RTX 4060 Ti Rumors, Angry PC Gamers & More | The Full Nerd ep. 256

RTX 4060 Ti Rumors, Angry PC Gamers & More | The Full Nerd ep. 256

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Loading, loading. So we're not going about the fight now. I'll keep that tab open. All right, Looks like we're good.

Hello, everyone. So the secret, and somebody taught me this last week to get rid of this stupid ass YouTube update. I don't know what the hell. Oh, yeah, I still don't have that. No, no, no.

Check this out. You don't have it? No, I've never seen one anyway. Shish. Well, I'm running Windows 11, so I'm sure that's just the level. Well, that is bizarre. Why am I. Why am I? Determination.

You're guinea pig. And another what you get for being an influencer, Gordon. So you. So the way to get rid of is you click refresh, and then it's like, Oh, yeah, that shit sucks.

We're going to go back to the way, it goes back to see. Why does it even start that way? Yeah. Yeah, that's weird.

So the good thing is nobody at YouTube is even paying attention to us because we can talk all kinds of crap we want. Like, what the hell are you doing over there, man? That's weird. But no, they don't. Yeah. Yeah.

Welcome. Hello. Tuesday. We're here Tuesday. Tuesday.

10:30 a.m. Pacific. And not too bad. Just. Just another... Just nine minute delay. It's just the usual. Just the usual. Oh, we got. We got a full house here today. Yay!

Yay! Somebody's saying feedback loop. We're having feedback loop. Oh, echo, echo. There's an echo. Echo, echo, echo. No, All the audio echo off we are.

What Echo Zimmer, Are we still reporting? Audio is good, huh? One, one, three, four. Bread's right, but that's only one. Only one person is reporting the echo. No. So many saying no echo.

You might have heard talking to the people. You may have two streams open. So Jasso channel. Okay, so we're. We're good. We're good.

We are good. I'm wearing a 2023 playoff shirt, by the way. Hey, congratulations on three and one. Hey, you know what? We've been here before can happen. It can happen. We have thunder CDs, Thunder with Westbrook.

Get dug ourselves out of the hole. It can happen. But you know, that's long time ago. Hey. Well, what? I'm not going to you know what now you don't want to be I'll I'll bring it up later. When you talk about the angry PC gamers. But you don't want to be that kind of fan board fan. Well, you don't want to just you know, because the whole idea is to be a fan.

I'm not a fan. So to be the disloyal fan that is just bipolar, that immediately goes from like top of the world to like the worst. You're in hell.

Kind of like, it's ridiculous. Don't, don't, don't do that. Take it for what it is. It's really hard to repeat. So whatever. Okay. Basketball talk.

We we got it in. We know it. No, now we're just it's just about wrong because I have the shirt. I've never had a current year shirt. I got this. So my secret is because I have all these warrior shirts, I think people think like, Oh, well, Gordon must be rich.

He's going to these playoff games, final shirts. I never been one for you. You get last year's shirt from the Goodwill? Yeah, I go to the Goodwill. I go.

I literally go to the Goodwill. And then you get them and then the the the fans. They are this kind of tells you about the fan base is they take the shirts as like, oh, we didn't win. So they like recycle them.

And then when they the year they lost to the Raptors they're like 15 of the shirts like this is like, oh, these are those kind of fans. So this one I got from my niece who works for the Warriors, so it's an actual shirt. So I did not get it from the family discount. Family discount. I actually did not get the from the Goodwill store $5 and $5 thing, like $3. So I was looking to buy some Celtics playoff tickets.

I don't want to get too far into this, but the nosebleed seats are like $290. So I'll be watching that from home. Yeah. No, I mean, why I know. Yeah, that. Anyway, so I just had to bring it up because it's cool to actually finally have an actual and believe me, if we're out of it, this week, you know, I don't wear them anymore. But that's you got to you got to be happy for when you have it.

So we have a fun show to talk about 40, 60 tie rumors and angry PC gamers. I have phlegm in my throat, so I'm gonna try to cough. Uh, yeah, actually, we woke up this morning and Brad was like, Oh, hey, do you want to talk about the rumors? And I was like, Wait, Brad wants to talk about rumors. I'm not going to I'm going to I'm going to pass this up. I mean, so we're talking about rumors and Brad's here, so we'll look at that double dose.

