Welcome Remarks & Special Dialogue with Bill Gates

[Music] hello i'm dan jurgen and i want to welcome you to a special sarah week 2021 dialogue with bill gates we'll be in conversation about his new book which i'm holding up right here how to avoid a climate disaster uh bill it's been several years since you spoke at sarah week that was live now we're virtual i want to welcome you and welcome back and glad to have this chance to talk with you today ah thanks i always look forward to talking to you so so uh i thought uh there's a lot to talk about and uh i was thinking that when you last spoke at sarah week climate was part of the discussion but not as central as it is today uh certainly uh you bring a perspective as a philanthropist as a tech entrepreneur but in the last few years how has your thinking evolved to the point where you wanted to write a book about climate disaster and how to avoid it yeah i came to climate kind of an unusual way which is the the work of the gates foundation had me in africa quite a bit and seen that actually population was going up faster than uh electricity supply uh and you know worried okay how could we get these economies uh going which certainly wouldn't would include getting electricity and i also started to read about how climate change would make uh the weather for these farmers who are very poor so much worse that uh their crop output and the number of crop failures would be a lot larger and our foundation does a lot with seeds but understanding that headwind was important and so i was lucky enough that some professors a number of experts educated me and that led to my doing a ted talk in 2010 i have two famous ted talks the 2010 on climate and then the 2015 which was saying we're not ready for the the next pandemic the climate the pandemic is is the more popular those two but anyway i still didn't see even after that ted talk uh a movement that was strong enough to create the political will uh i was part of the paris talks an activity called mission innovation where governments committed to double the r d budget and i committed to do breakthrough ventures but it's only in the last few years that the political will and the adoption of this zero by 2050 goal has been enough that the activists you know may get governments to to execute on a plan but i wasn't seeing a plan i was seeing only short-term metrics too much focus on the easy parts of reducing emissions like passenger cars and parts of electricity generation so i thought hey i think about innovation pipelines i should make sure people know the breadth of this and how hard zero is and you know hopefully that's the seed of a plan including some new metrics like the green premium right so um the viewpoint you brought as a philanthropist and as an entrepreneur and a visionary in technology how has that given you a particular view you've described it from you know being on the farms in kenya and so forth but what is distinctive about your view well i see the uh negative effects you know africa for example uh it's got population growth it's got very limited governance and when you throw in uh climate change on top of that you know that creates instability which creates war and migration and so uh you know making sure people are understand the urgency of mitigation and uh that they're willing to invest in these adaptation things that's you know because of my foundation work uh i think that way i've also got you know my experience with innovation which in other sectors and software and in vaccines to save children's lives uh things have gone very well as we've been able to organize smart people and create the right incentives so you know uh people like smile remind us this is going to be harder than any other domain uh that i've ever worked in and so i have to be you know aware that um you know i'm i'm new to thinking about you know steel and cement and grids and those things uh but i've tried to map my understanding of of innovation into the policy recommendations right so uh speaking of things that are hard uh i at least find writing books is hard and one of the things that strikes me about your book that i wanted to ask you about a lot of it is actually about engineering about technology but it's quite striking to me it's very accessible and it's very conversational uh how did you do it i uh i've been in so many conversations since 2005 when people say to me hey what is this and being succinct on this topic uh is very hard you know the article writers will put in something like this is equivalent to getting rid of ten thousand cars on the road or twenty thousand households they never give you enough information to really say okay as a percentage of the problem how big is that uh likewise you know they tend to romance that hey solar panels are cheap as though that alone would solve the problem or they'll write about uh unit reductions like oh let's travel less miles of mass transit or let's eat a little less meat as though that somehow is a path to zero or they'll talk about divestment or you know green finance and so to try and center it on the okay where's this stuff coming from uh over time i've gotten you know a bit more succinct in those conversations people give me feedback when i use too much terminology uh you know if i tell them to go read 20 books that doesn't always uh succeed uh so i you know i'm i try to summarize uh and a little bit share my journey uh that you know these are topics that uh i started out knowing very little about well it is interesting in reading the book it really was your voice it was like you were talking about it rather than writing an abstruse academic book and from my experience it's not easy to do that so congratulations on the book and on doing that you quoted smeal you just said it's hard and you have a line in the book you said actually this will be hard and you are you're pretty firm saying that some of the goals for 2030 are just unrealistic but it's possible by 2050 but as you say it will be hard uh tell