Transforming the Workplace: Women in Leadership
Well, hello thank you and welcome everybody, it's really exciting to get together to talk about what is really an important, topic with a group of people who I can't, imagine a more appropriate. Group of people to bring together to talk about this. Issue I. Think as we all know from our own organizational. Experience, it's really difficult to attract and retain, women. And promote, them especially into, leadership and that's what we're here to talk about more today. What. Was especially interesting. Is that it's, it's been difficult to do so despite, the growing evidence of the benefits, of gender diversity in organizations. A recent. Report. Came, out by Morgan Stanley, showing, the annualized. Returns, of highly, gender, diverse, organizations. Relative, to their less gender. Diverse competitors, and they show that practically, in every industry there's, a financial, benefit, to being more gender, diverse on average it's about 2%, but, tech companies, can. Enjoy. About an, average of 5% greater, annual, relative, returns as a function, of being gender. Diverse, and. According, to the research that we do at Carnegie Mellon we, find that this is due in part to the benefits, that having, gender, diversity, has. For, collaboration. So, in our work we look at the collective intelligence of, groups and we've, examined it as a function of how, many men versus women are in the group and what, we find is that groups that have. Gender. Diversity with, a slate tilt, toward women having more women than men collaborate. Much more effectively, than, groups that are not, gender diverse or that, are predominantly. Male, so. Despite this growing, evidence. Base, for the benefits of gender diversity we. Still see that most. Industries, are really, struggling to accomplish. This and so, before. I show, you a little more data actually, if we can bring up the first poll question. We'd. Be curious to know what you think in terms of how different, industries, are doing on this, and so if you can weigh in on which, industry you think has the largest percentage of female leaders. So.
Decidedly. Not. All. Right well let me show you what, some. Recent, research is found. So. We we do find that actually you have pretty good intuition. Finance does in fact have, more. Women in leadership than. Relative, to other sectors, so. In looking at this graph here the first bar is just the percentage of employees that. Are women and since, you know women, are 50%, of the population, we. See that a lot of industries are struggling to get up to 50% female, employees, but, then as you move to the orange bar that's the percentage, of women and management, that bar next to that is the percentage, of women executives. And then, the darker blue is the percentage of women on the board. What. We can see here is that technology. Is pretty far down the list well. Behind, Finance. Telecom. Utilities. Energy. Places. That we you know would think are more, traditional. And. And as you can see pretty much all industries, are struggling, to be even at 20%. Female. Leadership. So. This leads us to our first question that I want to address. To, the panelists, why. Is this the case despite. All of the evidence of, how much these organizations, would benefit from having more women in, leadership positions, why. Don't we have more women in leadership and. You, want to start us off on a try well so, so, I actually think that this is a multi-dimensional, answer. In terms of why we don't see more women in leadership across, across. These different industries I captured, in what I call the six, SS so many I try and summarize. This so the first couple, of essays is around, around. Systems write and surround, so, what I mean by that is you know we have a tendency to surround ourselves with people that are most like us that, we're most comfortable, right and so I feel, that there's. A definite, issue as we especially, move into the management ranks around that, that dimension, I'm in addition to that in terms of environmentally, systems, wise you, know we have a system where within each of these industries, each company each organization, there's, a paradigm around what that corporate, ladder or that ladder for success is when in actuality, everybody's.
