UPSAHL on Pop Songwriting Sessions and the Economics of Touring

genuinely it funds the tour which is amazing it just creates a really fun the way we run like my VIP or meet and greet or whatever you want to call it is like very small like Max 50 people and um they're just like hanging out for an hour and like get to like actually spend time like it's not like a like the reason we cap it is so that I can actually talk and like hang out with people for me at least I feel like the people who come to the the meet and greet at the beginning like they're there early we're hanging out I do a little like acoustic set we'll sing together sometimes ask questions get pictures do the thing and then it's like then at the show that's normally like the front couple rows or like those people who I already have been hanging out with for the past like hour or whatever and there's always like a ridiculously cheesy speech I give of like you guys are here you set the Vibes for everyone else coming like make sure everyone is making friends or taking care of each other and so it's just this like cute core group of people that set the Vibes for the night and like yeah it's really really it's really fun I I think that's like one of my favorite parts of the tour because you know when I'm like opening I go and hang out at merge after my set and like meet people and that's always so chaotic and you're like screaming talking over the noise and like the VIP thing is just so intimate and just chill which is really really cool [Music] what's going on welcome to the new music business I'm your host Ari herstand author of how to make it in the new music business the book The audiobook has actually just been released for the Third Edition so if you've been patiently waiting for the audiobook for the Third Edition it just was released go grab the audiobook if you like listening to my voice you can listen to it for the next 17 hours or however long that thing is anyway my guest today is the artist up saw upsol is now based in La originally from Phoenix um she is a pop artist and she is also a pop songwriter she's written for artists like Dua Lipa Mike Shinoda and Marie Little Mix Madison Beer Gail so she is kind of equal parts session songwriter and touring artist during this conversation we talk about the process of doing these pop sessions with various people in the room sometimes artists sometimes producers sometimes other writers we talk about what it's like to be signed to a major label she's signed to a major when she was only 19 actually kind of pre-tick talk and uh after that she actually did have a song go crazy viral on Tick Tock uh if you were on Tick Tock kind of towards the end of 2020 you might remember the song drugs I just came here for the drugs that's her song and it had millions of people making videos of that song on Tick Tock it went nuts and now has over 120 million streams just on Spotify I really appreciate the conversation today and upsells Candor and transparency uh she didn't shy away from any of the questions that I threw her way especially later on when we got into how uh her major label deal came to be and was structured also what it's like to be in the room and the economics of touring we actually spent quite a bit of time talking about the economics of being a touring artist playing small clubs because that's what she does she also has a VIP meet and greet program we talk about the economics around that and the philosophy around that and how she structures them feels good about it if you read my recent piece for variety kind of calling out Maddie Healy for chastising artists about running meet and greet VIP uh programs on tour definitely want to listen to the bit that we discuss about VIP programs you should definitely check out upsell's new EP Sagittarius see her on tour you can find her on all the socials of course and find all of us that make the show happen at Ari's take you can find me at Ari herstand on all the socials all of that stuff visit aristake.com get on the email list that's we're going to get the most up-to-date information about the new music business and you'll be notified when new shows new episodes come out but right now if you could just pause this and leave us a five-star review however you listen to this on Spotify or apple podcasts uh or give us a hit that subscribe button on YouTube YouTube or Spotify or apple all that stuff you want us to keep showing up in your feed subscribe to us leave that review that really helps all right let's kick into the show welcome to the show hello thanks so much for having me hello hello where are you based where are you coming to me from I'm in LA right now over on the east side where are you uh I'm I'm in Los Feliz so we're probably neighbors probably could have done this at uh at intelligence here or something but either way um so um yeah staying dry staying safe uh it's it's absolutely Bonkers here in La I don't know uh we have this the the river that flows down the uh Hillhurst which is just like constant stream these days it's pretty nuts it's so crazy I like love the rain and so living in L.A we like never get rain so right now all the rain we're getting I'm living for it but I'm starting to kind of get sick of it I'm ready to like go to the beach and yeah yeah you didn't grow you grew up in Phoenix right yeah I grew up in Phoenix Arizona where it's like desert yeah right there yeah very different yeah um right on and so um you have this new EP Sagittarius out um it's great I've been I've been playing I've been spinning it's awesome um I want to hear about the process um you know I'm I'm looking through the credits uh I lost track of how many people uh it took to put something together like this and I know in the pop world and you as a songwriter who have cuts on so many other people I think spot I was looking at like your your Spotify for artist songwriter profile and I think it said you have over 50 Cuts with other artists and and um yeah so I'm curious about the process of putting this EP together um you know and then maybe contrast that a little bit to what was like kind of being in sessions for yourself putting uh you know writing and producing songs that you knew were going to be on Yori P versus popping into other people's sessions or just showing up to a blind session um and uh and not really um knowing you know maybe it's for you for someone else or knowing that is going to be for someone else just kind of help educate me on this yeah I mean it's it's funny because when I got into songwriting it was always just like oh I'm writing for myself I'm gonna