us a little bit about what you're doing in breakthrough energy and the technologies you talk about in the book what what is what do you think are the most important things to focus on that will do more than just have a smidgen effect yeah so in the history of the industrial economy uh things have never changed as fast as we're asking them to change i mean it is so radical only an entire generation committed to making this a political priority in at least all the rich countries uh for all of those 30 years gives us a chance and you know for example just take electricity because we'll stop using gasoline as an energy source or natural gas to heat buildings or you know natural gas many industrial processes the electric grid has to get three times as big at the same time it has to stay reliable using mostly intermittent sources and people don't want the price to go up so you know that makes all the electrification we've done you know only a small subset of what uh we're asking them to do uh during this this 30-year period and you know that's only one area of emission although it's fairly central because it becomes uh what you switch to to to get energy for uh many many applications the you know innovation pipeline you know starts with basic r d then uh you want you know entrepreneurs to uh develop their ideas uh then you need venture money uh and then you need somebody who's gonna buy these green products even if they cost a little bit more and so when i talk about breakthrough energy it's got uh i'm doing my best to help out in each one of those areas uh you know i put over 2 billion into various companies uh some of which uh like beyond or quantum scape you know seem to be doing well many of which uh went bankrupt long ago uh you know some like terrapower which is nuclear fission uh are extremely high risk but uh you know they we just got a big award from the the us government to build the demo plant and so you know it's quite a varied set of activities uh but you know really looking at some of the those super hard categories like cement steel aviation fuel uh and what we can do there so breakthrough energy is is is focused on the whole innovation chain from discovery through getting to the marketplace yeah we can bring up that slide and it shows uh you know of course for the basic r d which is at the far left there uh that's government money mostly uh i do a little bit of that where there's some projects missing but then you have fellows which is just stunning people who don't aren't ready to start a company ventures which is the most mature uh that got going in 2015 and now this new idea of buying green products called catalyst and so that you know that we're trying to replicate what happened with solar panels where germany and japan created demand and as the volume went up the price went down we need that uh in all the categories um and so those are kind of a model uh that that we could follow so what is catalyst trying to do that part of it it's it's the bind side so if somebody says hey i can make cement instead of at a uh 100 price premium i can make it a 50 price premium you know that company has a zero-sized market and so you have to have through policy and funding the willingness to buy down that premium and so catalyst is the demand side for green innovation to complement the supply side which those other activities are and so catalyst will fund green hydrogen projects it'll fund direct air capture projects it'll fund green aviation fuel it starts out with a few billion dollars but literally will go to governments companies and eventually consumers and saying hey you care about climate uh and you're responsible for some emissions by you know paying into this we can particularly through catalytic investments offset all of the emissions that that you're responsible for so uh if we you mentioned a few technologies uh let's talk about i'd like to ask you about a few of them just your take on it because a lot of the book is about technologies it seems to me that it's really hard to achieve the goals without carbon capture and you certainly are putting some money and effort into that tell us where that stands and how you see it today right so you can do carbon capture the point source where the flu might be 15 co2 uh but often mixed in with a lot of other uh difficult things um and more so in a coal plant than say natural gas plant uh and there are people like lonzo who are doing that for uh some steel processes which is is pretty interesting but direct air captures where you go anywhere and the wind sort of blows the air through and some process uh zeolites for solid like climb work stars or a liquid capture product process like carbon engineering there's some other wild ideas about electrical properties that uh are very early stage uh you know today when i want to offset my footprint you know i pay over six hundred dollars a ton to climb works and they literally really do do the direct air capture and put it into mineral formations where it will stay uh for hundreds of thousands of years so it's real capture it's not the the pretend uh approach there but that's very expensive you know if you say 51 billion tons a year times 600 dollars uh you know 30 trillion a year is not uh particularly affordable so we need to get that director capture down to at least a hundred dollars and if possible below that and no one knows if it can get you know even to a hundred carbon engineering on paper uh they have a great partnership uh with occidental and you know hope to work with others uh on their process uh you know we need to try everything because you're right it's sort of the generic thing if you can't get rid of the emissions in uh by changing the process then you have to do it the indirect way and that's where i compute these green premiums i assume that we get to 100 a ton for capture to compute yeah yeah let me come back to the green premiums a second i want to stay with a little bit on the technology just direct air tech direct air capture