Individual, Path should, be different you know I think some of us have heard about the, corporate, lattice, instead, of the, corporate ladder I actually like to thank as relates to women we should be talking about the corporate lace right. No two pieces are the same right. As should no two careers, so that's kind of the first dimension is the environment, the, second one is really around support, and sponsorship, you, know we've heard a lot about you, know women needing to lean in more and be much more active. As it relates to their careers, but, we haven't heard a lot about what. Support, systems we should put in place for them right as we ask them to take more risks be, more confident, what are those safety, nets that we put in place and what true sponsorship. Right, versus, just a mentorship or coaching, can, we actually put out there they're very very different and the blast is really around, sensitivities. Itself, which is all within ourselves certainly, speaking as a woman, you. Know sometimes, I find that the worst enemy, is myself in my head right, and so I think we also have to help women work on their confidence, through their experiences. Through taking, more risk and. Through really, through it throughout their lives as they're progressing their careers we also have to address that dimension, so I feel like it's very much, multi-dimensional, three. Dimensions if you are around just this important, question Wow. No I think those are really great points. Cori, Cathy, anything, you want to add yeah for me look. That is that's, a really broad question right, we probably could spend the next two days sort. Of opining on that it's easier for me to be really clear about the things, reasons. Probably. The inverse of that it, is clearly not the reason one. Is that. There is absolutely. At. Least I believe that strongly and I think research supports, it, there, is no difference so it's not that men, somehow have this innate, ability to. Lead better. Than, women it's, really clear and that's and I know in my messaging, inside of business and outside of business, always leave with that so, there's there's no innate, ability, that men have that women don't have around. Leadership. The. Second point is in terms, of the intellect, in, the capability, of being a successful leader no, different right. No difference between the two and so a young, you know and I have both I have a 15. Year old son and a 13 year old daughter so. My own personal experience, in my household, when they were both born neither. One of them had leadership stamped, on their head and. My son is 15 he, clearly doesn't have a stamping a. Lot. Like his father, so. I always start with that clearly it's not those two things something. Else if you don't mind I think, it's worth mentioning you, showed us some data at, the beginning right then makes the case. You. Know with empirical evidence, that organizations. Should strive to have more women in leadership roles, one, of the things that I've found since I've been in this role is that, as much of that data we have to make the case for diversity and inclusion, specifically. From women or any other segments, that. That's really, not what's, going to change the mindset, or folks that don't already believe that and. And, what I've been doing and you may have seen this research as well. Social. Psychologists. A guy by the name of Jonathan hate, I don't know if any of you have heard of him, he's.
A Moral psychologist. And what, he's done a ton of research on this issue around. The world across cultures, etc, and, one of the things he's been really clear about in this research shows is. We've all heard this, stereotype. That. Women make, decisions based, on what. Emotions. Right. And then men tend to make these decisions based, on reasoning, and logic what. His research, empirical, research has, been really clear about is that you can throw that out that's. Nonsense. All of us make decisions, based, on emotions first and then we turn around and use our reasoning, to justify, and rationalize the, emotional decision that we just made okay. And that's across gender. That's across cultures, geography. It doesn't matter so, I know you're thinking core widen heck are you bringing it up why does that matter I think, it matters because those, of us that are real trying, to reshape the, workplace. And drive. The right thinking around diversity and inclusion, then, what that means to us is the. Other part of his research said. Look if you know that these decisions these belief sets that we form are based. On emotions, and intuition, the. Research also showed the only way the most effective, way to change that is with. An alternative. Emotional. Experience. Not. Data. Not. Not logic. Not reasoning, that it's just shown research is showing it it doesn't really change that person so I bring that up in this context, if there is a leader somewhere, in our business, or in any of our businesses, who, has this fundamental, belief that women, cannot, be as successful leaders, as men showing. Them those charts showing them that data the likelihood, of that change, in their perspective is pretty low but. If I can make sure I create, an environment, or a situation, where that leader who thinks that way believes that way gets, an opportunity to, work with one of the women like the ones on this stage some. Fantastic. Female leader in our business then, their mind starts, to change because, that's an emotional, experience and it changes their perspective which, changes their behavior and then we see that propagate, across the organization, really. Interesting. Perspective thank, you for that I'm gonna add a, little bit of a personal touch around we. Have got to have this issue move, from. Novelty. To norm I know. A couple years ago when I became the CEO of Deloitte the first woman CEO in our history in the history of our profession. I. Knew, it was a big deal to me, personally, I had no idea what a big deal it was outside, in, and by. The way the art of handwritten letters, is not dead, I got, handwritten letters from CEOs, to college students to grandfathers, of college students asking for their grandson to get a job and and, everything in between. But, you know this is about pipeline. This is about you know confidence. And courage and all that stuff but let me tell a quick story if you haven't heard the Justin Trudeau story I think it's worth just just, repeating, so it's a great lesson for us around how we drive women's leadership to a higher level so. Justin. Trudeau hailed as a hero because 50 percent of his case his. Women, so, he. Gets up and he says I'm not the hero what. Happened, was four years before I, even, got, elected. The, Prime Minister of Canada he said my party, noticed, there, weren't enough women in elected. Leader roles in Canada, so, they went, knocking, on doors, to. Get women to raise their hand and run for public office so. He said four years later when I become Prime Minister as, I looked, at the pool of qualified candidates, that had that experience. 50%, of them happened to be women so, I thought that was a pretty powerful lesson, in succession, management, and as I think about that for Deloitte.
