Life-Changing Insights From Traveling To Every Country In The World (ft. Drew Binsky)
- If you could meet a North Korean, what would you say? If you were shot at in Somalia, what would you do? If you got attacked in the Congo, where would you go? Drew Binsky has experienced all of these things. He's a travel vlogger, a YouTuber, and an author. He has spoken to North Koreans in North Korea.
He's alluded bombings in Somalia and visited Syria during the height of its civil war to volunteer and help civilians. Drew has been to every country in the world. He has seen the most dangerous places and survived the most destructive regimes, and that makes his message all the more surprising. Most people, most of the time are good and happy.
Most of them will help you even if they have nothing. According to Drew, human resilience and optimism has no bounds. Even in the worst places on earth, you will still find a heavy dose of hope. Travel has been one of the most important parts of my personal journey.
I've not been to as many countries as Drew has, but I have found no better education on humanity and human nature than visiting as many countries as possible and trying to understand their cultures. It teaches you what you believe to be universal was actually merely your own cultural bias and the things that you thought were unique about your culture are actually kinda universal. It's one of the most important things that I've ever done for myself and the education I got is still paying dividends today. And that's why when I had the opportunity to have Drew on the show and hear his stories, I took it. In this episode, you will learn why Drew is drawn to war zones, failed states and impoverished countries, and what he's learned from all of them. Why you should never, ever judge a country or culture based on what you saw on the news.
Why the most impactful trips are rarely the most fun and why the most fun trips are rarely the most impactful. What Drew's favorite country in the world is and which country had the biggest impact on him personally. Why the real damage of war cannot be measured in death tolls or economic statistics, and why you never hear about the true repercussions in the headlines and where the friendliest people are in the world, and how they became that way. Drew also shares some of his basic travel tips on how to be more spontaneous, how to connect with locals, what he looks for when he travels, and much, much more. So enjoy this one.
It made me a little bit nostalgic to get back on the road myself, but more about that soon. This is Drew Binsky. Let's get into it. - [Announcer] Bro, do you even podcast. Like, bro. This is "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Podcast" with your host, Mark Manson. - Drew Binsky, thanks for coming to the show, man.
- Pleasure. - Nice to meet you. - You as well. - Yeah, why don't we start with kind of a broad philosophical question.
What is universal in the world that most people assume is not? - That's a good question. Everybody has a heartbeat and everyone's blood is red. So that's a lot of people are like, "Aren't people different? Aren't you scared to go places?" I'm like, "Everyone is generally friendly, so wherever you go in the world, people are gonna look out for you."
And that you hear about terrorism and you hear about things that bad people, but in general, like people are dying to meet you. They just don't get the chance to meet you. So that's kind of what I've realized from even like African tribes where you really don't have that much in common on the outside, but on the inside, they gotta find food, they gotta find a way to make money. They gotta sleep somewhere.
They gotta send their kids to school. So that's kinda the main overarching thing that I've learned. - It's like basic human needs and desires. - You don't necessarily realize that until you go to like South Sudan and you're sleeping with a tribe and you're just like, whoa. And like they just, the little kids are playing around and they're punching each other and it's like, yeah, it's the same thing that you do when you were a kid. - Yeah. Yeah. - And it's really
rewarding to see that. - What would you say, you know, especially going to these places where you're obviously a foreigner, what would you, like what percentage is the response immediately warm versus maybe tepid or skeptical or antagonistic? - 99% warm. - Wow. - Yeah. - Wow. - The American thing, I don't really hide being American.
Maybe in some countries at certain times, I would avoid it. Like if I went to Russia right now, I dunno, I might say I'm Canadian just to avoid, you know, extra questions. But like Iran's a great example. They love America. They love, absolutely love. And you would think that they don't like America or maybe the government, whatever, but I'm applying for my visa to go back for a third time. I really like it there.
And they're super cool and they all have an uncle, I mean, we're in LA right now, I mean, there's like a, there's a million Persians in Iran. It's the biggest Iranian influence outside of the country. But like that's a great example of this wrong misconception. People just love American, ask you questions about it.
They grew up on TV and music. To answer your question, 99% of people would positively, yeah. - I actually ran into that in Russia as well. I mean, it's a little bit more polarized there, but I remember everybody, when I was in Russia, everybody, every Russian that I met was like so thrilled that I was American. And finally I asked a couple of 'em, I was like, like our governments hate each other. We just went through like 70 years of a Cold War, you know? And they were like, "Ah, it's like brothers, you beat each other up, but it's because you love each other." (chuckles)
I was like, Okay. - Yeah. - (chuckling) Sure. - Yeah. It's like that though. I mean, that's not just Russia, it's other places too, you now? - Like here domestically, you know, the vast majority of us are not satisfied with our own government. We don't necessarily agree with all the things that our government does or stands for or says to other countries or other cultures and you, I think we forget that most people in the world are the same.
Like hey don't really agree with their government either. They don't like all the things that their government's doing either. - Yeah, and when you turn on the news, you're only getting the negative stuff.
- Yeah. - 'Cause that's how they get interest from people and that's how they make money. The headlines are always negative. - [Mark] Yeah. - I would say the one place that I went where I told them I was American, that they were a little bit standoffish was North Korea. - Yeah. (laughing)
- I can speak a bit of Korean, so I was able to kinda like talk to them, but it wasn't that they were like scared of Americans, but they just, all they know about America is, you know, propaganda stuff that... - [Mark] Yeah. - And so they were just kinda like really shocked when I said I was American. But then I talked to them and one guy invited me to play tennis, so it's just like, they're just people.