Double dose. It's I didn't catch up on the rumor, but was it? It's pretty good, right? Well, that's why he's here to tell us. Right? Right. All right, Captain Brad, we're ready to kick us off. Hey. All right. Uh, yeah.

Gordon, Go ahead yourself. Sorry, I. I hope it's hopefully just like, allergies. Allergies? Yeah. Yeah, but I don't know, because, you know, I just got over COVID, so I don't know if it's just like, Oh, no, actually, your lungs, they're only like 20% capacity right now. My allergies, they did not even like, they just wanted me out of here.

It's like you been in this bed. Get out. Like, just, like, really like you're not going to like you. I have to leave. But no, I mean, you didn't want to stay there longer than you. To the rent.

No, I was pacing. Like, it's really nice because you're when you're in, you have when you're COVID positive and you're in a hospital bed, man, you're just like you're they you're like you're you get the bubonic plague because you are like, they came in or the full like gowns and everything, every time and everything would have to be like it was like generated after E.T. where everybody in the body suits and the big, like tunnels and stuff like that. In practically, practically, they don't people don't even know. Do you even know E.T.?

Did you see E.T. when you were talking to him? I see. Now I see anything like he's the youngest one here. Hey.

Yes, I've seen you just surprised. And I knew E.T. before they made that edit to hear. You heard about how he changed the edit, doesn't it? Yeah. He talked about taking the the the guns out. Didn't. Did you hear about that? I didn't even know there were any weapons in E.T..

Yeah, there were flashlights, mag lights. Are this all I know? Guns replaced. Oh, they replaced them with walkie talkies. That's what it was. There was a theatrical cut, and the officers chasing the kids with firearms. But then in the 20th anniversary edition, they replaced it with the walkie talkies.

And Spielberg recently said that was a mistake. Oh, yes, I saw that. And the place that I get my current news from, which is South Park, they actually had that. Oh, really? Yeah. They made an entire episode making fun of the walkie talkies. And just because, you know, that's that's actually a good place for current event information actually in South Park. So that's where I get all my information.

So no guns. That explains it, Internet that explains it. It's raining now. We're going to the Internet. Let's do this guy going in this episode of full 46 tie rumors and angry P.C. gamers and more. Welcome to episode 256 of the Full Nerd.

Yes, the binary villain. I'm your host, Gordon Mah Ung with Co-host Brad Chacos Hello Internet. Alaina Yee.

Hello. Adam Patrick Murray. Hi, I'm here at the table. Here at the table

because we have Willis Lai controlling the vertical and horizontal. Hello. Hello everyone. Good to see you.

Hello. We are here Tuesday, this is a full crew and it's a full house, so full nerd, nerd. Yeah, the full, full nerd. And the full list of nerds here for this special edition episode of. Well, it's not special. It's just 256.

Yeah. People are like, Hey, that's a joke. Yeah, that is a joke. I need to look up this 4060 news because I didn't know about it because somebody was asking me last night that I'm right.

Right into the topics. Okay. Yeah, right. Same piece you gave me This. This cool warrior shirt. Yeah, the 2023 playoffs.

Okay. May not be another one pass next game, but it might not you don't you? He was wondering what card should I buy because I got this ancient old 1080. Hey, it's still a good card. Any of these.

Yeah. Machine streams and the is getting a little slow and she wants something newer. So I kind of was like. I mean, I thought they were just done with the 4070. Wasn't the forge going to be at there. Was that was it.

Now there's more coming. There's more right. Yeah. That's the rumor and the expectation. Uh, so just this morning or last night, depending on what part of the world you live in, I guess, Uh, video cards.

Uh, put up a post, did you? Cards does a really great job of covering graphics card rumors. If you're not familiar with them. Most people listen, this probably are, but they usually only cover stuff that they can somewhat cite themselves or have some sort of verification for.