And I think about you. Know moving this from novelty, to norm it's, a really, important, lesson I mean I recently. Had, an opening, on my executive, team nine. Men knocked on my door. Raised their hand and said I want, that job. Zero. Women. So. Again what do you do do you go knock on those doors and, get women to stand up and raise their hand they're not gonna do it on their own and. And, I think it's a good lesson from Justin Trudeau to say we need to think about that years, in advance in. Order to move, the, needle to have this to become a little more of the norm yeah, well that's a great point and actually it leads quite, nicely and to the next thing I wanted to discuss with you which is the. Degree to which women start to take themselves out, of the running so. Again, I'm in my world data is king so III deal, with data so this is a survey, of, women. And different, age groups women and men and the, degree to which they are aspiring. To, be in top leadership positions, in their organization. And so you can see for the 18 to 25 year olds it's the same number of men and women 26. To 30, when. We get to the 40's we see this drop-off, where, the women are not aspiring, to, the same degree as. The men. So. Now though if we hang on to them until, they're in their 50s it gets better but I have a, feeling the the the. Number, included. In that response, is probably a lot smaller, so. You know kind of getting back to the the, llenan thing you know there, are women who are selecting. Themselves, out and it gets tricky, too when we look at the specific environments. That, are conducive, to. Successful. Performance, for men versus women some. Of our own research again has looked at this again. In the context, of collective, intelligence in, this particular study, we. Enforced. A bit of competition, within the team where they were all competing, with each other to be the leader and. We're really quite, surprised, we. Looked at competitive. Behavior in the form of people interrupting. Each other, and. What we found was. That as, that happened, more and we, had more men, in the group the, group did better this. Was really motivating, this kind of competitive, we're, gonna you. Know try to see who's gonna be the best one as we, had more women the. Group did worse they, essentially started, to check out and. Found it really aversive, to be in that situation and, so, that's not inconsistent, with, studies. And organizational. Settings, that you know also reflect, the the aspiration. Graph I just showed you where, women just find it you know much less interesting. To, you, know get into the fight and mix it up in order to, perform. You, know in some of these very competitive. Environments. So. I put the question out to you what. Do we do about this so, one. Idea would be to change the environment but, as you can see a. Competitive. Environment is, actually, quite motivating, you know to some, men. Do. We change the people, somehow. And, how do we do that or, some combination of both or some other option, Kathy. What do you think about it this one's a little near and dear in my heart because I grew up one. Of eight children with. Five brothers. Competing. From the day I was born for cereal, and Pop Tarts and everything in between. Around. And, I also played, sports. In college and, was the captain of my lacrosse, and basketball team so I would say competitive.