- How did that come about, the North Korea thing? - I went on a guided tour in 2017, flew into Beijing and then did a mandatory briefing, and then spent three days in Pyongyang. And I'm one of the lots Americans until now to step foot in the country, because when I came back, if you can remember Otto Warmbier, I was in North Korea when he was in labor camps, and I knew that was going on. - Wow. - And then as soon as I left North Korea, I was living in Bangkok, so I went back to Bangkok, and Otto went home to Ohio and passed away.
And then that was the moment that President Trump banned Americans, I dunno if he did, but Americans became banned to visit North Korea until now. So I think I'm one of the last dozen or so Americans to step foot in North Korea. - Were you aware of that before you went in? - I knew I couldn't like break the rules. - Didn't, (laughing) well, yeah.
(laughing) Didn't that worry you, like where did... - You attend a mandatory briefing in Beijing and it's basically like the do's and don'ts, which is mostly don'ts. - Yeah. - And I just followed the rules and I went. - Yeah. - Yeah.
It was really interesting. - Yeah, what stood out about it? - It's dark and depressing and really isolated. And a lot of the buildings, like you would imagine, are empty.
There's like really tall hotels. There's like a hundred-story Pyramid Hotel in Pyongyang. If you've seen a picture of the skyline, you've seen it, and it's empty, it's weird. - Wow. - And the coolest part was I did a 10K in the marathon, the Pyongyang Marathon.
- Okay. - So it was like half foreigners and half North Koreans. I can't run a full marathon, but I just did that as an opportunity to like mingle with the people on the side, shaking hands, like talking a bit. - Yeah. - So that was kinda cool. - Did the people seem anxious or nervous to talk to you? - Yes. - Yeah.
(Mark laughing) - 'Cause I said like, (speaking in Korean) which means I'm American. And that's the first time I opened up to them and then they were just like really shocked to hear that. But then I just told them I lived in South Korea, they actually don't hate South Korea.
Korea- - Interesting. - Before 1953, Korea was one country. - Yeah. - And a lot of people don't know this, but in the first few years after the Korean War, North Korea was thriving and South Korea wasn't, and then it switched in the 70s.
So that's pretty recent. Like my grandfather was in the Korean War. They still have the same last names, like Kim, Park, Chen, like it's very similar.
- Yeah, and it's, well, you hear stories too of, there's like siblings and cousins who were separated 60 years ago and, you know, haven't reunited, or reunited the DMZ or- - Right. - Stuff like that. - But culturally though, like they're very similar - Yeah. - The way they speak and, I mean, the language has evolved a bit, but like kimchi and like the way they bow and the way they have respect for the elders and like that stuff's all the same. I could talk about Korea a lot, but I'm sure we got a lot, I'm sure we got a lot of stuff to go to.
- I got a question for you around, you mentioned that, you know, you followed the rules. You learned the rules and you went and you followed the rules. And I think a lot of people are, you know, hesitant to go places because of safety issues and stuff like that. Obviously you've put yourself in some very dangerous situations, but it seems like you've really done your homework before. And I think that's kinda one of the antidotes to not being, or putting yourself in dangerous situations, is having that knowledge before and just following the rules. What kind of preparation do you do when you go into some of these places? - My answer might not be what you're expecting.
I actually am pretty spontaneous and I kinda go with the flow, but that being said, I know, I get in touch with the right local person. Usually it's one person who is either a licensed tour guide or someone who's very familiar with traveling around the country and understands my mission, which is to document and tell stories. And I kinda put my trust into them and they, you know, show me a good time. And this has worked in Mainland Yemen, eight-day road trip with one Yemeni guy.
Afghanistan, I spent a month in Afghanistan and two different trips, Iran, Somalia, Pakistan, Congo. I don't go in completely alone. I go in, I travel solo to these places. Like on the plane, I fly solo, and then at the airport I'll meet up with a local person and then, you know, I trust, I've done my research, due diligence with them through Zoom calls and asking questions and making sure they know the plan.
And from then I just, I'm just with them and then trust that I'll be safe. And to this day, I've never been mug, kidnapped, robbed in every country, so I think that says something. - How much of, like, does understanding the culture or the history or the politics play a role in just kind of understanding those do's and don'ts? - That matters a lot, 'cause in some countries, like in Syria where when you go there, I went there in 2019, and all the buildings were destroyed around me. And certain regions are off limits and some questions you can't ask to people.
So I do have to know those things. But I think the more I travel, the more I've realized, like, I pick up on social cues, and I'm just good at, like, I'm good in these situations. It's like, what's it called when people know a lot of languages, what's it called? - Polyglots. - Polyglots. They say once you get past five, six languages, they become much easier because there's like certain cues in different languages that just make like.. - Just pattern recognition. - It's kinda similar to that.
It's like the more you visit war-torn countries or conflict zones, you kinda understand the layout of the land and how to approach it. I wish I had a specific answer, but it's more of just like experience kinda helps with that. - Well, back to the trust thing though.
I've heard you do vet a lot of people on social media- - Yes, definitely. - You talk to 'em beforehand and stuff like that. You have to lead with trust in those situations, I'm guessing. And you just freely give trust.
What have you kinda learned about human relationships through that, I guess? It's crazy, you've already said 99% of people are warm and open to that. - Yeah. - But when you lead with trust like that, I think there's even another level to it. - There's trust until the trust is broken. And just very few times, maybe you can count on one hand how many local friends or fixers, that I like to call them, they help me out, that they've steered me wrong, not dangerously, but it just wasn't, there wasn't a connection there. And at those points, I just would make an excuse or leave or find a way to get out of it.
