Clans are very collaborative my family firms had 49 family, members working there and collaboration. Was what they all aspired, to they. Really got lots done, unlike. Their market competitors, who are so outwardly focused and really looking at what the competition. Is doing and how, to make, their market share grow and how to deal with the customers, aggressively. Now. This is a very, important, model because. You'll find often that the competitors. The market driven companies, like my commodities, trader we're, so good at making money they could collaborate much, at all and those. Firms that were great at collaborating, often, didn't get anything done I've had those as well and the, entrepreneurs, often needed rules from the hierarchical, type a that managed, them where, they never got any results there, is no perfect culture, but, there are blends and balances, for, your company, at the right time, now. The OCA, a online.com. Is, where you can go take this survey. That I'm going to talk about because. What came out of the work from, dr. Cameron and dr.. Quinn was a model. That, you can take, a survey, about. And. Out of the survey will come a graph and. Will show you what your culture is today and, what you would prefer it to be I urge, you it's free for just one of you so, take the OCA I -, online.com. And, see. What, it is that you're all about. This. Is what you'll see when, the chart is produced, you'll. See what, your profile, is now you'll. Have a hundred points, to divide up among six.
Different Categories and then, what you would prefer it to be in. This, particular, case as you, can see they, talk to the Klan to stay pretty much the same, but. They wanted much more innovation, empowerment. Enrichment. Vision, and they. Wanted controls, and hierarchy, those. Are significant. Differences a little. More market we want still results, but. Clearly a top-down, organization was, ready for a change. I'm. Going to let. You see these briefly, and go through them so you can hear what the differences, are but. Keep in mind that when you start, getting into this we'll go into it much it more deeply for you and. On hoc receipts creative, focus, on, the external, competition. Innovation. They're, flexible, entrepreneurs. Very. Much encourages, individual, initiative, freedom. Empowerment. Creative, problem-solving. Working. With one company now that wants to improve their creative. Problem-solving. And empowerment. The. Glue is commitment to experimentation. And innovation, how. Much is often the question they. Want to be on the leading edge, not, the bleeding, edge but. They sure do one a little bit more innovation. Happening and, they want to gain unique new products, or services. It. Encourages. Individual. Initiative, and freedom, dynamic, entrepreneurial, place to work we're. Working with one company and they, realize that they have so drowned out the creativity. That, they've got lots of rules and processes but no original, thinking. They. Are controlling. Hierarchical. And process, driven the rules rule there's. A lot of internal, maintenance, for needs for stability and control. Excellent. Coordinators, organizers. Efficient. When. I did this for the family firms, the only, family. Firms that were really hierarchical, and controlling, were banks. And I said oh that's cool I'm, great, at getting organized, secure, employment predictability. Very. Formalized, structure place to work not unlike those banks. Dependable. Delivery I even had a cement. Manufacture, in Mexico, who, really, reflected, this didn't, want to stay this way very. Dependable, delivery, smooth, scheduling, low cost inwardly. Focused, so. Inwardly focus, and disciplined, this, particular cement. Company wasn't getting the results they need it and couldn't hire any young people who, wanted, to work in a controlling, hierarchy, this. Is about improving quality and, cutting costs out of production a nailin company. Market. Competitiveness. You. Have to think of this as my commodities, traders but it may be a company, that you're in as well, externally. Focused results. Driven. Hard. Drivers. Producers, competitors. Tough and demanding, they. Really, are goal-oriented, they, focus, on customer, customer, focused. Competition. Results. Emphasis. Is on winning they. Want market share penetration. They want to be the top of the rest it's. Very. Very, based. On reputation. And success, nothing. Wrong with it but. Sometimes you need to do it collaboratively. Now. Collaboration. Is really, useful unless it becomes the only thing you do we, had one a transportation. Engineering, firm and one of their offices, were all into collaboration, they. Really, cared about people they, just forgot to get anything done so it's interesting when you get to the extreme, what happens but. Here you have father's and mentors internally, focused but flexible, this. Is involvement, engagement lots, of teamwork very. High commitment and solidarity. Sensitive. To customers, and a concern for people. Places. A premium on teamwork, participation. In consensus. Let. Me give you an illustration of, how this might work so. An. Accounting, firm. Imagine. Your clients, and their taxes. And their accountant. Now. They're. Both looking at, what. Watson is doing to H&R Block uncovering, every deduction available, using. Watson, artificial. Intelligence, machine. Learning it's. Able to understand, all 74,000. Pages of the tax code, thousands. Of yearly tax law changes, locks. And deep insights, from 600, million data points the.