So they tend to be a little more a little bit more trustworthy than most rumors that you see out there. Uh, put up a post saying that the 4060 guy is indeed going to have eight gigabytes of RAM, which has been expected for a while. But according to this post in video, also heard all the recent complaints about how gigabytes ain't enough and is also planning a 46 CTI six gigabyte variant. Uh, according to video cards, the eight gig one is going to be announced and released this month and the 16 gig one will be announced this month but released in July. Yes, sir.

I have a question. Didn't they do this before of a one CPU with two different RAM configurations and the internet got mad? Not they did, but it was launched at the same time, was it? No. Sounds like this. 48. We'll talk about the A.D.D.. Yeah, the 4080 was who knows what the and the configurations of these will be.

But the 48 was a little bit different because not only was it different memory amounts and that's what it was advertised as. That was like the old terrible 1060 where the GPU was actually different. So this could be the exact same GPU just coming two months later with more memory for more money would be my assumption because you know, everyone's complaining about gigabytes not being enough for especially 1440 gaming these days, an 80 or a 4K gaming. And the rumor also says that we could see a 4068 gigabyte announcement.

Also, this may likely a copy text to also be released. Why so worried? I mean, because 4080 was you had 16 gig bigger a bigger bigger die and then you had the 4812 gig smaller die less memory. Right. So it wasn't quite the same.

And the outrage over that was so fierce that they canceled it and then renamed it and released it as the 47 and then that's okay, right? Everybody was fine with that. Well, the 47 T.I, my review called it technically hobbled and wildly overpriced. So I don't know if everyone was okay with it. But the interesting part about this is that 47 DTI has 12 gigabytes of RAM, uh, 4070 does as well. So just like last generation where the 3060 had 12 gigabytes of RAM and that upper cards never had the 4060 series cards might very well come with more memory capacity than 40, 70.

Yeah. That goes for $800. Oh wait. So yeah, I totally forgot about that. The 36 came in two versions.

Yeah. No, it was just it was just the 30. 60 was only 12 gig because Andy was really aggressive about packing more memory into Radian 6000 cards. So and video shifted course when they could as they got further down the stack. I guess I'm thinking 1063 gig.

1066 gig, right. Was the six six and three for the 1060, was it the same three gigabyte One was a very cut down GPU that ran a lot slower. So that was misleading.

It was like the 4080 would have been, I can't tell. I mean, is this a good thing? Because then it's like, Oh, sweet, you have more options. Do you? Do you only game at ten ADP and okay you could save some money get the eight gig.

Yeah. Oh, you know. Oh you want to step up. Here's 616 gig version. Yeah. I'm sure it'll be spun as that. But I mean so it's good to have more options but at the same time, I mean, well, I guess we don't know pricing.

Was there any. No, no indication of. And then the old Twitter I don't know if you mentioned it, I can't remember. But Mega-Sized is person is a is the rumor rumor person here. You believe any of this? Do you actually believe any of this? I 1,000% believe this one as the reason I don't mind covering it because if Nvidia only launches an eight gigabyte 4060 tie at the kind of prices that that is likely to launch at, it's probably going to get pretty beat up.

But with the way the memory subsystem works, if you look at the laptop versions of the GPU, you can kind of get a sense has 128 bit bus. I believe they could only have eight or 16 gigabytes. So it's going to come down to pricing is that is a there's a decent chance that the eight gigabyte model isn't super highly recommended but the 16 gigabyte one, depending on the price, could be more recommended. But the important thing to keep in mind is if this does happen and it does have 128 bit bus like this won't affect memory bandwidth at all. It's purely for if you need those high resolution textures for gaming that 1440p or 1080p if you're playing.

What was the game that had crazy last of us last of us If you played last of US, you might need 16 gigs and 80. Guess Threadripper for that. Yeah, I guess I'm a little skeptical of it because it does seem like it doesn't make any sense to do two SKUs.

It does two models. To me, I don't really think so. I think these pirates have obviously been planned out, taped out for a long time. I think AMD because they're in the consoles or saw that higher memory capacities were going to be needed and they started doing that last generation and get it up this generation, they're in fact heavily advertised in that right now. I think just like last generation with 3060 Nvidia's got a little flatfooted by that and but much more so because the sentiment against a gigabyte cards is so high right now because we're seeing all these iffy PC ports with higher memory needs. So I think there's going to be a 3060 type situation where, yeah, it's weird that a lower end product has an option for higher memory capacity than cards that cost twice as much.