Has Been part, of my DNA but I understand, it's, not part of everyone's and I agree, with that research because I see it in our young, men and women but certainly our women. That, may not thrive in a competitive. Environment but, I do think that I don't think it's either, of the above maybe, changing. The environment or, changing the people it is a cultural, thing and I think we have to recognize, that as we put in programs, across the lifecycle of our employees, to. Recognize. This recognize, the environment, and the culture in which you want to build at your company, so, I do think it's an important question for every company to say what's, our DNA, what's our culture, around this. Competitive. Environment versus. Not we happen to be in a big apprenticeship, model at Deloitte where the average age of our employees, 28, years old and and so. We do get a pretty good you know coming out of competitive, you know University so, we do get a pretty competitive, group, of people sometimes, we have to tame it down including, men and women by the way, but. You know just a story where I always, I always use this term especially with young college, students, particularly. Women you know first. Don't start everything with an apology, I was at one of the top MBA schools, speaking, to a women, in business event and the. First question a woman raised her hand and said I'm. Sorry, and then. Asked a question and. It was a fabulous question, but I could not get past the I'm sorry like. Why did she start that question, with I'm sorry and then she asked this fabulous, question and. So I think there are some things that we really need to think about it the environment, that we would like to change like stop apologizing. And. Other things where you know I get, put in and you know I get frustrated at this one because I get put in situations. With all men one you, know group, of CEOs, usually, I'm one of the few if only women got, put in a situation in DC recently, where there, was a, cocktail. Party before an event where, the. CEOs. Could bring their General. Counsel's, they could bring their, legislative. Policymakers, in Washington lobbyists. Which many are women but the CEOs were all men and me and then. The dinner after, the cocktail party was only for the CEOs, and, so. So. I start, walking with you know actually, the CEO of, two. Oil companies, and I'm walking in the room to the dinner and a woman. Up to me taps, me on the shoulder and says excuse, me man that's only for the CEOs. And. I was like okay. My competitive, juices are. Now. And I, said I can do one of three things I, could say I am a CEO I, could. Get mad and really like I can't believe you just said that or I could do what I did which was I smiled, at her I said thank you very much and I walked in the room and so, I'm sure she realized, after I did that that she made a mistake that there was one female CEO that night but that's why I always say we, I didn't, get bothered by it I tell that story because it is something we just have to be aware of and and. Really I don't think I'm ever gonna change that environment but, I think you know it was something that really struck me like really she doesn't think I'm the CEO, so. I was a little offended but you know my competitive, spirit kicked, in and. It. Sounds like you handled it better than I probably. But. I still remember it yeah, that's later, Korey, and anything, to add so, I've actually got it I've got a story, that shapes sort of my perspective, on on this question so you. Know in the roles that I've had over the last 10, years I've had a chance to work with many many clients around the world global, in nature and. I was at a client dinner with. A bunch of sea levels sea below sea level clients, and one, of my customers, there that was sitting next to you was a gentleman he was a CEO of a global, manufacturing, firm and there were several women cxos around the table as well so.
We're Having lovely dinner and he we, started talking about this women, in leadership and, women as contributors, versus men and that dynamic this is a multi industry conversation, and. He looks at me and this is a gentleman who was married who had daughters, and he, says and you know I have worked with some amazing, women in my career and I. Looked him and I said I'm. Protecting, his name to protect the innocence of the innocent that's, father Jack right you know you, know Jack what, do you mean by that you know and then he says well they're, amazing, and then they get married and then they have kids mmm. And, I, thought, to myself this is not I'm not talking 20 years ago I'm talking, within the last half decade and this. Is I would have considered him a very progressive leader, and I, was really struck by that it then ensued a very lively conversation. Is you would imagine around the dinner table right, around what was that made women. So much less amazing, when. They got married or when, they. Had the children right. Then. The men right and it was a really a fascinating discussion around the paradigm, around. What. Happens right in that traditional. Family dynamic, you, know and I was I was thinking about this. Morning with Doug Parker from America now I want it's right he said we're only limited by physics, right and in. My mind's in some ways here we're. Limited by physiology. Right generally, speaking the women, are having the babies okay. I do believe, that there is a to, use Kathy's word, you know there's a lifecycle right of an employee of, a person, of a person's life of, a family, you. Know again I'm making some generalizations, here that, contribute, to that drop-off, right, that contribute to that drop-off in terms of the, expectations. Of society, the expectations. Of companies you, know in speaking with this EXO Jack, you, know jack went, on to say well you, know when it wouldn't get married or when they have when they have kids they always have to leave early, the, men never leave early, right and I'm thinking to myself oh, the, men want to leave early right they're, just not getting up to leave early right they want to as well right and so it, really sort of reshaped, my frame of reference there, you know couple that with I'll, share with you guys one of the best pieces of advice that I got when I had my first trowel. You. Know an executive, came and said you know and you're gonna think as a you, know as a young mother that, your children, need you. When. They're tiny little babies if, you actually in actuality they. Really don't need you they, need security. You. Know they need the basics, which can come from any number of places and people right when, they need you is when. They're teenagers and in their tween years when you're kind, of starting to launch them into young adulthood and that's, when they need you as a parent, and I don't think my own personal opinion is that the, reason why we see such a drop-off, at those ages is when, you have the inflection, point of many of these societal, expectations, within organizations, as well as the family, expectations and quite, frankly mom, expectations. Of the. Role perhaps, in a family unit and so one. Of the questions that I often get is you know and can you you know is it possible to. Have it all right, and here's, here's my answer because I truly believe it. Whether. It relates to your career, any other aspect of your eyes you're. Never gonna have it all at. The same time but. It is in fact possible to have it all you just have to prioritize right. Whether it's against that life cycle of your career whether, it's the dynamic of your family whether it's your contribution.