did that come to you or did you go to it and when you first heard about it what was your first reaction well the two professors who i was lucky enough to enlist uh to do these six half-day uh sessions per year where they bring in other experts including david keith uh and ken caldera and david is the founder of carbon engineering and so it's natural for him to ask me uh to help uh invest in that he's gotten other investors and governments and now uh you know the the work with occidental but uh you know it it seemed wild to me but you know i i trust uh that you know he's going to apply great engineering to the problem right so in terms of uh breakthroughs what are you most excited about i mean because you talk about a lot in the book what what exciting yeah today you know if you look at all the sources you probably need something like a dozen breakthroughs uh so it's not like you know the vaccine will bring the pandemic to an end you know so there you've got this one magic tool uh that that does the job i wish it was that straightforward you know there are a few things like if you can get super cheap green hydrogen then that is uh for a lot of the industrial processes like making fertilizer or you know direct reduction of steel uh that is a huge deal but uh you can compute to be you know at break even for steel making that hydrogen would have to be mind-blowingly cheap and you know there's a minimum amount of energy used whether you start with water or ch4 uh and you know you're not going to get below that so it's exciting but you know it might not emerge nuclear fission that i'm a big funder of hey actually of all the things there's the least scientific invention required that there's cost and safety which is very engineering oriented and there's a lot of public skepticism uh but when i meet with that team uh you know we won this big demonstration project from the us government i you know i get very enthused it's the kind of stuff i like because the smart people have modeled it digitally and uh you know they they really believe in what they're doing does it frustrate you on nuclear when people say oh nuclear is dead finished and then you have these guys who are really motivated and you know and you're behind it yeah i mean the it is frustrating that people think oh nuclear doesn't that kill a lot of people uh whereas of course per unit of energy generated even the current third generation plants you know are safer than natural gas or coal particularly if you look at uh particulate effects on health and so you know i think the current generators get about generation gets a bad wrap now my work is about a complete from scratch design where there's no high pressure on the reactor there's no buttons you ever need to push uh it's just physics that you know the heat pool never wants to move the radioactive material away from the the site of the the reactor so yes uh you know people's understanding about radiation and the history uh that one even if we solve the engineering uh you know explaining why they should love it will be very hard but that's when now you're going to do a demonstration project is that what the funding is for that's right so we had a strategy where we had a joint venture in china and the trump administration told us to shut that down but then the u.s congress created the advanced reactor demonstration project which we won the biggest four billion uh five-year project that i agreed i'd guarantee 50 of the financing uh private uh public partnership and so now over the next five years we'll cite that this year and you know show and the economics will be a big part i mean the reason nuclear's failing in the us is not because of the public acceptance part it's just too expensive you know that the first generation was cheap but then they kept adding things and you know the the regulations are are complicated so we have to go back and start over uh make something that's way smaller way less cement the nuclear island is tiny uh to achieve those goals and also make it so your your heat pool lets you do the generation during the times when the sun isn't shining and the wind's not blowing so you're not trying to directly compete with those those periods of time right now i know that over the last several years you've also been involved and looked at biofuels green biofuels and so forth kind of what you're thinking about that state obviously uh very important if somebody's running an airline or wants to be an airline passenger yeah so i uh am the biggest customer of aviation biofuels in the country is part of my uh offset plan which is a total of over seven million a year and right now it costs about three times as much and even getting the infrastructure into the seattle area airports was tricky but you know now that's that's been organized uh we're gonna need problem assuming hydrogen doesn't work in the plane which you know there's a few wild-eyed people working on that uh it will be either electrofuels or biofuels and right now uh what i'm buying are biofuels and it'll be interesting to see how we can scale that up and can you get that that green premium down uh from 300 percent which you know for the aviation industry their ticket prices would have to be a lot higher yeah well now you've mentioned green premium two or three times it's one of the key concepts i think that you've developed and it's one of the key concepts that runs throughout the book to help people think about this realistically as opposed to just sort of imagining that you you have a magic wand so tell us what this concept of green premium is and how it's evolved for you and how you use it yeah so the extra cost you pay to buy something that has no emissions above the normal cost that's the green premium and it varies a lot uh between various products you know for electric cars today uh it's pretty small in fact we have a slide that'll just show contrast these two examples uh you know i compared this chevrolet malibu which is you know normal gasoline to a chevrolet