put these songs out and then I kind of got into writing for other people by accident when I wrote this song called good in bed for myself and like it just kind of sat in like a Dropbox folder forever probably over like a year I think and then like do a lipa's team and hurt it and they were like we're gonna put this on the future Nostalgia album and I was like I'll believe it when I see it I can't get my hopes up about this but then when it happened that sort of opened the door for me to like write for the artist I was like oh I can kind of do this that was your first cut yeah that was like my first ever cut for someone else your first cut was for Dua Lipa cool on uh that's a massive record yeah it totally happened you know like by accident like the producer Lynn Grant who produced in co-wright it with us send it to his publisher and that it all just sort of got you know in the mix of songs for that album and because of that I was like okay maybe it's not as intimidating as I thought like if I can write for myself I can write for other people and how did you feel about sorry to interject um how did you feel about giving that song away even though you were planning writing that for yourself and and being you know an artist at that point um you'd written tons of songs for yourself I mean I I know they're not on Spotify anymore and they're not really public but I know you'd release a few albums under your own name and just kind of like prior to everything else how is that how did that feel that first time of like oh wait a minute I wrote this for me I thought I was gonna be my song and then kind of giving it away essentially to someone else it was a trip at first I was like wait do it actually put this song out now like maybe it is for me but then yeah once Dua hopped on it did her thing to it made it her own I was like oh that's how the song was supposed to be cool and so now it's like this whole new kind of like it's a completely different part of my brain and part of my like self that gets fulfilled having other artists cut songs of mine or like having other artists put out songs that we wrote together like it's so fulfilling and such a different way to watch like to know that like as a writer we've helped to get somebody else's message across it's like it's really really fun yeah well let's talk about that a little bit because um when you're in a session let's say with another artist and you're saying you know like help getting their message across um do you approach the session differently than if you're in there as essentially the artist or a writing for um you know you're actually anticipating this is going to be on your record definitely yeah it's I feel like it's two completely that's why I feel so lucky that I get to do both because whenever I get burnt out writing for myself and I'm like I don't want to talk about me anymore I get to go talk about other people with them so it's like when I go in as an artist it's very much from like personal experience so I'm like okay what's going on in my life like let me just like pour my heart out to these people really quick and then when it's me being a writer for another artist they're the ones that are like this is what I'm going through like they're like reading through their journals and like telling me or whoever else is in the room like about the Saga that is their life at the time and we kind of write from that experience and so it's very different and it's honestly so nice to have the the mixture of the two because writing about yourself all the time gets so emotionally exhausting so it's nice to pull from other people's lives you know do you always have an artist either in the room that you're co-writing with or who you're expecting um or or I guess you're you're anticipating will cut the song or is there a process where you just decide to write a song with somebody and then you hand it off to your publisher and they just kind of shop it around hoping to get it cut and then it just ends up on a do a Libra record or whatever I mean I think now we're like in most of my sessions if it is for another artist there in the room because I get to work with artists who are like incredible writers so like they want to be there and like they want to be writing they want to be you know a part of the process from start to finish which is really fun but then there is that whole world of like a lot of songs that I write maybe for myself kind of like what happened with good in bed like oh if I'm not planning on putting them out or it just doesn't really fit for me at the time I'll send them to my publisher and be like yo like who do we think for this and then start pitching it around but I think we're in a really cool time right now where like most artists want to be in the room for the whole process which is really fun as a writer and for me as an artist to get to just hang with other artists and like you know we relate on such a different level which is really cool so yeah it's been really fun how is the process of um when you're actually in the room in the session uh kind of knowing your place I guess I mean you know some of these songs on your EP for instance I mean like uh let's see into my body has four writers credited on there two producers um skin crawl has two three four five six writers two producers I mean we're all six of the people actually in the room for skin crawler like how does this work yeah I mean no to answer okay yeah I mean for this project specifically like my album before this I kind of locked in with like a very tight-knit like close crew and they worked on the whole album yeah but with skin or with um Sagittarius yeah I was writing all these songs like in between tours so I would only be in La for like a couple weeks at a time and I would be like give me as many sessions as I can like I just want to get as many songs as possible and then was on the road reworking the songs rewriting them figuring out like what producer friends of mine would work for which songs and so that's why there's like multiple producers on songs like I would have Pete nappy my friend hop on a lot of them um and he was on your last album too yeah so a bunch yeah there he's been great he's been um we worked on a lot of stuff together and a lot of stuff for other artists together which is cool he's so talented so whenever I'm like struggling with the song I'm like something about it like isn't clicking yet it goes to him and he will like help figure it out cool um so yeah it was very much a really cool collaborative kind of chaotic process of like oh we need a bridge who are we going