To Your community right. It, is possible to have it all but, perhaps not just all at the same time and I think that if we were being more. Transparent. With. Our you know with our leaders especially you, know younger leaders up-and-coming, men, or women about, this dynamic, and creating the environment what's actually safe to, talk about this and help prioritize well, hey yeah maybe you've got to leave at five o'clock to go pick up your kids here but how about just hop back on later because we've got this really critical project, going on if. We could create that kind of environment where, there, was a little bit more flexibility. Not. In the absolute, you know, hours. But in terms of the you know the way that people can contribute I think we would be so much better off no this kind of tends to be my frame of reference around, this question. Anything. Yeah. Just in terms of what we can do in the workplace, I. Think it's really important, to create an environment where. Women feel, like that. They are not going to be penalized. For. Having to make these trade-offs or these decisions, that you all talked about so, that's very important, for us to say look we have to create an environment where they feel, confident. And comfortable that, they can make those choices if that means leaving early, to take whatever it is and they won't be penalized for and then. You have to have examples, they have to see it, right. And so I can talk about it and can talk about it leaders can talk about it until we're blue in the face and I'm, black so that's hard to do. But. Unless. They can see, real-life, examples. Of it people like an ant child people like that then, they won't buy into it and that's very very, important, because I think once they see that, then, they. Feel a lot more confident, to, be able to make those choices and as soon as the message very clearly to those, folks in the organization whether, it be men or women look, this is also we embrace, that as well, all right because we're just looking for performance, and results and so how you get that maybe a little differently than the next person but that's fine as long as you get it, great. Point. All. Right so just, one final. Question just to get down to brass tacks because. We. Could certainly talk about programs, we could talk about role models. The. People here in the audience are all you know in their own role at their own stage of their career, and so, I'm curious what you think what. A leader or a manager could, do right now starting. Today starting tomorrow, to. Start to move the dial on this you, know what specifically, could they step. Out there and do to try to help change. Some, beliefs some feelings. Some. Aspirations. Cory, what do you think about that, yes, a few things so number one the. Business has. To stop being all businesses. Stop. Being so risk-averse. Right. You have to stop being so risk-averse, and this is one of the things that we fight often, is there as an opportunity, somewhere in an organization, and, then we identify, these skill, sets experience.
Sets That are necessary, to be competitive for, that position and, I, say there's a list of ten of those and. Then we get candidates, in and there is you know a fantastic, woman, that's a part of that group, and. She. Can check nine and a half of those ten and. Then you know they, have we have the tendency to go back I mean because it's conference, what we know what we see and says well no I want to put Cory in that role because you. Know I can check all ten I never, mind that the the woman may have way, more potential. Right. There's just this half of a box that she can't fully check right now but, we all acknowledge that you know she's more innovative, she's more creative, she, delivers, better but it's just as half a box that. We can't check and so. I'm challenging the business to say no unless you can evidence, that. That is absolutely, mission-critical, that half a box for. The person being that role didn't, know she's in this conversation in this competition for this role as well so be, willing to take a little more risk and then, to you have to be very very intentional, about, developing, a pipeline I think Kathy was getting too early an example, of the Canadian President you. Have to develop the pipeline you have to be very intentional about that too you can't just let that happen, you. Know by chance or circumstance, you you, have to challenge every person in the organization. To, you know be able to come and present and talk to and talk. About in. Detail. The. Leaders that they have identified, and. Make sure that that pipeline is diverse, and it's very inclusive as well if you don't do that then you and I'll be having this conversation five. Years from now ten years from now and, these organizations, will look very similarly, to what they look like today. Anything. Dad I guess. I'd say three things, one. Some of the best advice I've gotten since I became CEO was, from Condoleezza, Rice who said Kathy. You're. Not going to be the leader forever and your. Number, one