But if they announce an eight gigabyte 4060 TI for 400 to $500, you can really only recommend that for 1080 gaming these days. And that's a hard sell for 400 $500, I guess I'm just trying to understand this. It feels like, you know, we know this was planned out a while ago.

The anger is only been sort of building over the last two months. Would you say three months to two months? I mean, it really seems like it's just gotten more steam. Well, I mean, I feel like the outpour thing maybe has been more vocal in the last month or so. But I think the simmering discontent slash resentment has been there for a long while now.

Yeah, I went back and read my 3070 review recently and I was already like, man, you know, more than eight gigabytes would be nice on a $500 graphics card. And that was before the pandemic. So, I mean, the time has been coming for a while, I guess. I mean, I'm just wondering, they really would react. It feels like it's relatively that quickly to to offer the new version.

It seems like that would be really fast. And then also, you know, Nvidia generally doesn't respond to what the community says. I think I disagree.

I think the exact opposite yet again, I think they're very responsive, as evidenced by the 30, 60 last generation, as evidenced by, you know, a couple of generations ago Vega, 56, came out and beat the 1070. So within a few months we had a 1070 tie, which is largely useless, but just edged ahead of Vegas of 56 on the graphic, on the benchmark charts. So I think that video is very responsive to these things and want to maintain a good image as much as possible. I guess maybe it's just because I'm very I view everything. It's not proven to me that I mean, again, I don't cover GPUs, but I guess I'm not 100% certain that having larger frame buffers is solving everything. Sometimes I really feel I still feel like I'm caught up in the old days where the size of frame offers is often a marketing tool.

When you have 16 gigs on a card that really has a very narrow bus, is it really going to make the difference that, you know, it's like taking remember they had AK 48 cards, I think. Did they have like an AK for And it really didn't make any difference before it. 80 was eight gigs. They had no they had ten gig and 12 gig for a 40. No, no, not for 80.

All right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So remember, because I mean, in going classically back to 15 years ago, the ad onboard vendors were like, Hey, we got more ram.

Like, what? This is a low end card. Why do you need this? And when we look at a lot of laptops, like they're, they're often stacked up with more memory. And I honestly think a lot of that is I still feel I mean, from a gaming perspective is done cynically because people go more RAM is better. And honestly, I just don't I still in my mind, I'm not convinced that it's always better. Well, back in that back in the day, I think it was usually just an upsell to charge people more, you know, bigger numbers, better on the box.

But these days, a lot of games are starting to run into the frame buffer limits, like two years ago, three years ago, watch Dogs Legion. When it came out, it would max it would go over eight gigabytes even without ray tracing turned on at 1440p even. And it's only getting more pronounced as time goes on. So in this specific case, I think we're at the point where, you know, it truly matters. Yeah, Well, and I guess for me, I have a hard time.

I have a hard time understanding what's the sweet spot. Right. The video comes out with a 4070 and it's got, you know, a card and there's like oh eight gigabytes is not enough. I'm just generally.

And then, you know, the audience is like, Oh, no, it should have been double. I'm like, okay, well then. Or but if you if you double that again and put 32 gigs on a, a 40, 70 like that doesn't make that card any, any better in the long term. Like, like what. Like business decisions you have to put in like okay well we want to put enough RAM for it to actually work properly, but you don't put in too much RAM that is just going to be wasted. I mean, because of course the audience is going to be like, Oh yeah, put 64 gigs of Ram on there.

I love it. I mean, you can't do that. So like what we're we're realistically is that sweet spot, especially for somebody on a 4060 like it They're not going to I mean sure it would be great to have 32 gigs on there but realistically you're running into two bottleneck somewhere else rather than the RAM. So yeah, it's kind of hard because, you know, the pricing segments are different than they were traditionally back in the day when we were talking about a 2060 tie or attend II, we're talking about a 300 year old graphics card, whereas these days they're closer to $500.