to pull in to help write this or like oh we need extra production let's pull this person in so it's very like it was cool because I get to work with so many amazingly talented people so it was cool kind of playing off of everyone's strengths to make the songs the best they could be yeah how do you approach that um in terms of like okay we need a bridge you know when I've been in little sessions with one or two other people or something like that we'll just I you know and we're not writing pop necessarily but it's like oh we'll just finish the song we'll get a bridge or like oh we can't come up with it today let's come back next week fresh years let's figure this out you know but it's kind of like this challenge that we're like oh George is going to do it um like there's nobody else that's just where but it's an interesting uh process where you're just like oh we don't have a bridge let's just call up Johnny and like he's gonna do the bridge for like it's just a different head to it like I've never really approached songwriting that way and I've never really I'm just yet curious now how you approached that where it's just like oh you know what I'm not gonna write the bridge I've tried but Matt yeah let's down the assembly line like what do you like what is this I think it's like a mixture of sometimes just by chance like the way the bridge of skin crawl happen which is why there are six writers on it was because I was working on the production with Captain Cuts who did like additional production on it and I was like in that session just thinking we were going to work on production and I was like we kind of need a bridge should we write one really quick and so that's how they they were like okay word like yeah let's write it in like 20 minutes and then we got a bridge that's where the writers on the song um but I think what's really interesting that I've learned to because I've always kind of been the same way where I'm like this is my crew we made the song This is Our Song we everyone else um but it's been really interesting to lean on like having so many people that I trust creatively and like having a fresh set of ears on something is like everything and like for me once I'm like in the room when the idea begins it's so hard for me to like zoom out and like look at the song from like a fan perspective I guess or like just a listener perspective so whenever we do get stuck it's always like let's call up my friend Johnny Shore let's call it or you know it's just like calling up people to see like what their take on it is and sometimes they'll be like yeah I have I have nothing or they'll have an amazing idea that changes the song completely so it's definitely cool to like I feel like I put so many hours in so many sessions when I first moved to LA to just like meet people and that was so exhausting socially but now it's great because I have this network of like people and you're like so and so is good at this like let's call them like it's it's really cool yeah um well let's talk about that when you moved to LA uh when was that and how old I was 19 and it wasn't 2018. yeah at the beginning of 2018. and

it was this pre or post drugs has was drugs already out drugs was not I hadn't even I'd never been in the session in my life until I moved to LA and I didn't even know that was like a world that where people just were in sessions all day every day yeah so I just kind of got into that um whatever machine of just doing a bunch of sessions and wrote drugs in one of those sessions yeah how do you how do you move from Phoenix to LA and just get into a bunch of sessions how does that happen how does that work I had my management team in um when I was still like in high school I had met my managers um Joe and Ron and in Phoenix when I I they are based out of New York they found me from like YouTube basically which is so funny that was like um yeah and met them and I was like yo when are you guys gonna manage me they were like we're basically are but like before we like officially manage you like figure out what your Vibe is like start like trying some new writing like different ways of writing whatever and um so they've been with me since I was 17 basically and then when I was like all right cool I went to like a performing arts school so I like knew I wanted to go into music and so once I decided like I'm not going to college I'm just gonna I want to move to LA my managers helped me get meetings with Publishers basically and just kind of met shopped around but all I really had was like my catalog from high school which like wasn't that great obviously it was like I was making as a kid and then I signed with you and PG and with David Gray yeah yeah and he started booking me in sessions probably had to beg everyone to work with me because I like had nothing out was just like so so new like the newest possible artist and yeah yeah I think just like begged people to work with me and people who were down dead and I just like kept learning from that yeah and in one of those sessions is when you wrote drugs yeah I've been working with this producer kilogram for a second that was set up through my publisher and he was like yo my friend Sean Kennedy is a really good writer like to care if he joins our next session and I was like yeah of course like let's go and Sean came in with the idea I just came her to the party for the drugs and since then he's like my favorite writer we make a bunch of together but yeah we wrote that song and it didn't do anything for like two years and then Tick Tock happened and made it have another life which was great right which we're seeing so frequently these days um you know I've had a few people on the show um where that's been the trajectory um you know I mean we had Ricky Montgomery on here who he released an album completely independently in 2016 and then in 2020 or 2021 one of it it just took two songs completely took off and then you know he had 20 major label deals on the table that he could decide between and it was like this was a record that came out five six years prior and so we're seeing that happen um did you did it just happen randomly did you kind of help that along like tell me tell me the the the story of how drugs kind of took off on Tick Tock yeah I wish I could say I had a part in it because if I did then I would know like how to make my new music go viral but um no it was just this like girl from like who had an account with like not that many she was just making tick tocks for fun and posted this like thing with this like effect and this like layered kind of dance trendy thing to my