job should be to bring, up the next generation behind, you and so, I've made succession. Especially. Around women's leadership and, diversity inclusion, more broadly a big. Part of what, I do every, day so so, as a leader that's one of the number one things we can be thinking about is you're, not going to be the leader forever and what your responsibility. Is around to bring in the next leader to, is share your story. Especially. The women leaders out there I, learned, the hard way I, had, a situation where, I was, a young partner in our firm a young. Person, who had only been with us three years left the firm and when they did her exit interview I didn't even know her when. They did her exit interview she said I'm leaving cuz I don't want to be like Kathy Engelbert, and. I was like wow what a slap in the face and, they, said why why what about Kathy and they said oh I I, see. Her online and in the morning, and the afternoon and, late at night and. I. Guess our I am system, showed when I was online I didn't, even know that back then and this, is about 10 years ago and she said and. I know she has a young daughter and. At. The time I hadn't had my son yet and what, happened, though was I, was actually coaching. My daughter's basketball team, and I, was leaving work to go coach at 5 or 6 o'clock but. I wasn't telling people I wasn't sharing my story and. Just saw me boot back up at ten o'clock at night and then I was working till midnight and they said she just works all the time and she has a child and I don't want to be like that so. By the way I started sharing my story about coaching, my daughter's basketball team and you. Know what happened, the. Men, hailed. Me sharing their story because they said I want, to go to my son's Little League gamer, I want to go to my daughter's dance recital I didn't think I could do it but now that you're saying you can do it we know we can do it too so share, you share your stories an important, part, of it and the last is knock on doors it's. Back to what you know the prime minister said it's back to what Corey just said we, I do believe, we must knock on doors and get women to have, the confidence to step up and ask for different development. Raise your hand, develop your capabilities. Because, had I not done that in my career I wouldn't be a female, leader of the sort and I probably would have dropped out of the workforce for some time I believe and I actually resigned, once when I was pregnant with my daughter from the firm and now 31 years later I'm glad I stayed, but. I think it's really important and knock on doors.
My. Last comments on this would be very similar in the pay it forward but I'll get this is the engineering me I'll get a little bit tactical for all of you guys here so, in, the whole spirit of paying it forward and I completely resonate, with what Corey and Kathy have said I would, ask each of you to choose, three, women to push and choose. Three more men to pull here's what I mean by that. Think. About your sphere of women. In your in your life okay that, already there maybe they work in your organization maybe, they're on your team maybe they're on a corresponding. Team push. Them encourage. Them to see the, potential in themselves, and make, that your mission, just three okay just three that are already in your sphere and in your network then. In terms of the poll this gets to the door knocking which I'm a little Wester I'm gonna adopt that one um, go. Find three, that, are outside, of your network this gets to being. Uncomfortable right, you, know the people that already in your sphere those are the people that you're most comfortable with, find three women however. You want to find them right maybe you've admired their contribution, from afar, maybe you create, and start a mentoring circle, maybe it's someone in your community it doesn't have to be work-related. And go. Right, and pull, pull, them up all. Right so that's what I would ask you to do is three, push three, pull and it starts one, person. At a time one person, at a time one relationship, at a time can. Create. Immense change, right we've heard that throughout this conference is that the speed of change is so, rapid right, and really one person can make a difference and you can absolutely make the difference in. Anything and everything that you do. Fantastic. Well thank you for for, all of those comments I guess I want to open it up if the audience, has any. Questions. This is a great opportunity to to. Tap into the collective knowledge here, of these folks that have been living, this in. Their own trailers and in their organizations. Good, afternoon, first off thanks for your time especially on such a critical topic I've. Had the opportunity to, mentor, women. Of Business Circle, and. One of the topics we recently covered was the inequality. Of pay with women I know we didn't touch it on this subject in this session but one, of the biggest surprises to, me at least was the pay inequality of, minority, women and just want to get your perspective on, what we need to