bolt and there's some upfront cost a little savings you know because the electricity is cheaper in the gasoline the maintenance is a little less now you give up some range uh you know there aren't as many charge points as they are but it's it's a modest green premium and we can see now with the volume and the various incentives that green premium over the next 10 to 15 years probably will get to zero which is you know mind blowing then you know you're basically done and that means the government you know can say no more gasoline cars and people don't complain somebody like the ceo of gm you know can say okay in 2035 mary barra says she's making just electric cars so that's the most mature category as evidenced by the the modest green premium uh cement by contrast uh you'll see it's almost double the price and the way i consider the green premium is i think okay what if we just what would it cost to just change everything and pay the green premium uh and and so you can imagine a phone call in 2050 where you're talking to say india and saying hey you want to build more buildings you want to have lights at night and air conditioning please buy it the greenway and if that green premium uh over time is over a trillion dollars you know india's gonna say no we're uh we've done very little in emissions these are basic needs either you send us the subsidies uh which it's not realistic that a trillion dollars would go that way uh or else they'll just do it the normal way and so the us and the other rich countries we owe more to the world than just brute force reducing our emissions by you know paying high green premiums we have to innovate because we have you know most of the world's innovation power we have to innovate on behalf of the entire world and in my view if we get the green premium in aggregate which is over 5 trillion down by 95 percent then uh the idea of subsidizing you know that would be 250 billion a year that becomes practical and so the green premium to me is the metric that says are you on your way to success in 2050 and this is a concept that you really came up with as a guide for your own thinking right in terms of yeah i'm i'm i'm sure if you if you dug around in the literature it must exist somewhere but i've never seen it done this way and so i often say to people hey you know what what do you think it costs to make green cement and they're like what why why is he saying that but unless you can order this and look at those magnitudes in a sense you you aren't being guided about what the priorities are right now i heard you i think say five trillion dollars there you went very quickly over the five trillion what is that five trillion dollars about what what what five years exactly so we have 51 billion tons of emissions co2 equivalents and the i make the assumption that some direct air capture thing will get down uh to 100 it's not there today otherwise i'd be buying that instead but i think over the next decade that's likely if you if you improve that it reduces the green premium but also as you uh heat homes little electric heat pumps instead of natural gas as you buy more like cars lots of things bring that down uh because you're using different approaches but today it's it's 100 times uh 51 billion uh so 5 trillion that's how you get there so uh you've been doing this now for several years as you mentioned before not everything succeeds a hundred percent uh what are your lessons that you've taken away from what works what doesn't work or are there any lessons well i'm definitely afraid that the large capital investment and the plans required uh you know require constantly through the 30 years and so unless we get this to be somewhat of a bipartisan issue you know i worry a lot about that the other issue that i think people are a little uh over simplify is maintaining reliability you know you can have a cold front over the midwest for a long period of time and that shuts down uh wind and solar and people still expect electricity electricity is is valuable only really valuable when it's totally reliable and you know factories are built to run 24 hours a day hospitals uh the heating in a in a cold period so um we have an open source model which we call breakthrough energy science where we put in uh all of the generation and transmission and so people can do models what if and look at okay do we need more transmission what type of storage would work uh you know if nuclear is allowed how does that help out this equation uh you know growing that electric network and maintaining that reliability i think is vastly underestimated and we need to draw in lots of people looking at the same using the same model so that they can't you know exaggerate the benefits of of different things uh and even the utilities and the transmission experts we all need to get you know using this model and doing our what if work right and of course if transportation moves to electricity reliability becomes even more important for everything so is breakthrough energy are you doing things on batteries on storage yes so uh actually of the 40 companies that are on the first breakthrough energy ventures fund uh storage was one that uh we found a lot you know like we have malta which is a heat store uh spun out of google x with the a great ceo uh we have form energy which is an amazing group where we took two battery innovators and uh one on the east coast one on the west and put them together and they're taking a very different approach uh to a battery uh we've got a thing called quid net where they actually they take water and they just pressurize it down into the earth uh and then it that pressure can come back up and so it's almost like a hydra store but it works in many locations you don't have to have a hill and a reservoir you just do it underground it seems wild that the turnaround could be you know 65 but you know they're out there drilling holes and uh you know seeing if if that can work so there's some great stuff in storage but the the need for