song and that video went viral and literally it was it was cool too because it was on my birthday like of 2020. it's like within 24 hours just like went and it was the craziest thing because I didn't even notice because I really did have no part in it it was just this girl that made it happen and I we didn't ask her like I don't know how it happened at all so it was like so insane to watch it all just like continue to build and then be like okay what do I do now like how do I play a role in this this is my song and like trying to figure out how to how to get involved and like it was cool too because that was during a time where Tick Tock was so new it was during covid so like the the tick tock whatever virality also helped translate to streams and like people listening to my other music which I feel really lucky for but yeah it was a trip it's it's crazy I feel like that's you kind of have no control some of the times you know yeah no but you did a great job I mean of I saw the video that you did of that using that filter which was essentially kind of like a visual Echo visual delay effect um and it seems like most like it was almost on the beat like that effect happens uh as to like the beat of the song and it's just like that filter became kind of the official filter of the song or I should say the song became the official song of that filter uh and so all of these you know hundreds of millions at this point I think of of uh videos that were created by people with your song uh were using that filter and so I saw like you know you did the same and and you kind of created you know the song to that filter but I guess that's an interesting challenge because you know we're in this era there's always been one hit wonders throughout the history of the music industry um the difference now is just like we're like in The Tick Tock one hit wonder era uh which we don't we haven't figured out who's the the one hit wonder and yet you know we'll figure that out in 10 years when we look back but it's like I'm curious you know the because there are some artists that don't know how to capitalize on that and and take a viral song and say no no this is us like we're actually a real artist and then a lot of fans just like Oh I like that one song I heard on Tick Tock or whatever and they don't actually know there's a real artist behind her who the artist is um you know I just had uh the rare occasions on and their song notion went crazy viral last year um you know and similarly like got millions and millions of people creating videos around the song they jumped on that and like said we're the guys behind notion and then made a bunch of videos around that built up this audience now they're touring you know they signed to Elektra got dropped by Elektra like a year later like this is this crazy you know chaotic era that we're in right now where the labels are just like you you you you nope drop drop drop you know and so like I'm curious the process of just like when you see something going you're like wait a minute I don't want me as the artist to get lost in this moment like I want people to know no I'm the artist behind this song like what is your approach with that it's definitely like honestly terrifying I feel like artists feel that right now it's like okay you have the viral moment and of course that's like the literal dream right now but then that comes with its own set of challenges of like the song you don't want the song to be like bigger than you you know what I mean because then it's like how do you continue to release music after that um I think like for me I had done some like touring which was cool so I had like a tiny teeny little fan base like before that which was cool and I think they helped to push drugs along and be like oh like this is up Saul who is behind that song because I have them already which I'm very grateful for and I think yeah like even like still years later I get comments and they're like you're like milking this song for all it's worth and I'm like yeah like that's I have to I feel like I'm still making videos of like yeah you might know me from the song drops here's my new song it's like yeah that's kind of how people's brains work now and I think even as a fan and you might feel the same way too like I love albums and I still listen to albums and I have artists who I love but like there are so many songs that I love and half the time I'm like wait I just know that from Tick Tock like Who's the artist I don't even know what the verse sounds like like I only know and so yeah if we're who are like we're like music lovers are also consuming music that way it's like trying to figure out from the other side now being the artist like how do we like connect the dots and make it as easy for people as possible to like connect you to your music you know I mean yeah that is the million dollar question I think everyone's trying to figure out no one has has necessarily cracked that um but you know it's we've seen this throughout history I mean it was kind of like it's like oh I know that one song from the radio that I listen to or whatever he's like oh yeah I know you know that one video from MTV and you just kind of keep going or I know that one song from that playlist that like five years ago of like like you know that I listen to and it's always kind of been there and now it's just oh I know that one song from Tick Tock and so but I think it's the artists that you know work to kind of build that Foundation are the ones that last and the fact that you even had a little fan base at the time that helped Propel it I mean that's so huge and it's just like I think the artists that get lost in this and don't know how to grab onto a viral moment um are the ones that haven't laid the foundation necessarily and so like you've done all this work behind the scenes fan building I mean playing probably what hundreds of shows before you kind of even like had quote unquote like a name even like the upsell name and released a bunch of records and so you kind of had that Foundation laid and so then when things start to catch here or there your fans can kind of jump on it and be like oh no no they they do the work for you like this is upsell she's dope I saw her you know et cetera et cetera um so let's talk touring a little bit because I mean you've played a ton of shows um I saw you know you've released a live album um you have footage like great footage from the Roxy that I was watching one of those uh performances which is so cool um I guess in this whole process like how do you approach touring as upsol and and Performing as upsol