do to really change that trajectory I. Didn't. I'm sorry I didn't hear it pay inequality for minority, women not, just women minorities, women, or anyone okay, so, I mean I can answer you, know I do believe that we have you, know everybody talks about data and analytics. And I think, you, know as the leading companies, that we see are the ones out there that are using, data and analytics and, being, able to what I call ferret out the. Anomalies, in that data to determine, what, actions need to be taken to make sure whether it's been already women and already men women. You. Know people, of, you. Know a certain heritage. That, there's not a bias in the system so I think it's really for. Us the solution, we see is using, your data and analytics, to drive now, one thing that's hard to do with analytics is, because. There sometimes is a capability, difference, because, the men have been more aggressive and competitive around, raising their hand to take, on roles that put them they might you might have two people who are called senior managers, who have very different backgrounds. And capabilities. Because of the way they've promoted themselves or self promoted or the way others have promoted them because they look like the leaders so you have to be very careful, as you look at those analysis, to make sure again that you're driving a culture such, that you know you can have parity, and that can drive you know pay equity. You. Know we have a very. Similar challenge, right and we go through a similar review so, we do, a lot of analytics, on pay across, the business and Cathy. You nailed it that challenge. Is identifying, you. Can't go by just the title you. Clearly cannot do that you have to look at the scale and scope of the responsibility, you. Look at tenure and experience, you look at performance. You, look at leadership capabilities, you look at potential, and a number of these things aren't readily identifiable. Right if I look at you and you're in that role I don't necessarily know, how the business views, your, potential. Okay. And and what your leadership capabilities. Are so, what we do is and it is a lot of work where you really, have to dive deep once, you get the first view in analytics, and then you combine that with all of the data you have around performance, and performance reviews and high potential, list and all of that to, ensure that you don't have.
Inequality. That's based on some bias or. Some other reason that is not related, to the performance of the individual, and the potential, of the individual. One. Thing I might add actually, is, we. We do some other research at Carnegie Mellon on negotiation. And women some, of my colleagues Linda, Babcock and Laurie weingartz in particular have documented, how women are just much less likely to negotiate, they're much less likely to ask and so, on a personal level if I work, with females. And leadership positions we, now have programs specifically, geared to, help them learn how to negotiate so they need to go out and get the information and, advocate. For themselves which a lot of them need to learn the skills for doing. Hi. I'm Christine, Grable, AT&T, I really, appreciate. Your candor. On the panel I think what. You've talked about around work-life, balance and. Community. Commitments, as much as family, commitments, is really really important, and to. Your story, not. Four, years ago. I, had spoken to an executive and, about. A position and the feedback that I heard was um oh you know she was she was really good but you know she's a working, mother and. It was like Oh of. All things and I had always been raised with the idea that if you want something done you ask someone who's really busy, because. They'll actually get it done so. The, thing that concerns, me and I would love just your maybe Cory your feedback, on, what. Seems to be in the industry kind of a slipping, backwards, a little bit on on. Remote. Work versus. Office. Work and kind of people coming in versus. Owning. Their own schedules, what is your perspective on that because I know it's a fine balance but, I feel, like we were making, progress towards, more flexible, schedules. And now there's kind of this retrenching. It seems like what's your thought on that yeah. So, it's, been a it's, been an interesting problem, or challenge I should say to, try and tackle I would describe it I think we probably swung. Too, far in. Terms you know we had this movement, where okay everything, was going to be flex working we wanted folks to telecommute, and, so we were you know especially inside of our business we were pushing, really really hard Lee to, do that we, did that and then we stepped back and realize oK we've created another sort of unintended, consequence, here and that, the business has changed and the business has changed rapidly and. Now it requires a, lot, of innovation. A lot more collaboration. And innovation than, it ever has and the, collaboration. Became a challenge, when, we had so many folks that were physically, separated, although, we have the tools, you.