But a lot of these people are my followers too that have joined the journey since 2017, since I started making videos. So they know exactly what I'm trying to do, which is document like cultures, get inside homes, and, like we talked about Bourdain, like he's my inspiration for doing all this stuff. So just the way he can break bread with people and like sit down and have a conversation and it's all about the people. It's not about the nature or, nature is cool, but I never, I don't even consider nature when I travel. - Yeah. - Everyone's like,
"Isn't Switzerland the most beautiful?" I'm like, "Personally," I'm like, "I just think it's boring." I mean, there's not, I don't wanna pick on... - Apologies to the Swiss listeners right now. - There we go. - I don't wanna pick on Switzerland.
I was in Berlin yesterday and I was talking to Germans about this, but maybe I shouldn't pick on Switzerland, but like it's great to have nice nature- - I mean, Switzerland's neutral, right? Like they'll be fine. - They're neutral, but like, they're just really, they're not so open to be filmed and it's just more of like a private kind of culture, which you'll find a lot in Western Europe. But yeah, I travel for people, people stories. I wanna know how people are living, what's their religion, what are they eating, why do they do certain things, customs? - You mentioned earlier that you went to Syria, either immediately, like during or immediately after the war.
- During. - Okay. - Yeah. - What brought that about? - Well, I was visiting every country. So that's a country. - It was on the list, it was the next one on the list.
- You couldn't wait for the war to end or- - No, so getting, so getting, this is a good story that I haven't told much. Getting the Syrian visa, it's in the book, was impossible for Americans and still kind of is, but now there's a loophole that you can get it. So the only way I was able to get into Syria in 2019 was through a French, a Christian French NGO, the founder of that was a follower. And he was like, "Hey," he DMed me on Instagram was like, "Hey, I can help you get the," it's a volunteer visa, so it's not a tourist visa. - Yeah. - If you come to volunteer with our organization, we can get you into Syria.
And I said, "Sure." And it took like six months of back and forth paperwork, interviews, and finally I got the visa and I got it in Beirut, which is just a two-hour drive to the border. And then I was able to cross over land. I still thought when I got to the border, they were gonna deny me, but I got in.
And so I went, the whole time, the whole 10 days I was in Syria, I was with this Christian NGO and I was volunteering a bit, and then I would go off and shoot my YouTube videos and then I would go back. I was sleeping in bunk beds with all of these French volunteers for this, spreading Christianity. I'm Jewish, so I'm in Syria.
I'm in Syria, I'm with the Christian NGO, like trying to document Muslim culture or Arab culture. And I ended up traveling around the country with them. And it was really, it was really great. But that was the only way I could get in. And I was just really curious to know what life is like in Syria because all the surrounding countries I love.
- Yeah. - Lebanon, Iran, Iraq. So I just had a really good time in Syria. - What did you learn during that period? - That people are resilient. - Yeah. - Yeah. Even though like, I was interviewing people and the background is just rubble, like just all the buildings are collapsed and they were just like, yeah, we're hoping for a better tomorrow. Like I was inside of their shops that are just completely bombed, like a room like this, but everything's bombed.
And, you know, some tears are shedding and they're just like, we can't wait for the country to rebuild. And that's crazy. - Yeah. - Like you can say people
are resilient around the world, but I haven't seen resilience like that. - Yeah. - You know, where you're physically like in a place that you have to be stepping over giant like rocks just to get into the place. But Syrian people are really friendly.
Like before the war, it was thriving. It was a tourist destination. Like there's a beautiful Mediterranean beach in Syria and people don't even know that there's beaches in Syria. Beautiful beaches, like crystal clear water and food is great.
I mean, it's Mesopotamia. It's the cradle of civilization. You know, so everyone knows that word Mesopotamia 'cause we studied it in third grade. - Of course. Yeah, the bread basket of the world. - It's like, I told my parents I was going to Iraq and they were like, "Be careful on this." "I'm gonna Mesopotamia" and they're like, "Oh, that's cool." Like it's the same place.
- It's in Iraq. Yeah, yeah, yeah. - This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Quick check-in, how is your brain doing today? Is it like a serene spa or a fuckin' dumpster fire surrounded by sirens? Look, we all know life can get chaotic, especially when we're juggling a million things at once: work, bills, family, friends, your health, it really is like a carnival at times.
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That's betterhelp.com/idgaf. - Well, we kinda touched on this already, but there is this media perception of these certain places, Syria and other places like that. What are some of the biggest gaps you've seen between the media portrayal and like your boots on the ground assessment of it? Because, like for me, I have a lot of deeply held beliefs about people in places I've never met, never been to.
Recently that's kinda been eating at me a little bit. And I was wondering if you could give some perspective on, okay, this is like, is there some horrible place we all think is a horrible place that isn't? Syria might be one of them. What have you learned about that sort of thing, the media disconnect from reality? - Afghanistan's a good example, but in general, to answer your question, the media usually has an agenda where they're talking about negative things. Very rarely I will turn on CNN or whatever media and they're like sharing a positive story about a slice of culture in the Middle East.
Afghanistan, I've been twice. This most recent time was right before Taliban takeover, but I've had many friends go to Afghanistan since Taliban takeover and they told me it's very safe. The Taliban are trying to push tourism. For what it's worth, I'm not saying I support Taliban, but that's an example. I met a lot of Taliban and that's an example of a country that is pretty safe, I would say as a tourist.