versus kind of as the songwriter artist in the studio they gotta be I mean it's it's Gotta Be You know it's two ends of the the Spectrum for you of just like being you know in a room with a couple other people and working out these songs and then working on this for a while and then just being on massive tours that take forever that like you know we're on tour I guess you said for like six months at one point I mean like how how do you approach touring these days I think it's like two it's so nice because it's similarly to just like writing for myself and other artist whenever I get burned out doing writing I get to go on tour and vice versa which is amazing but I think like the writing process is obviously like so like vulnerable and I'm like okay what do I want to say like how do I get my message across being as personal as possible and like working through that process um and then the second the songs come out it sort of feels like you're like letting go of that now it's like the song is kind of no longer yours it's like the fans song like they get to make it whatever they want so then it makes the touring so fun because the songs are there is at that point and like I'm just there to like rage and put on a good show and like cool have a good ass time so like yeah the touring for me has always been amazing but it wasn't really until like the end of last year I did my first headlining tour and a bunch of little like shitty clubs and it was like the most like fun I've ever had in my life it was so fun I could like live out of a suitcase forever but um yeah it's it's really cool too especially when you're like making these songs with your friends and then your friends who you made the songs with or like at the show at the Roxy and everyone's like screaming the words it's like yeah so magical it's really really cool so let's talk um we are on the the new music business podcast emphasis on business so I um I want to dig into the business a little bit you're touring uh what you said as kind of shitty little clubs uh you know how do the economics work around that in terms of like you know what is your entourage what I should say what was your entourage for that tour um and like how do you make sure or can you even make sure that it is like a profitable tour at that level yeah I mean I've been opening for people for a while and that almost always is not profitable like I'm so glad if I break even um which is why being signed to a label is like I would not be able to to have done all of those opening tours without my baby tour support right like tour support is like everything um so I'm so grateful for that because I got to get so many like opening tours under my belt before I did my headlining run and like a lot of my fans who bought shows from my headlining tour found me because of opening for those other artists which was amazing um so getting to do that was amazing now getting to do like headlining rooms like you profit off of merch and like you're you're obviously getting paid more to play the show because you're headlining which is amazing um but I keep it like very low key we're we're in like a little Sprinter van and I bring my tour manager who also does front of house I bring um a lighting person um who sets up all the lights and runs them all himself just one person and then I have my drummer my guitar player I bring my little sister who sells merch and is my paid emotional support and then my photographer so there's like seven of us which is great um but yeah we're squeezing in a little van me my photographer and my sister share a bed every night like we're roughing it in our own like fun way um so yeah it's cool I mean I think yeah one day would be a dream to be like I'm gonna go on tour and sing boss hotels and be in the tour bus but right now I'm just like living fruits it's so much fun it's great no it's great and it and it's um I mean it points out I'm interested to hear how you decided on that Entourage like bringing an LD a lighting director a designer like that for many artists don't come until you're at maybe the theater level or something and if you're playing little clubs like you decided to bring that also a photographer I mean that seems almost like a luxury that that's their only job oftentimes you know the TM uh will double as that or the drummer will double it or or you know mo everyone's wearing multiple hats so um how did you decide you know who the people and what their roles are going to be to bring on the road I mean for a while I was just tour managing myself like my manager would Advance my shows and then I would kind of do the tour managing which was a nightmare because I'm not a very organized person um so that was just like not for me and so my front of house Jimmy like towards the end of like the last tour where I was tour managing was like Hey like I'm gonna help you out a bit so he kind of took on that role and he had never Tor managed before but just kind of being on our tour started to know what it took and um so then he does both which is nice so you can combine like two of those jobs into one person one body um I brought on Kyle my LD just for my headlining wrong because I wanted to make the show like as dope as possible even though it was like in smaller venues um and so he's amazing and is just like like hustle so hard and is able to somehow run this whole light show by himself my photographer Aubry has been with me for like a minute just shooting for like press and music videos whatever like everything um and so she has been so gracious just like helping me out with like rates and like not you know charging her normal rate for me like she's just been like such a dream bringing my sister's grapes we share a bed like it's just like little different ways where like we're all friends like in a team together like I'm so grateful to have people who like aren't like charging me a million dollars to come on tour with me you know it's like finding those people that are just like down for the ride that is everything yeah so this next tour that uh you have coming up in April and May um I see you're doing some dates uh kind of Midwest east coast and then you head over to Europe um what's the Entourage for that and what what kind of rooms are you playing for that um it's gonna be the same crew which is going to be really fun um and it's similar rooms we're basically hitting all the spots we didn't hit on my last headlining run which I'm really stoked for um so yeah it's gonna be fun some cities I've never played actually which is is going to be sick and then we had over to Europe for some festivals