Data Is going to help you get a really. Good tax return very, low cost highly. Precise, very. Easy to deliver, you. Get your credit your check as you walk out the door on top, of that they're looking at compliance automation. Software the, answer to rising compliance, costs we were down in North Carolina at an accounting, firm that specialized, in compliance. But. Some of the big four are already coming up with automated. Solutions, to compliance management. Their. Clients. Are, looking. To move to the cloud. But. They're not quite sure if it's secure or how to do it but QuickBooks is going to insist on it now. The question whether its. Billing comm or its, quickbooks online but. There are really important, changes, coming to how you're going to run your financials, and you're. Often, your controller is getting older and not the one who necessarily wants, to do this, the. Clients, are changing, as well owners. Were growing older. 67%. Of America's businesses, are owned by boomers there's. Going to be huge consolidations. As they cash out or they. Hand it off to their, their, Gen X's or the generalize there. Are lots of young entrepreneurs starting. Up many of whom were women, the. Well-established firms, were breaking apart the. Staff, or their clients were growing older and not. Very adaptive, to the new things that were coming and the, next generation, was often taking over and wanted. To be with others just like them then. You had the gen Y's, these. Are new young. Accountants, who are coming into the business very. Ambitious. But. Also had different styles and grown up digital did. Work differently. And then we had a great big economy, a third. Of American workers engaged in its freelancing. By, 2024. In 10 91. Million Americans, are can be engaged in quick gigs, this. Is going to be a very different place for hiring people for. Just-in-time work, and for, the kind of people who are you gonna hire. Now. The question, became, can. We retire as partners.
Managers. Loved working remotely but did, their staff benefit. From it the, rules of before felt awkward but maybe that was what was needed what, kind of culture should this organization, get. It's. Time for change a new company culture what. Did that mean remember. The four types well. We had many, of their key leadership take, the OSI AI and. We began to see some major changes. So. I'll give you the top line here as you. Can see on the, left, one. Of the partners wanted to be more innovative and results-oriented. A little. Less collaborative, and controlling. A little, bit more outwardly focused. Another. Person actually wanted, to I'm become more structured, a, third. One on the right was one, of the partners who really wanted to abandon all those rules and create self-starters. Here. There was somebody who managed, a a real, new division, who wanted much more collaboration. Teamwork and innovation, and then, one of the other partners wanted a balance but still moving, toward that AHA cracy in the market. The. Question became what kind of culture did they really want and that. Future leader saw something, very powerful that was more innovative and empowering, but. How are the staff going to actually do it. What. Do we do when we learn all of this what, does this mean for changing. Your company, well. We're going through a time of transformation, the. Major. Transformation. Taking place in business. Remember. We went from mechanization. Water power and steam powder and then we went to mass production, and Henry Ford, creating. The assembly, line, adding, electricity, and processes. And steamrolling. Ways of getting it done then. We had the computer in automation, and now. We have cyber cyber, physical, systems. All. Kinds, of things coming blockchain. Artificial. Intelligence mechanization. Robots, and, each. Type of culture, has helped us adapt. But. The question becomes now what does that mean for a company going forward today, what. Is this all going to do for you. Trust. Me that this is not about thinking. Harder, or sitting in your office, the. Real voyage, of discovery consists. Not in seeking new, landscapes but, in having new eyes I cannot. Urge you enough to, get out of your office and go see what's going on with, your own customers, spend. Time in. Their own offices, go. Out and watch non customers. Doing things see, what you can learn even from hanging out at a baseball game or being, a coach for a little league team, this. Is the time of the great accelerator, that blue. Graph was the way things were before things.