storage you know like for tokyo during a typhoon or for the u.s when the midwest is is shut down this is very daunting we may not get there which is why having you know nuclear as a green non-weather dependent source at about the 25 percent level may be necessary but we need to pursue you know miracle storage and nuclear in parallel so uh you've talked about electricity and batteries how do you see the electric power industry adapting and changing well they should be very excited i mean there's all these industries where people are saying hey we don't need your oil or uh you know natural gas and that i mean that creates huge problems even political problems but the utilities who you know are pretty staid you know should be going what what you know power demand in the us has been flat and you're telling me it could be three times bigger and i get to build all these grids and i get capital returns on those grids i mean these guys should be going hallelujah uh because in terms of moving green energy electricity is is you know kind of the the ultimate solution is to electrify and then in parallel uh zero out the emissions from generation uh but you know the utility commissions you know aren't incentive to think long term so we need to help them uh the whole way that transmission gets permitted you know it's basically you know you get to get 10 yeses and uh that takes forever so you know even things that are clear like you know canada u.s transmission or the oklahoma tennessee transmission those projects generally you know blow up and yet this model will show us that man we need a lot more transmission right well what i was at the edison electric uh institute con co convention i was really struck by the degree to which uh electric utility uh ceos and senior executives are very much with you at the the growth potential here and obviously electricity will be more and more central to everything running there's another industry oil and gas you did mention that uh any thoughts on how that industry uh adapts to uh the changes that are ahead well there's a lot of interesting stuff about green hydrogen you know where you take morphic rocks and you may be able to you know mine for it or do uh generation there you know the pipelines that we got for natural gas you know can you put a sleeve in and use those to move clean hydrogen around uh you know green hydrogen may need to play a very gigantic role and a lot of the skill sets involved there are from the oil and gas industry sequestering carbon uh taking nuclear waste and burying it you know ridiculously deep so that people know that for millions of years you don't have to worry about it way deeper than yucca mountain so-called deborah hole there are skill sets uh that those companies can bring uh you know can they help us with biofuels can they help us with electric fuels uh you know some really are saying okay this next 30 years we're going to have to be radically different uh and are upping their r d budgets and getting involved even in some of the the electricity generation side projects but you know green hydrogen is more in their their skill sets so some of them uh should get involved in these things um you know we we need that you know ability to do complex engineering well when i read your book one of the things that really struck me is the implicit in that is you do need organizations engineering organizations who can work at scale and uh execute complex projects and uh you're kind of describing some of those companies that have those capabilities earlier in the conversation you mentioned the impact of your work in africa and in poverty around the world and i think you have that whole section in the book about the farm in kenya visiting it but of course uh in the developing world people have other issues like indoor air pollution uh cooking with waste products and so forth um how different do you think the climate agenda is for developing countries who have these other problems to address that we don't have to worry about in oecd countries well some of the countries near the equator of course solar you know should work fantastically for them but you know will people rely on energy generated outside of their national boundaries you know the most undertapped hydro resources in the world by far in africa but you know who's going to fund the transmission and make sure that's reliable so there were some real question marks there are parts of africa where wind and geothermal work very well primarily in in east africa uh and of course the adaptation agenda is most acute uh for these farmers you know who are working outdoors and the summers near the equator they're going to have days that you can't go out at all that that between the humidity and the the temperature sweating doesn't cool you down so you you can't do that kind of work and so it's they have to deal with adaptation you know we'll help them with some new seeds and uh you know the very poorest countries will need to be subsidized uh to deal with many of these problems not the middle income you know not the india's and uh vietnam's indonesia countries at that level but you know sub-saharan africa uh the percentage of the pop world population there are small enough uh that we can help them both with new energy generation and with the adjustment uh to the the negative impacts of climate particularly through things like seed innovation right so it may seem strange to you in my book the new map which about energy and geopolitics i quote your other ted talk the one you did on covet and i think i need to take a few minutes to ask you because you've been so much at the forefront of how to address the pandemic and um you know you read or you watch your talk from 2015 and it's so prescient in a sense sad in terms of what's happened profoundly sad what's happened since then i just have to ask you on covet i know it's not our main topic but what went wrong and what are the lessons and you've been so engaged in it just tell us your thinking well the gates