which is going to be chaotic and oh I'm sure but I'm very excited yeah nice nice um very cool so I want to um jump in a little bit to kind of as we're we're on this like business kick a little bit um so you've been with Arista now for what four or five years yeah four years yeah almost five yeah crazy which in this day and age uh uh I mean you're an elder then at that point I mean like like how many artists that we're seeing that have been signed in the last like four or five years have actually stayed with that label that long um you know I'm curious kind of um just the the relationship I I think did I read someone that you were the first artist signed to Arista when they really relaunched yeah yeah it was fun it was it was very like Written in the Stars type crazy thing where like the a r that I I was when I was signing publishing or taking publishing meetings or whatever I'd met with this guy Evan libshets and at Warner Chapel at the time I was like I really with this guy but I got in a raise I was fine but I got in a crazy car accident on my way to meet with him so I was like that's a sign like I'm gonna go with universal and then literally like a few months later David Massey who runs is the president of Arista was like Hey like I'd met him when he was at island but he was like Hey I'm relaunching Arista this guy named Evan's going to be doing a r I was like Evan lip shits like I loved him like and so then he was my a r and it just like all worked out so perfectly I got to be the first signing so it was a very unique experience at first because it felt like I was signed to like an indie label because even though it was a major um because they were just starting and we kind of got to like figure it out together which is really cool um yeah it's been it's been a journey I also just feel grateful because at the top like artists at that level aren't getting deals anymore like I was one of the last I feel like that was a the last sort of era of like proper artist development deals because this is pre uh drugs going viral on Tick Tock pretty like pretty much everything I had like three songs out yeah wow so like I'm so grateful that I signed when I did because it's been a proper and still like artist development like they're like in it with me um despite whatever's going on The Tick Tock marketing world like it's been it's felt very like we're a team like building this doing the Slow Burn like scoring as much as we can putting out the right songs doing great visuals like just like they're in it with me which is I feel like rare now if I were in that same place I was five years ago now I don't think I would have gotten that opportunity yeah I mean it is rare and I'm curious like you know I you're still in the deal so I I understand you know it's it's working in some capacity enough for for both of you to feel good about this um but like yeah you only had three songs that you didn't you weren't like necessarily proven I guess as an artist um it's surprising because we so rarely hear about labels especially Majors Taking Chances on unproven artists I mean granted uh you had some did you have that Dua Lipa cut no not yet nothing so like how does that happen because it's just we don't like I I I never hear about labels Taking Chances so what did it for them like why was this just like other than your natural charm and Brilliance of course I know of course I'm just kidding but I mean like you know it's just like from a business perspective that's just not done in this day and age like there is no virtually no artist development anymore it's kind of like they want to grab you when you're already have done it all yourself um and like so was it you know I I was it like uh a deal that you you know are you looking back like was it a 360 deal that you're like you know what maybe we're gonna try to renegotiate that in a little bit or was it something that was just like you know what I wanted to just take it because I figured uh this was the best thing I could do right now and you didn't have other offers on the table or like I'm curious the mindset that you're in at this point granted when you were 1920 you know and yeah didn't maybe didn't know as much and just in like you know hindsight tell me about that process and kind of what you think about it now I literally didn't know I had to have my lawyer like talk me through this whole deal and it's a proper like deal I would have like a bunch of options and it's the whole thing [Music] um and at the time I was like I literally don't give a like son I want to be like an artist I want to go on tour I want to put out songs like I wanna just whatever it takes like yeah full sand I'll deal with the repercussions later and luckily there haven't been any crazy like it's just been so nice and yeah still like I'm at a point where like sure like drugs had her moment I had some people I don't like have a little bit of a moment on Tick Tock but I'm still like building and learning and like yeah to have them in today's age still be down to do that with me is like such a dream and like I do not take it for granted I feel so lucky because like exactly like people are not getting artists development deals anymore like at all I came in like at the last second just like somehow got that well and I feel like you know it's you're lucky in the sense that you it worked out or it's working out I should say you know we see like you know Megan the stallion one could argue it worked out for her too but she's been an endless lawsuits against that early you know or her label and then you know the early production company and all like so I would imagine she'd probably would say the same thing I just signed I just wanted to be an artist I didn't know anything and then it came back around to bite her in the ass years later when she learned oh what did I sign holy this is really really bad for me you know so it's like a cautionary tale fortunately I mean that speaks you know a lot to uh David Massey and Arista and the team they're just like to not kind of take advantage uh of the artist and and like throw shitty deals at them and say I'm like wow they're not going to know any better they're going to sign and I'm Gonna Get You know like they use like that's been happening for decades in the industry you know and like fortunately um all the majors have you know just within the last few years um attempted to write their historical sins their historical wrongs by essentially wiping out all of the debt I don't know if you heard about this from all the artists that signed to their labels prior to the year 2000 because