Like they look out for you, they're really hospitable, people in Afghanistan. They will like break their knees for you to sleep in their house and offer you tea and stuff. And it's a beautiful, beautiful country. So that's one place I think that I don't think anyone's ever heard a positive story about Afghanistan- - I was just gonna say, there's still a reaction in me, but I'm like, no, that's bullshit. Right, like that's, but, I mean, I believe you, but there's still like this visceral reaction to that- - I've made 14 videos in that country and I hope to go back, but almost all of them have been positive, just about different places and cultures. And it's just like, I met the last Jew in Afghanistan.
He left now, but there was one Jewish person left and he runs the synagogue in Kabul. And that was like one of my favorite stories I've ever- - Wait, he ran on a synagogue in Kabul? - There's a synagogue in Kabul - With one Jew in the whole country. - Yes. And he keeps it orthodox. Yeah. - So he was the only one who would go to the synagogue or- - Yeah, yeah, so the rabbi that he communicates with is in Tashkent Uzbekistan, the next country over. And, yeah, he keeps all the kosher and all the holidays and stuff, but he now left the country.
So there's now zero Jews left in Afghanistan. But that was one of, that was one of my favorite stories I told. But there's so many little corners of that country that's, there's 35 million people there.
Like that's a lot of people. That's almost, what, California has 50 million? - Yeah. - So 80% of the population of California, that's Afghanistan. - Yeah. - That's crazy
when you think about it like that. That is wild. Yeah. - Yeah. I like it. You brought up a point that I've definitely found to be true as well, which is the worst the reputation of a place, the more the locals almost overcompensate for that. - Yeah. True. - Like they, like we just got back from El Salvador.
We were talking about it before we went live, doing a YouTube video on it, and it was the same down there. It was like everybody was like, "Oh my god, Americans are here." Like roll out the red carpet. (chuckles) This is our chance to make a good impression, you know? - It used to be really dangerous up until a few years ago. - Yeah, absolutely, I mean, highest murder rate in the world.
- Yep. - Six or seven years ago. And it's become very safe now. And the video will be about kind of that transition. But to your point as well, you know, about the resilience, there were a number of people that we talked to down there.
You know, I would kinda, I was asking them questions about the changes and I would say like, "Oh, you must be really happy now." And I remember there was this one old woman and she said, "We've always been happy." She's like, "Even when the gangs were killing everybody, we were still happy.
It's just now we're safe." And I was like, "Touche." - The story, I can't wait to watch your video, by the way. - Yeah. - When's it coming out? - Probably July. - Okay. - Yeah.
- The video that's coming out tomorrow on my YouTube channel is from the biggest favela in Sao Paulo. - Oh, nice. - I went there two months ago and similar like, people were like kissing my feet that I came as an American and I was kind of, I've been around Brazil, but not Sao Paulo and not the favelas. And I just went with a local friend and we just walked through the streets and that was really interesting. But the people were smiley, happy.
Like the police are too scared to go to this place 'cause they'll get shot at. - Yeah. - And so gangs and drug lords run this place. - Yeah. - It's called Paraisopolis. But I found people to be really fun, and they kept telling me, they're like, "Everyone around you right now is like involved in crime and stuff," like kidnappings outside of the favela.
Inside the favela, what's going on, guys? How you doing?. Really friendly. Like looking after, they don't wanna commit crime in their own place, 'cause everyone knows each other. I thought that was really interesting.
There's like a bubble of safety in this place, but these guys are all criminals outside the favela. But I was talking to them like face to, like this, asking them questions about it and they're open about it, it was crazy. - Yeah, the favelas in Brazil, I'm gonna ask my wife about that. She's from Sao Paulo. - Oh, okay. - And I lived down there
for a couple years. - Oh, you did? Nice. - Yeah. - Do you know Paraisopolis? - I've heard of it. I've never been. - Yeah. - But I've been to, I've been to a couple of the favelas in Rio and, yeah, it's a wild dynamic.
Like it's kind of a, there's almost, especially during Carnival, like there's all these parties up in the favelas and it's almost like, it's kinda like when an armistice is called, you know, you hear stories like World War I where the French and German soldiers played soccer on Christmas? Right, right. Yes. - It feels like carnival is that in the favelas. It's like, okay, we're all, no crime for a week. We're all just gonna hang out and have parties together and then we'll get back to robbing you next week. - That's kinda what it's like though. - Yeah. - There are really
kindhearted people in Brazil in general. - Yeah. Oh yeah, super warm. - Yeah, so I agree with what you just said. (Mark chuckling) - The world is a funny place, man. It's like, it's... - Where else have you lived, by the way? - So I was nomadic for seven years.
- Cool. - [Mark] So I spent about a year and a half in Southeast Asia, mostly in Thailand, but also Vietnam. And lived in Brazil for two years.
Spent four years in South America, primarily Brazil, which is where my wife's from, but also Columbia and Argentina, and then a little bit in Europe, here and there. - Nice. - You know, Russia, UK, Germany for a little while. - Cool. - It was amazing. I mean, it's like one of the best things I ever did - Yep. - Is live abroad and just travel and explore.
- I was nomadic for about seven, eight years in Asia. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's...
- Yeah, it's great. - Any young person, it is one of the, I mean, anybody, but like, especially if you're young, 'cause it's easier when you're young, you know, it's- - It's the best thing you can do. - It is. - It's the best thing you can do, period. - It is. It's the best education. - Yep.
- Like it's, to this day, it's still paying dividends. I actually, it's interesting. I've had this conversation with my publishers. My books have been, I think, number one in like 13 or 14 different countries.
And I've talked to agents and publishers and they're like, "This is kinda, this is crazy." Like the international appeal, they're like, usually it's just the English market and maybe one or two other languages or maybe it's, you know, here, like, there'll be like one random market, like Japan, it takes off. But I really attribute that to the amount of time I spent abroad, because these questions of like, what is universal that most people don't realize is universal and then like what is actually particular to American culture, that most Americans don't realize it's particular, like. - Right. - That I think in a nutshell, that has informed a lot of my career success.