foundation specializes in infectious disease and vaccines and so that's how i had the an understanding to say that a respiratory disease given the amount of international travel you know could be super bad like the spanish flu just over 100 years ago and the billions that it would have required to be ready to be able to get the commercial vendors like quest and labcorp testing quickly to make sure people were coming in from china and other locations were tested so that you didn't get community spread we saw that countries like australia new zealand south korea uh just by using the first 60 days properly uh which the u.s sadly did not even though we have more pcr machines and you know the cdc is the most respected group of epidemiologists so we'll do a lot of post-mortems we didn't do enough before the pandemic hit and then we really messed up when the pandemic hit now if it had been 10 years ago you know we couldn't have used the internet to do our jobs like this mrna wouldn't have been there so it would have been far worse if it hit 10 years from now mrna would be cheap scalable thermostable and so for the next pandemic we're going to have diagnostic stuff that's 20 times better we're going to have broad spectrum antivirals we'll have broad-spectrum vaccines so you know for tens of billions you will buy the insurance policy uh to avoid that next pandemic now you know the this is a lesson that government and we count on government to think ahead uh you know for earthquakes and wars and fires uh for the pandemic they didn't and as yet for climate which is much worse it'll be killing over five times as many people per year by the end of the century and you know you won't it'll take decades to get back and the natural ecosystems will never come back this one's far worse but it just sadly it creeps up on you uh and you know there aren't as many dead bodies and rich countries in the near term that galvanize uh big action uh but i do think it reminds people wow i need government to to plan ahead right so you i'll come back to the in just a moment but you've been continued to be engaged on the vaccine pandemic reactions i mean you've been in the middle of this yeah so we very quickly funded the high volume vaccine manufacturers who are in india uh you know serum makes five times as many vaccines as any other country so we said for the first time these in vaccines that are invented elsewhere are going to be put very quickly into these big factories now sadly mrna is unconventional enough uh that those factories don't work but they so the vaccines one and two fives or moderna couldn't be done that way they're it's too expensive and too different the next three astrazeneca johnson and john cena novavax will be made in these gigantic factories and that's just now ramping up uh the relative role of astrazeneca because of south african studies that we funded uh is questioned against certain of the variants so it's very complicated and every country is scrambling to get in front in line but the answer is capacity and you know that's why uh you know we've got these big factories coming that if we do it well the difference between the rich world and the developing world will be about six months which will mean that pandemic we're not generating more variants you know we're not reinfecting the rich countries we get the economy back on on track right so let me uh end with of course the book how to avoid it um i don't know if you ever sometimes in the middle of writing a book you ask why am i writing a book what why did you write this book yeah i initially was going to come out in last spring and then i realized during the pandemic where my voice should be about you know vaccines and monoclonal antibodies and cooperation uh including just wearing masks that it would have been a terrible time this year it feels like a good time uh because the byte administration is programming a lot of money the european recovery fund the the glasgow event the cop 26 which was also delayed so getting this framework of not just the near-term goals which i i think are important but also that the long-term metrics i think it is timely uh you know interest levels are high in this uh and it does force you to think through can you you know explain something in a succinct way many topics it it forces your thinking to try and write about it uh and you know so i actually enjoyed the process uh quite a bit and you know hopefully it it does improve the the plan and the quality of the debate so let me ask you one last question here for just a quick answer from you to borrow a title from a book you know uh what's the road ahead well it's a lot of innovation uh hopefully some of it that surprises us you know the artificial meat stuff's gone better than i expected but not you know still has to scale up in a big way uh it's you know to have hundreds and hundreds of great companies that are pursuing you know the the things that will will improve these metrics and uh hopefully there's a a hopeful attitude that gets more people to join in hopefully you know there's less deniers or less people who think it's easy to solve uh you know the dialogue about the industrial shifts and job shifts you know that hopefully uh is a richer discussion than uh it often is because that could block the progress if they don't if different regions or job categories feel like uh they're not being respected or considered in this uh you know it's a lot of it's in the political realm uh which you know of course that's often uh un unpredictable uh but the science you know it's it's amazing i love you know talking to the the innovators uh and hopefully that's that's where the surprises come from well bill in the book uh what comes through both is the realism and also the excitement and enthusiasm congratulations on the new book and thank you very much for joining us at seroweek 2021.

oh thank you it was a lot of fun to talk about it thank you you

2021-04-09 00:59

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