it's incredible I didn't know that yeah and so because because so few artists were recouping the costs you know just recouping period because of the major label accounting trickery which was essentially just theft um there was it was the books I mean if you ever see an audit or you know an audit of a major level back in the day I mean there was this like the CEO would take a private jet to go see their artists halfway around the world and that would get charged to the artist expense account oh yeah it's like of course they're not recouping you know so like that was kind of this old boys club that existed um you know for decades and like artists years later now is coming out or realized like man we got completely like we got taken advantage of and then now all the people at the majors like yeah sorry like that was really really bad and like you know there's all these racial undertones too not under I mean just like blatant racism that was happening and like I think you know and this really started to come to light in 2020 um you know with the racial Reckoning that we were going through as a country as well and um you know props to you know the black music Action Coalition and everybody else to kind of put pressure on the major to be like yo like yeah you everybody but like really you the black community the most um and with these deals and so fortunately a lot of the labels have started to to write those historical wrongs and it's amazing hopefully fingers crossed learn from this as in just like moving forward like you know what it's not a good look for us to continue to artists like one it's not good business because they could just go release the music on their own and then usually now yeah especially now and like you know the report just came out that in 2022 uh Independent Artists and self-distributed artists held 35 of the global recorded music Market 35 that's like of the all the money that was made in recorded music 35 of that money went to Indies wow amazing yeah yeah and like if you think of all the power that the majors have and are like you know um all the money they're looking at that those numbers are like holy like they're on our Tails like we we better like you know figure yeah get it together so you know all that being said it's nice to hear from an artist signed to a major that's like it's it's rolling they're happy in their deal it's going well and it's nice to hear that there are good people uh at Majors these days that are kind of taking care of of their artists in that capacity I think it's also too just having like if you have at least one person on your team that like my manager Joe like literally trusts the dudes my life it's like if you have one person that you're like you got my back like I trust whatever we're doing like we're going in this together like and he's so experienced and worked at a major and has like done the thing like if you have your one person that you're like all right we're in this I trust you like and you know they're not going to let you get over like that is everything too so I I think finding that person for for me has been everything for sure huge no I mean absolutely and it is a testament to your management um and that Joe will go to bat for you and make sure that you stay you know protected and and in all the business relationships and deals that you sign that's that's huge I mean you need someone on that team and you know I'm sure you've heard from your friends and I've heard you know I was just like fortunately there's a lot of shitty managers out there too that like you know uh so I it's it's um I guess you've been fortunate that you've surrounded yourself with great people and that's awesome um I'm curious about um you know you're a clearly a prolific uh songwriter uh artist I mean not just on the songs that you write for others in the endless sessions you do but like I believe I counted that you release like almost 20 songs a year just under your own name at least that's what's on Spotify I know you do you have 60 tracks that you released since 2020. um so like is that is that you're doing is that the label saying you know what to keep the Spotify algorithm rolling like we gotta be releasing every other month so let's let's go on this or was that you and Joby like oh like how do we tweak this I'm curious like that's a lot of music to put out under an artist's name um and so what is the strategy behind that definitely Joe and I our goal ever since we like started was like let's just be as consistent as we can and put out as much music as possible and exactly the label is also down for that um so yeah like we did my album lady Jesus which was 10 songs and then we did a live album which I think was like 15 or 16 songs which were all already released obviously with those added to that just like kept the ball moving I guess um or the ball rolling yeah and then um I mean because I am in sessions like literally every day sometimes two a day there's a lot of songs that never see the light of day yeah um so it's always like if I'm like oh I want to put out a song every six weeks it's easy we have a whole like Dropbox folder to pull from which is great um and so I think yeah for me it's just like when I'm writing so much and I'm feeling inspired is the goal is to just put out as much music as possible and that's like my goal for this year definitely is like cool putting out as many singles as I can yeah cool and and you have a bunch of remixes um like at what point do you decide that you want to have somebody remix the song and actually officially release it I think that just depends on like the nature of the song like I did a lot of remixes for my song into my body which is very like Dancy housy whatever so it just kind of naturally felt like we should do that and like cool doing features has been really fun and like doing features with artists that maybe aren't in the same world as me has been really cool because it's like opened up a whole new fan base to me and like yeah that's been really cool and I think just yeah just trying to like dip my toe in in as many kind of Worlds as possible because obviously I'm like an alts pop whatever that means now I don't know but like that's what I am but it's cool to like Venture off into other worlds and work with other artists and do collabs or whatever it's been really fun yeah the feature um like you did with Gail and uh blue to Tiger um how did that come to be and like blue tiger for those that don't know I mean she's this dope bass player uh who kind of like really broke out kind of over uh the pandemic on Tick Tock and Instagram