My guess and if you're spending that much money or simply wanting to make sure that you're spending that much money and don't have to turn down texture settings and stuff like that on a 1440 or higher monitor, I think you need at least 12. Ideally 16 gigabytes is what I would be looking for in a card. I'm spending $500 on these days just to make sure it keeps up with these console ports that come from, you know, console development that has so much more RAM available. Yeah, I mean, I mean, we'll get into the console ports in our second segment.

We're talking about gamers, but it just feels like and listen to I mean I'll I'll take I'll take all the VRAM we can for the video production side of it. That's the answer. But I mean, but I also realize that, I mean like Nvidia is not then going to come out and be like, Hey, actually we have a 4080 with 32 gig version, you know, like, I mean at some point it doesn't make sense.

And I think that's the hard part for me at least trying to understand is that like you have a company Nvidia's really seeing these cards and the audience is like, it's not enough. It should be higher, but I don't know where that higher limit is where because yeah, like, Oh yeah, it sucks to get a card for $500 and like have, have a game come out and you're like, well, crap, I'm running out of VRAM, but does that mean the company should have doubled the VRAM just for this, you know, handful of games that are sucking on it like, you know. But yeah, right again weird balancing act and I it's it's hard it's hard for me to understand because there's so much there's so much yelling on the Internet about it. So yeah, I think like I said, I think amd possibly because they are so involved in consoles, saw this coming and there's a reason they started loading up on memory last generation and kept it going. This generation, I think I mentioned my crazy conspiracy theory when bread maker was on here about how I think Nvidia limits RAM and it's G force cards because if you're using this for content creation or machine learning, they want you to buy a pricier card. So I'm not surprised to see them expand the memory offerings in these lower tier cards because a 46 by the GPU itself won't be doing those grunt tasks even with the bigger capacity as well as a higher tier card.

So there's less chance of that cannibalizing content creation machine. Well, in sales is my crazy conspiracy theory. No, and I get it. And I also think and to be fair, we don't really know if that's part of it, but I could also see part of the math could be, look, if we have a 47, 80 or 40, 80 with crapload of memory on it and then now everybody's buying these things do cheap machine learning at home.

We have we've basically replicated the crypto people. So now everybody's buying every single, you know, 16 gig, 40, 70 tie that they can and you can't buy the cards anymore and you create the exact same problem that you had with crypto. So you sort of, you know, again, you know, AMD's remember they said they intentionally hobbled some of the cards to make them not appeal to crypto people.

Of course nobody believe that. But I but it actually kind of made sense because if you had a and Vinnie actually did Yeah Nvidia did too right they they so I mean there are some reasons that if you do that like yeah sure it's going to kind of suck maybe in performance but also you can buy the damn thing because the you know you don't have these like you know budget machine learning people buying every single damn card and they don't care about the price because they're getting their money's worth for it. So I could see that also being part of the decision too, because that could make everything up for years.

Yeah, Yeah, that definitely could be. Especially because crypto was so big when these things were obviously planned and designed and everything. So that being said, in today's marketplace, man releasing this without a 16 gigabyte variant I really think would be a kiss of death for it if the pricing is what I expect it to be.

So let me ask you this, because I remember I haven't gone to a desktop Nvidia briefing in a long time. And I remember, you know, a long time ago is discussed because it's always you know, there's always discussion like, well, how what was the decision behind this much memory in the card? You know, the answers was always, well, look, we we just got a limited with us and this is the amount of memory, you know because they they have their intelligence based on talking to developers. And you know, there's also business decisions that go around.

You don't want to jack up the price of the card. So much for the memory price. There were always these kind of decisions that went into this.

Have they addressed that in the last couple desktop briefings? Because I kind of wonder that's everybody must be asking. I like, why are you doing this much memory? Why not? I'm just wondering if they've ever said like, yeah, we part of his business, part of it's like it just yeah you don't you you do not need 128 bit card with 24 gigs of RAM on it or whatever because it's just stupid. Right. That's just a waste of money.