- It makes sense though. Like I grew up sheltered in America. Like probably all of us did. I went to University of Wisconsin. I was in a fraternity.
I was living in a frat house and I loved that life, but I didn't know of, I thought that was just normal. It was normal. It was normal. - Sure. - But then- - In Wisconsin, yeah. - Yeah. It was great.
But then I studied abroad in Prague and then I taught English in Korea for two years and then it just totally shaped my world, like what we're talking about. And then when I come back home, you know, things are pretty much the same here, but what's in your head is different. - Right. - And I just think that people should travel more.
It just makes you more wise, well-rounded, respectful, and understanding of how people live. - Yes. - Which is really important. - And I would say it is clarified, I feel like I have a much clearer and better relationship with the United States.
- Same. - For living abroad. 'Cause you come back and you, now you actually, like now I feel like I actually know like what's good in the US and what's not good in the US. - Right. - Whereas, you know, I think it's easy to get caught up in all the political narratives and news media narratives and stuff.
And a lot of that stuff is just like way off base. - I agree completely. - Completely skewed. - And the US is great, by the way. - It is. - It's huge. - Yes. - It's massive.
It's almost bigger than Europe, I think, if you include Alaska in size. It's bigger than Europe. 50 states, 64 national parks, which are all beautiful. There's a lot going on here. I know we're like a world power and we have a lot of influence on the world, but if you forget about that and just think about as a destination to travel, you can get in a car and just freely drive anywhere. And it's pretty great.
- Well, that's what I always say too, but people are like, "Why don't Americans travel?" I'm like, "First of all- - That's the main reason why. - We're huge, yeah. - 'Cause we can travel anywhere within America. But like Arizona, Utah, Colorado, California, if you've drive in those states, it's some of the best in the world. - Yeah. - It's probably the best
road trip in the world. - Yeah. - That circle. - I live in Colorado. - You do? - I would agree with that.
Yeah. - It's so great. - Love Colorado. - And we do take that for granted because we just, you know.
- It wasn't until I moved to the US with my wife and she was like, "I wanna do road trips." And I was like, "Ugh, really?" (chuckling) You know, as someone who grew up in America, I was like, "Really, a road trip?" And then we ended up doing, we did a road trip through the Western US. - It was fantastic. - Unbelievable.
Unbelievable. - It's so good. - It's so, it's gorgeous. It's absolutely gorgeous. And I always tell people to just road trip the West. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, speaking of which, what would you say, what trip was the most transformative for you? - India, so after I left Korea, I lived in Korea for two years teaching English.
I was 24, single, and I had a goal to visit every country in the world. I was at about 50 at that time. And I said India, I haven't been to India yet. Three months solo backpacking. Flew to India and I did, started Goa, have you been India? - Yep. - Okay.
Started Goa in the South, kind of South. And then I basically took buses and trains all the way up through Rajasthan. So I did like all the Western and Northwest, not all. (chuckles) India's, I've been seven times and I still, there's so much. - It's huge. Yeah. - So many places to go.
But yeah, a lot of the Central and Western India and Northwestern India. And I just learned a lot about myself. You know, I was on a shoestring budget. I wasn't making much money. I think I was spending 1,000 a month, including accommodations and food, which is pretty decent, I think, for India.
Like you can get a lot of things for a little bit money. - Very little. Yeah. - And, yeah, I just think my true colors came out and I was by myself, so, and I wasn't making YouTube videos at this time. I was blogging. I used to have a travel website. It was called the HungryPartier.com. And I basically about food and nightlife around the world.
So I was like partying in India. I went to a Switchfoot concert. Do you know that band? - Yeah, I know Switchfoot. Yeah. - Switchfoot in Mumbai. At the Hard Rock, Mumbai. I don't think I've ever told that to anyone until right now. This just never came up.
I went to a Switchfoot concert, met a lot of cool people, and unfortunately I got in a bus crash in India and two people died on the bus. It was towards the end of my trip. And so to this day, I don't take like bus, like overnight buses to get places.
That's a dark story, but yeah, I learned a lot in India and I got food poisoning three times, like severe food poisoning. I lost like 15 pounds on the trip. But I've been back to India six more times since then, and I'm gonna go back probably again at the end of this year.
There's so many stories in India. - I always answer that question with India as well. And it's, for me, it's the extremity. - Yes. - Like, I actually wrote an article about it many, many years ago.
And I think what it is is like you can have one of the most beautiful experiences in your life on one street corner. - Yes. - Walk two blocks down the street and have one of the most horrifying (chuckling) and disgusting experiences of your life. And it's on the same street and it's like the same afternoon. - Yep. - The same place and- - I have a specific example of that in Agra, which is the most beautiful building in the world.
- Yeah. - Taj Mahal. I saw, that morning, I saw, I was driving there and I saw a dead person in the street. - Yeah. - And there wasn't
even like police there to, ambulance there. It was just a dead person. There was people surrounding them. I don't know how the person died, but I saw with my eyes a dead person on the street. And then an hour later, I was at Taj Mahal. - [Mark] Yeah.
- You're you're absolutely right. It's "Everything Everything All at Once," what, I don't... - Yeah, "Everything Everywhere All at Once"- - "Everything Everywhere All at Once" and it's like, you get a lot of attention too.
And they speak English. A lot of Indians speak English, the majority of them, I think. And so they'll come up to you on the street and ask you questions. Not much concept of space, so they'll be right here talking to you. And they're friendly people, very friendly, but there's a lot going on.