Emerged They. Had a maturity, you, had a late maturity, in the laggards, blockbusters. One of my favorite they could have owned Netflix, they, didn't see them as anything, other than a nuisance. Right. You, have it maybe a blackberry, they. Had no idea what Apple was going to create why. The. Red is the world today it's. Coming fast we used to call it a fad you, have merge you surge and, then you're purged and then another one comes along this. Is not time to sit still. And the whole office, that you're in and all the people are working with you are probably looking more like the left, which. Is Zappos, versus, the one on the right which, is the way it used to be, now. With. That in mind if. You want to take your talented staff and create a different type of organization. You're. Gonna have to do something, I love, this little, cartoon, what, if we don't change it all something. Magical just happens. Expect. Them to throw up four pearls a, cognitive. Hurdle a motivational. Hurdle a resource. Hurdle and a political hurdle what. Could happen people. Just throw up the hurdles. They. Will tell you I will change my mind and my behaviors, if I see my leaders colleagues, and staff behaving, differently and, they, marry each other I will. Change my mind and my behaviors, if I, understand. What's being asked, of me and it makes sense people. Seek congruence, between what, they believe and why they have to change why. Matters. A lot I, will. Change my mind and my behaviors, if you develop, my talent and skills and I teach me new ways to do things and I. Will change my mind and my behaviors. If I see changing, the organization structures. The, way we do things the rewards. And recognition, and, the way we celebrate achievements. You. Need to change for me to believe I, should as well. This. Comes out of Vital smarts an award-winning, process, well documented and really, well researched, about exactly. This stuff there. Are two dragons in two areas here motivation. And ability. So. How do you change you. Need a process on the. First line it's personal, how, do you motivate them, by making the undesirable. Desirable. And, then. How do you give them the skills, so. They have the ability to change. Social. How do you harness peer, pressure so people see each other doing this and begin, to mimic them and then. How do you create the social support, the. Mentors, the coaches, and the, training that they can continue to work on and believe that they're doing better and better how. Do you align rewards, and assure accountability which. Should not be underestimated and, then, how do you change the environment and celebrate. What's going on so. Let me go into this in some depth and then, I'll wrap this for you how. Do you make the undesirable. Desirable. This. Is not about finding new people but. At times you're gonna have to this. Is about changing, how people see, feel, and think, about things before they, do it and it. All starts with a news story that, can be shared and lived remember our brains create, stories, the, one they have for today and the habits that drive their day aren't, the ones you want them to have tomorrow. So. Yeah visualize a news story, making. The undesirable, desirable, you, better draw a big picture of it visualize. It I often, ask a client what, would you like to see happen in six months or a year visualize. It create. A big, picture. Physically. But. Begin to see this as something that's actually going to happen what. Will you have will you have an Innovation, Lab will, you have an idea Bank how, will you begin to build innovation, skills so your people can take an idea and convert, it into an execution, what. Does this mean for action, and then.
Develop Their skills. Relevant. Skills this, isn't sending them off to a class, this. Is this, is getting a system in place where people can learn from each other and people. Can coach and mentor them so, they can begin to be accountable, for change. Wise. Explain. Everything over and over again when. People know why the change, is necessary they, stop resisting. Explaining. Why shows. Them that you care, and you have a steam for them and, then. Help, them get ready for change. Get. Them anticipating. It begin. To have small. Preparation. For it creating. Readiness, may be essential, because that way they are positive. About anticipating, it instead. Of being resistant. To it. Small. Winds are so helpful, it. Builds skills it's like rehearsal time, some. Things are easy to change find, them change, them and celebrate, how well they did to change, it's. Very much practice, time. Then. Don't forget you, need accountability, you, want the entire team, that works, together to begin to have timeframes. For changes, that they're. Going to make sure are complete, design. The follow-up, and the reporting. Don't, let change be some day, it will never happen if, in fact you have a date time, by which you'll do something 65, to 70 percent of them will get done if you. Hope it. Will never happen. Then. You need to over communicate visually. This. Is about pictures people, see and understand. Better than what they hear, words. Are fine but they process. Them in their current brain map so. They need something new share. As much as you can regularly, and as broadly as possible over. Determine, success there. If there's no information remember. People, will make up a story now. Make up one where they're the hero you're