just by shredding the bass because she's so talented and now she's got a whole artist project um and Gail of course broke out with her song ABCD a few um so tell me about that how that collaboration came to be in that feature that was just I mean like the three of us have always just been fans of each other so we're just like always like sliding into each other's DMS being like yes babe like up and so um when Gail was gonna put out I think that song was already out um easy was already out and then she wanted to do like a remix of it and because we all just are very much in the same kind of world and um were like friends from social media and we had done a few sessions together um actually yeah I had worked with blue and Gaelic separately in sessions before and like cool blue and played bass on a couple of my songs that I'd put out so like we all were kind of already collabing and it was like let's all just like do this little Trio together it'd be fun so that was all that was all Gail's doing and that was like so fun filming like the music video was just like in this backyard just hanging out all day it was it was really cool it's a fun process cool the power of the DM and social media friends crazy I just heard I was talking to uh my friend uh Victoria canal and uh she was on the the show as well um and she just got the Hosier tour um she's the direct support for Hozier uh I was like how did this happen she's like I saw he started following me I just literally dm'd it was like Hey if you ever need support he's like actually I do and boom amazing always happens yeah it's so crazy so yeah um nice and let me see okay so here's something that I'm curious about when we kind of get into um the touring side of everything um in the economics um so I see that you do you have uh VIP meet and greets for most of the the shows um did you do that for the last run as well I did yeah so talk to me about the um kind of how those work um and just kind of the philosophy behind doing them and uh yeah just how these this VIP process goes genuinely it funds the tour and so being um yeah it funds like most of the tour which is amazing um and it just creates a really fun the way we run like my VIP or meet and greet or whatever you want to call it is like very small like Max 50 people and um we're just like hanging out for an hour and like get to like actually spend time like it's not like a like the reason we cap it is so that I can actually talk and like hang out with people um so it just like makes it a fun for me at least I feel like the people who come to the the meet and greet at the beginning like they're there early we're hanging out I do a little like acoustic set we'll sing together sometimes ask questions get pictures do the thing and then it's like then at the show that's normally like the front couple rows or like those people who I already have been hanging out with for the past like hour or whatever so it just creates a fun and there's always like a ridiculously cheesy speech I give of like you guys are here you set the Vibes for everyone else coming like make sure everyone is making friends or taking care of each other and so it's just this like cute core group of people that set the Vibes for the night and like yeah it's really really it's really fun I I think that's like one of my favorite parts of the tour is like getting to because you know when I'm like opening I go and hang out at merge after my set and like meet people and that's always so chaotic and you're like yeah scream streaming talking over the noise and like the VIP thing is just so intimate and just chill which is really really cool nice that's great to hear um and I I saw just uh most of the tickets are like about three times more than the face general admission ticket right something like that I think I think it depends on the show yeah yeah it's like you know most of the shows are like 18 20 something like that and most of the the VIP tickets are like 60 something or something like that um but that's great to hear that it funds the tour and I think that's really important for a lot of artists out there to hear that because there's you know I think there's um there's healthy ways of doing this there's and then there's ways that don't feel necessarily as uh valuable or in a way that um maybe as um Community oriented as you've made it and um I think the artists that are doing it really well are doing it like how you're doing it where it's a hang it's an acoustic performance it's like that intimacy it's not get in line 30 second photo op next kind of a thing that's why I know like most artists have like we have such a thing against like why would people pay to say hello to me like that's absolutely insane which I agree but when it's if you can make it more of an experience rather than like hi photo by like making it a like we're like hanging out this is like another added thing to the show like that to me makes it more like worth it for me and like makes me feel better about the situation when it does it is such a financial help on the tour being like still a very low mid artist um so yeah it definitely helps but trying to make it as much of a like joined experience and like people make friends through it like it's I try to make it as much of an experience as possible yeah that's awesome um well everyone listening to this go grab a ticket to um tour coming up um I this has been great uh thank you for for being so candid and just going in with me on on all these issues and sides of it um well I have one final question that I ask everyone who comes on the show um what does it mean to you to make it in the new music business that's the real question I saw that that was going to be asked right before this and I was like what does that mean I honestly think what it means to me and there's there's always a part of me that's like chasing like a Grammy or chasing like selling out MSG or whatever but I think to me making it in the new music business is me getting to make music for a living every day and I've gone to do that for the past five years and if I can be doing that five years from now hopefully on a bit of a bigger level that to me like I feel like I haven't made it but like I have like in my soul I feel like getting to do this is my job like we've made it you know upsell that's great thank you so much thank you thank you so much seriously this is so fun yeah [Music] today's episode was edited by Max Hunter theme music by brass Roots district and produced by all the great people at Ari's take

2023-04-03 03:53

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