Know To work virtually we. Just found it look there is you know in certain environments certain parts of the organization, for sure we need folks to be able to collaborate better, and more easily, and. In a lot of instances that's facilitated, by. Proximity and so what, we've said is look, it's not a one, fits all, right. Each leader has a responsibility, within. Their organization. To say okay what makes the most sense for this organization so you have seen and it's not just 80 we've, seen that a number of companies who. Have said okay maybe we swung the pendulum a little too far and so, in these organizations, where that collaboration, is such a premium. Yeah. We've said you know in some cases hey, we'd, like for you to be you, know in proximity, of each other, recognizing. That that has presented some challenges no, doubt in, terms of I hate using the term work-life, balance but, how do we manage, these priorities, that we have in our life. It has presented some challenges here so. We've tried to be as sensitive as possible, as we sort of pull, back you, know the reins on some some. Of that but. It would be a challenge going forward what we've said those look as a leader we don't want to we, don't want to try to create a mandate. If you will from, a corporate perspective each. Leader has a responsibility, to. Go and create whatever work environment, works best for that organization. The. Question. It'll, be our last question we've, got one time. From just one more. Hi. I'm, Kimberly Rose and, I, have a tough question here, because something that I've always wanted to know. Is. This is for Deloitte. And and. Two, women that I truly, admire being, at the level. That you are at and how you achieved that so. I've. Kind. Of had the same experience, as you being, a female. Technologist. And. So but, I do. Want to be you know like you and, I would want to raise my hand to say that now but. How what is two, things that you can think of that. Got you to overcome. All that. Diversity. And, all the challenges that you face as a woman what. Are two things you could give me as an advice to, achieve what you've achieved. Yeah. I'll start one thing is definitely, sponsorship. So I had a sponsor, behind the scenes that. I had worked with probably, for one week and for. Some reason, he kind of took me under his wing he was a senior, leader and then. Asked me a couple years after I had worked with them for that one week, asked, me to work on a project with him and then literally took me under his wing and actually. Had a dashboard, on me that I didn't even know which. By the way was yellow and red you know she has to do this and this and this I didn't even know but he was quietly behind the scenes pounding, the table and saying Kathy needs to do this so she has this capability she. Checks that box he didn't tell me he had this dashboard when I saw it afterwards, I go I wasn't, yellow and red on those things and no I was, so.
That My best advice is, you, know it's, hard to seek out sponsors, but you know find people, who you know are influential. In. When, decisions are being made to, give assignments, to people because for me that is why I'm sitting here today because, I was actually kind of even though I was competitive I was shy I was not one to raise my hand but I was always really curious, about what, was going on more broadly in our business so I did kind of be very curious, and ask for certain things but. It ultimately came down to when you got to the Morsi your ranks a great, sponsor behind the scenes that I didn't even know was doing it. But. What I would say is it's, actually, very complimentary, to your comments Kathy as well as first of all I would say you've. Got to have the performance, you have to have the competence, right and then this is not, as you define, it but, as those who are measuring, you define it right how many times perhaps have you had a. Year where you thought you had a great year but maybe you had a performance review that was not what you thought you earned so, it's soap and I made this mistake very early on my career a couple of times when, I'm then I realized, that it, wasn't important, necessarily as important, to think, that I was doing a great job if, others, around me didn't think I was doing a great job right so performance. In the eyes of those who are measuring, is critical, and the most important person than that besides, yourself is your boss right so very much important to be on the same page because that, is how you actually will develop. Sponsors, over time right is that you have to have that performance, by confidence the. Other aspect of it is very much to do with with people as well which is you've, got to have a good consciousness, and develop a consciousness, around how, you're positioned and how you're perceived, right this gets to your network right if you think you're a fantastic team, player but that's not your reputation, then. It doesn't really matter again what you think right it's kind. Of the same thing the customer's always right right perception is reality, and, then just to, the point of positioning. This. Is all about you know business, works on relationships, business works on people no matter what business what organization, profit. You know nonprofit. It's. All about people and so, what to me has been most important, it's really being, very conscious about building, very, meaningful, relationships, where I can trying, to stay away from the toxic ones because you will encounter those right, and to really surround, yourself with people who are smarter than you who are better than you who help challenge you and lift you up it. Gets to my, ask of you guys earlier which was I'm asking, neutropenia push.
Three Women and pull three women right and if we all do that we'll. Make this you know this world is this you know this country a better, a better place so so I say it's really it really gets the same dimensions. There but you got to perform you got to have that competence, right so, well thank you so much and I'm that helpful note I guess we're gonna wrap up I want to thank our panelists. For for, sharing, all of the, this wisdom today and also please. Do, provide. Your feedback on this session on the app when. You get a chance so thank you very much.