And as you said, like, you'll see it all. In one day, you'll see everything. - Yeah, and incredibly hospitable. But then there's also a lot of, for lack of a better word, like scams. I spent about six weeks there and it was probably at least once a week, either to me or somebody like at my hostel or somebody I was traveling with, like, you know, we would just get sold something. - Yeah. - That didn't exist.
(Mark laughing) (Drew laughing) And, you know, it'd take you a few hours to figure it out and then you're like, oh, oh, god dammit, again? - They're very smart. Yeah. - Yeah. Yeah, they're crafty. - Yeah, I always say like, India's my favorite and least favorite country in the world.
- Yeah. - Yeah. Love-hate relationship. - It's tough, I've like wanted to take my wife for a long time, but I always tell her, I'm like, "This is not gonna be an enjoyable trip." Like this is a trip to learn about yourself and learn about the world. There are gonna be days where you're like, "What am I doing here?" - Yeah, I took my wife there and we had a good time overall.
But it's tricky. - It's intense. It's really intense. - I do recommend everyone to go to India.
- It's incredible. - You learn so much about yourself, about the world. It's the most populous country in the world. - Yeah. - It just passed China like a few months ago. That's crazy, it's a third the size of the US with five times the amount of people.
- [Mark] Which if you've been to Downtown Deli- - That's not surprising. - No, it's not. There's like people stacked on top of people, on top of people, but it is an incredible place. Shout out to all the Indian listeners. We have a lot of 'em. And yeah, one day I'll go back too.
- Yeah, there's a lot of stories to tell there, man. - Yeah. - As you know. - It's a wild place.
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As in, I don't give a fuck. Except I do give a about money and you should too. Do you ever worry that you're getting desensitized to this stuff? - Yeah. - Like after enough war zones, like maybe you're like, the thing that's protecting you just kind of like gets numb- - Yeah, I think there's something like that. Yeah.
- Yeah. - I think I just don't, I don't phase at things, situations. I don't know what like gene that is, if it's a genetic thing or not, but- - So that's always been there or do you think you've gotten less... Like were you fearful the first time you went to a war zone? - No, so I guess it has always been.
Like when I was a kid, I never went to war zones. I don't know what that having no fear thing is. I'm sure that's something you've tried to unpack throughout your career as a storyteller as well. Is that a gene? - I personally think so.
- Yeah. - I think some people, you hear it a lot from like military guys. - Yeah. - Or like that free solo climber. - Yeah. - Alex Honnold.
- Yes. - There's a circuit that's just like not there. - I just, yeah.
I don't know what it is, but a lot of people ask me that. They're like, aren't you too scared to go here? And like Mogadishu's the most dangerous city in the world. That place is crazy, and I'm happy to talk about it, but I went in there just hanging out, like, I mean, it's crazy out there.
- What happened there? How did that happen? - I went to Somaliland, which is an unrecognized country. It's the northern part of Somalia, and so I wanted to go to real Somalia, so I went to Mogadishu. And just to leave the airport, like the hotel picked me up, but they had a convoy of like a pickup truck in front, a pickup truck behind, all bulletproof, blackout windows. And there were four guys in bulletproof vests and big automatic weapons on each, like the bed of the truck, they were on each corner. So there were eight guys and then us in a Jeep, blacked out windows. And then every time we'd have to get outta the car, for the three days I was there, anytime I would get out, all the eight guys would scope around, look over every fence, like, and then they would be like, "Okay, he can come."
And I had like 10 minutes to go anywhere and then I'd have to go back in the car. That's how dangerous it is. - Wow. - There's kidnappings, attacks. I stayed in the Hayat and two months after I left, the whole hotel was bombed and like 40 people died in that hotel, same hotel. - Jesus Christ, dude. - I have a selfie in this like ice cream shop in the lobby of the Hayat.
And like I saw a picture of that ice cream shop and it's gone. So it's just a crazy place, Mogadishu, unfortunately. - Do you worry that like, I mean, 'cause a certain amount of that is just luck, right? - Yeah. - Like there's a small chance that something really goes sideways. - Yeah. - Each time you go
to one of these places. - There is, there is. Yeah, I don't really worry. - Yeah. - Is there an adrenaline rush to it? - Yes, absolutely.
- Yeah. - Absolutely, the moment I get off the plane until the moment I'm gone, there's adrenaline. I think that's what I'm hooked on. - Interesting. - But I get adrenaline knowing that this is a place almost nobody goes to, no Westerners go to And the fact that I can document it and post a video that will probably get millions of views is really special, that I can be a messenger for that part of the world. - [Mark] Right.
- I'm sure you feel that too. - Yeah, but, dude, I'm not going to Mogadishu. (Mark laughing) - Lemme know if you wanna go. I can connect you. - You can hook me up? You can hook me up? - What's the most dangerous place that you've been or that you felt? - Oh, that's a good question.
I got really drunk and fucked up one night and went to the wrong part of Cartagena. And it was actually, I actually lucked out because... - Did you go to that Cuban bar in Cartagena where they serve mojitos? It's like a dance salsa bar, it's super cool. - I- - You don't remember. Okay. - All I know is I went to the wrong spot. And it was funny 'cause I lucked out because there was a Colombian guy there who had studied in the US.
- Okay, cool. - And so when my friend and I got out of the taxi, this guy immediately walked up to us and he was like, he was like, "What are you doing here? Are you guys American? What are you doing here?" And I was like, "Yeah." And he's like, "You can't be here." - Oh, god. - You have to go. And I was like, "No man, like it's cool. I speak Spanish."