the problem and they, can tell you why it's not working I don't. Know why but they prefer to undermine you then help you to succeed you. Need. The right measures. Make. Sure you don't just stick to the old measures, you're. Going to have to think about what the new measures are to succeed. Define. The gathering, of data and, a time frame for assessing, results. Often. If you're going to be a more collaborative, innovative. Organization. How will you know it's happening how, will you measure it every. Time somebody, really. Isn't competitive. By themselves, without engaging some. Others will, you mark that in some way you know it's a little like Weight Watchers you, gotta count and take it and you have to begin to count and then take your weight at the end of the week. Now. You're going to hold a funeral, sometimes. It's important, to stop something that people reflect. On, as. Being, important, and this, becomes real important. Respected. Celebrate. The past but, also make the transition, to the future. The. Right symbols, really, matter this. Becomes very important. Now. Let's, talk about symbols. Remember. Humans are, symbolic. Creatures. If. This is very important, for them to have meaning, and. When. You're thinking about changing your culture, you ought to think about changing, the meaning of those, things that you're going to celebrate, things. That are important, that, signify, the new culture think carefully about what. Will we create. To, recognize, the small wins the, big wins the new culture, what. Is it that's going to be more innovative, or collaborative, that you're going to turn into a ritual, of some kind humans. Love their rituals, their stories, and the symbolism, it, isn't inconsequential. It's essential.
Now. What's. Equally, important, is. That this is not a gig so. Think. About this people. Find, comfort in their culture it's safe they, don't like ambiguity. They. Love it even when they're frustrated by the way it works you'll, hear it all the time I really don't like the way it works but, that's the way we do it here and their, brains hate to change so. Do their habits, it requires, energy they want you to go away that's not fun, but. If you can create a change map strategy, you may find that it is fun and then. It's enough fun so that you have a process, to actually do. It so to, take you through, the process briefly, as we conclude, starting. With the first, part is to visualize, the future you're. Gonna have to create an image a story think of it as a movie set where you gonna play all kinds of new acting, roles to put it all together but. It's real important, that you think about making the undesirable. Desirable, you, want to be more innovative or, results-oriented. Or. More collaborative, or you want to really create better, processes. To take the efficiency, out what, do you want to see happen how will you know it is happening. Explain, why. Over. And over again don't. Think that's saying it once at a staff meeting is sufficient, it's, necessary. For people to hear the story over and over as if your marketing, and advertising to. Them plan. Small wins to learn and test the results, because. The sooner they can see it actually working for. Example let's talk about being more collaborative, we. Want to have a whole different way of making decisions, really. Solving, complex problems by engaging people from different departments not. In silos but, across the different departments, and we even want to begin to, have customers. Collaborate. With us on the solutions, so, they buy into it and in fact they help us design it better you. Better have something work like that and then, see how it happens, maybe. You can coach a facilitating, trade along the way but. Think about all the steps to, begin to motivate, and develop, the abilities. Of the people who you want to do this peer. Pressure, this, is about what others are doing they're gonna watch figure. Out who the influential. People, are and engage. Them as leaders in the process, if, not, they will be very happy to undermine it for you underneath, they. Will make sure they sabotage, it because. They will pretend that they're in control and you're not actually, they won't pretend they will be and, you need to overcome that, overcome. Over communicate celebrate, hold, a funeral to say goodbye to past practices, and, you know balance, this show, respect, you've been doing this for a long time we, respect, the way we've done it but we do. Goodbye. And starting, something new that we endorse. And the.
Metrics, Matter we're all data junkies, if you. Don't, have good metrics, and, they will figure out ways to really show that you're not doing a good job and. If you have good metrics it's gonna be hard to argue with it I want. To thank you for the opportunity, to sharing, with you what we do and how we do it when, it comes to changing, organizations. There, are other tools that we'll bring along innovation. Games for example are, great fun but they and they allow, us to help build lots, of innovative, ideas we, often, take people out to go culturally, exploring, spend. A day in the life of a customer, but. Those are four other webinars, that we'll share with you for. Today though this is more than enough for. You to start to think about how perhaps we could help you and what. That might mean in the process, thanks. Again for paying attention and giving us your thoughts bye. Bye now.