I was drunk as fuck. And I was like, "It's cool. I speak Spanish." And he's like, "No, no, no, you- - You have to go. - Don't understand. Like this part of town, you cannot be here at night. - Wow, was it like 02:00 in the morning or something? - Yeah, it was 02:00 in the morning, something like that.
He put us back in a taxi, sent us back to the old town, which was the tourist part. - Yep. - And the taxi started driving outside of town. - Oh, that's my biggest fear. - Started driving the opposite way, which when you live in Latin America, you hear stories like this of like, you get dumped in some random place.
They take all your shit. - That's exactly my biggest fear. - And they potentially kill you or they just leave you out in the middle of like the Colombian jungle.
And so anyway, I started realizing what was happening. I told my friend who didn't speak Spanish, I said, this is what's happening, like get ready. I took a credit card outta my wallet and put it in the bottom of my sock, in the bottom of my shoe. - Yep. - I told my friend, I said,
"Whoever we get dumped in front of, just give 'em everything. Don't fight, don't argue, don't run away. Like just hand everything over."
Completely mentally prepared for it and then we came across a police checkpoint and the police stopped the car - Really, random? - Complete random police checkpoint. Cops stopped the car, asked the taxi where he was going. He like said some bullshit place. The cop was like, who's in the back seat? Taxi's like, "Oh, just some friends." - Wow. - And he's like, and then the cop was like, walked over and he was like- - And you told him what's up? - Yeah, and I was like, "I don't know where I'm going.
I'm American and the cop was like, told the taxi driver, "Turn around right now, go back to go back to town- - That's crazy. (chuckles) - Yeah, dude, but I don't wanna do that again. (Mark laughing) (Drew laughing) - You don't get adrenaline thinking about that story? - Dude, I'm like, I'm getting, fuck, my hands are getting sweaty just telling that story.
- That's a great story. - Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, one thing that I kinda mentally did, and I'd actually be curious to hear if you did the same thing is when I decided I was gonna live in Latin America long term, and especially once I married a Brazilian, like, you know, I'm probably gonna spend at least a few weeks in Brazil for the rest of my life, every year for the rest of my life. I really just came to peace with it of like, it's inevitable.
- Yep. - I'm gonna get robbed or mugged or pick-pocketed at some point, probably multiple times. Every single Brazilian friend I have has been robbed.
Some in more horrifying circumstances than others. So I really just made peace with it of like just setting the expectation of like, this is going to happen. It's kinda like a tax of making this this like, choosing to have this life. - Right. - Like,
you know, part of the tax is just, I'm gonna be robbed like once every 10 years or so. And that's fine. - It's good to set that in your mind, so when it does happen, it's not so shocking. You're not freaking out about it. - Yeah, like you can mentally prepare. I think that's important.
- For sure. - I think that's something that I do is like, if I get thrown behind bars or if something happens, like I know that that's a possibility. Especially in Western China, I know that could happen. - Yeah. - And I'd like to think I'd get outta prison, but maybe there, I might not.
I was almost the next Britney Griner. Remember when she was held in Russia? So I was detained on the border of Russia and North Korea, like weeks before Russia attacked Ukraine, like two weeks before. And there was already talk about it happening and they loved to have, I was an American on the border, and they held me for three hours.
They'd stripped me of my phone and my friends had to be outside and they asked me every question I've ever been asked. And if they wanted to, they could've kept me. And then the war broke out right then. So then I would've been a political pawn that Britney Griner was, - Wow. - It was like this close.
- I've got a series, I wanna play a quick game of Overrated Underrated. - Okay. - And this is, lemme set the context for this. So I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna give you a list of things. This is, tell me if they're overrated or underrated in terms of the quality of life for like an average citizen in the country.
So the first one is government, overrated or underrated? - Overrated. - Overrated. Why? - I guess, I might change my answer. (group chuckling) - I feel like it's probably properly rated at the extremes and then overrated for everybody else. Like if you're in North Korea, obviously the government is like the most influential thing or. - You need government to have rules and laws, otherwise everything would be anarchy.
Like there would be nothing. There would be nothing. So it's a tricky one. - Like the average person in Iran or the average person in... - They hate their governments, but, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, like Afghanistan or Korea or...
- Right. - Australia. Like how much influence does the government actually have on their day-to-day life? - Like for women, they have to wear hijabs, so, but I think that's changing now with the whole Mahsa Amini thing. But there are like certain rules that they have to do, but like, they all badmouth the government, and they wish it wasn't the case. But that being said, they still have to follow a certain standard in a place like Iran. So I think the government's just there and it's something they don't wanna think about, but it's rules that they have to follow.
But I think that they'd much rather, like Iranians are not religious. I think like I was there on Ramadan, I think 80%, 8-0, do not fast. - Wow.
- Isn't that crazy? - Yeah. - Even though all the restaurants are closed, you know, the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is the official name of the government, they will make it feel like it's super religious and close all the restaurants until nighttime. But the people, they're just eating, you know, undercover. So that's one example of like, yeah, the government's there and present. But like, I'm trying to think like...
- But that would be kinda be an argument of that it's overrated, right? - It would be an argument it's over, that's why, but I said overrated, but then I thought about other countries and I was like, underrated, so it's like this weird, it just depends on what country you're in. - Yeah. - It's really tough. Like in Africa, like there's a lot of bribery and stuff and that's a whole different conversation.
But I paid a lot of bribes just to cross land borders for no reason. - Yeah. - It's just like, in order for you to get from Sierra Leone to Liberia, in order to cross that border, you need to pay $300.
And so I paid $300 and that's to a policeman with a gun, and that's to the policeman. - And it's probably has nothing to do with the government. - It has nothing to do, no.
- It's just he happens to be stationed at the border. (laughing) - Yes. Yes, correct. So maybe that's not related to the conversation, 'cause it's not the government. - [Mark] Yeah.
- So the government maybe doesn't have as much authority in those places. - This is a hard question. - It's a really hard question, 'cause I keep thinking of one country and then I'm switching my answer to think of another country. And I was just in Japan two months ago.
That country just works. Everything works in Japan and Korea. East Asia, Taiwan, I love Taiwan. Things work so well there. There's like no poverty. Everyone seems to be having a good lifestyle. Good jobs. - It's clean. Yeah. - It's clean. It's safe.
Everyone looks after each other, like... - But is that the government? I would argue, so... - Or the culture of the people, yeah.
- So like, one of the next ones I was gonna ask is culture. I personally think culture's vastly underrated. - Yeah. - 'Cause I would say East Asia, it's cultural-generic mostly. - I agree, it's built into the culture to be respectful, to take care of your elders, to look after each other. I think in the US, not to pick on the US, but we're not that family-oriented as a culture.
And when we're 18, we get the fuck out of our house. In other cultures, that does not happen. They like will live at home, almost most of the rest of the world, they'll live at home and like be really close to their family and maybe when they get married, they'll go live off. But I feel like that's missing here. I wish that people were more closely, you know, I'm really close to my parents.
They're here now in LA. I really love spending time with them. And anytime I get the chance to share a meal or take them on a trip, I do it. But, yeah, do you agree with that? - It's funny, I think that cuts both ways.
So I agree with you, there is something nice about how much emphasis is put on family in a lot of cultures. Particularly like Latin cultures. - [Drew] Yes.
- Asian culture. - Asian culture. - At the same time, I have seen so many people who, so much enabling of just, I'm gonna sound like, god, I'm gonna sound like such an American. (chuckling) - You are American, so you're sounding- - I know, here, get ready for it, everybody.
Here comes the American in me. I've seen a lot of enabling, like when I've lived in those countries and lived in those cultures, I've seen a lot of enabling of what would otherwise be like a really like self-actualized person. It's like, well, mom and dad are always gonna take care of 'em, so they just stay at home till they're like 35 and they never really like, you know, try to like, try hard at their job and they don't like don't really- - That does exist. - Yeah, and so it kind of like, it creates complacency. And it's, you know, I look at the way I grew up and, lemme just say, I've gone both ways on that. Like when I first lived in Latin America, I was like, wow, it's so great.
They put like such an emphasis on family. And then like as the years went on, I was like, well, wait a second. Maybe the fact that like nobody works very hard, like has something to do with the fact that like mom and dad are gonna fit the bill for everything even when you're like 40 years old. - So why is that a bad thing though for them? - Is it? Yeah, I don't know. - Maybe they'd be thrilled to have that life.
I just think it comes back to like the US is very innovative and entrepreneurial because of these things. - Yes. - When I was 18, I moved to Wisconsin. I didn't know anyone and I just figured out how to do my own laundry and be, but like at an 18-year-old.
- Totally. - And that helped guide me to live this lifestyle that I live now because of that. - Absolutely. - So. - I agree, I mean, it's, you get very much into kind of this like subjective, what is a good value and what's a bad value. Everything's just a trade off. And when you look at, say, loneliness data or mental health data, these countries that have like really strong emphasis on family, their data's not nearly as bad as ours is.
You know, part of our mental health crisis is that we are so atomized and independent and alone and isolated from each other all the time. We're overworked, overstressed. - And that's not a good thing. - That's not a good thing.
So it's a trade off. Like it's like pick your poison, whereas, you know, some of these other countries, like there's a lot of people live in abusive dynamics. There's like fucked up family dynamics. There's all sorts of stuff that happens.
So I don't know, like it's really complicated- - It's not like there's an answer. Like this is better, this is not better. It's just cool to analyze it from a global perspective and think about these things, you know? - Well, Mark, you have this idea that the best, and the best thing about a place is usually also the worst thing about a place too. I think you would agree with that too. - This is my pet theory is that, yeah, the best thing about a country is also usually the worst thing. So like the best thing about the US is if you wanna work hard and make money, you can do it here.
- Right. - It's the best place to do it. The worst thing about the US is everything revolves around working hard and making money, you know? - [Drew] That's true. - The best thing about Brazil is it's, the people are just fun loving, you know, best parties, beaches, barbecues, everything. Worst thing about Brazil is everybody just wants to party, (chuckling) go to the beach, have a barbecue. - Interesting.
- Darn, yeah. - That's a good point. I never thought about it like that. But you can kinda run through it with everything, you know, whether it's Japan or China or India. Like I think what it is is that it tends to be that, you know, the most extreme traits about a culture tend to define both its advantages and disadvantages. - Sure. That's interesting, man.
- Yeah. What about war? - Yeah, war hit me some daggers here, that's... (Mark laughing) I mean, it's underrated if you live in the country that the war is happening in. - Yeah. - Like if you live
in Ukraine, I mean, that's, I'm trying to go back to Ukraine in this summer if I can. But if you live in a country that war, like in the US, we don't have war on the ground in the US. - Yeah.
- That's a big deal. If you live in Ukraine, you are worried that your buildings are gonna be destroyed right now. But in the US, we never have to worry.
And 9/11 happened, but since then, I dunno, you can fact check me, but it's not like we're, there's big attacks happening in the US often. There's shootings, that's something different. But we're talking about
2024-07-08 04:44