But in the briefings I've been in has been asked recently because the higher to your cards up until this point have had enough memory I guess ideally the 40, 70 and 4780, I would have 16 gigabytes, but they don't. But 12 gigabytes is enough where you're like, All right, I can see that for 40, 70, that's fine. That's a big bump over the eight that it was.

So it hasn't been something that was asked for recently. Okay. But it's a gigabyte.

They have to get ahead of this because if they only launch this in eight gigabyte models, it'll be the same for whenever AMD launches their mid-tier cards, the 7600 next year or whatever. If they only launch in eight gigabyte models, they're going to have to price it. Extremely cheap to make enthusiasts want to touch that? Yeah, especially this 4060 if it does have 128 bit bus which again the laptop SKU does, there's good reason to believe that rumors are pointing towards that but they could just be riffing off the laptop SKUs that don't mean even though India baked in infinity cache like memory cache though it's L2 instead of L3 this time around 128 bit bus means this card will really really only excel at 1088. So you know they get they're going to be got a balance they need to walk there. Yeah I mean that's the thing is like if it's just simply optimally for 90% of games, eight gigs is fine, but they're sensitive to getting beat up by Intel and AMD because they're out marketing them on memory capacity of the cards, then they just cynically throw it on, even though they know it only gives you marginal improvements at all that the doesn't seem to benefit anybody.

Well, it depends on how you look at it. If this is indeed just the doubling of memory, it won't give you performance benefits. As far as overall bandwidth and stuff like that.

But capacity truly does matter and that's I have enough or I don't situation. So in the games where it does matter and you do need that capacity, if you only have an eight gigabyte card, then you're going to start hitting system RAM and get those stutters. So in a lot of cases going from eight gigabyte to 16 gigabyte on the exact same GPU won't matter.

But when it does, it does. It was interesting though, when when I helped Keith do that one video of the 280 $280 cards. So it was the, you know, AMD Intel and video and they all had eight gigs of RAM, but some of them still handled the the VRAM limits better than others. Like the like, I don't know.

And I think that was a bus thing. But yeah, it was a I don't remember exactly. We'd have to go back. It could be a bus thing. They all have different memory compression technologies and stuff like that too. Like a video is real good. AMD has been catching up, but a bit has been best in class for a while.

I don't know what to say about Intel's off the bat, but that kind of stuff can make a difference for that too. Yeah, I mean that's and this is a weird thing that I've noticed too, is that like one of yes, there are a handful of games out there that are using a ton of RAM. A lot of the situations that I've seen that are very limited is because of Raytracing.

So people people are yelling, Oh crap, I need more VRAM to use Raytracing, which is what you're heavily advertising. But then they're also I don't want Ray tracing out of play, Ray tracing, Ray tracing sucks. It's like, okay, well then you don't need that extra VRAM. Like, like I feel like once again, I'm hearing it from both ends. Like, just like I feel Adam. I feel like maybe if you think about this, the way that Gordon talks about like k parts unlocked CPU's I think that might solve some of your confusion because people like the security of knowing they can do something with something, right? So doing more with something even if they never use it right like is the reason why people stockpile their homes with goods because they don't they are probably not going to use that much of whatever, but it makes him feel better to have it right.

Okay. You got you have a point there. I like that. Yeah. So I think the two I mean, obviously Brad's our guru here, but from my less educated standpoint on these cards, I would say that, like, even system RAM right there is like a general trend where, like where, you know, like the upper limit, the reasonable upper limit to be. So I think when a lot of times we listen to people in there say like it needs more, but they're not what they're not, they're not saying that they want to stick 64 gigabytes onto a lower end card.

They want to see that it has like they want to see the meaningful step up, save a trickle down effect. Right. So like if a high end card used to have 16, eventually they want to see that come to like the mid-tier. Right. And I think that's kind of the argument we're seeing now.

Like the people are starting to feel that 16 is more of an established number, right? So why are we seeing numbers closer to that on these cards that have drifted up in price that are no longer $330 like a 40? 70 is like no. Even inflation adjusted is nowhere near what it was several generations ago. So I think if that helps you like that's kind of where you ballpark it. Yeah, I do. One or two of some of this is a I don't know how to describe it.

I'm trying to use the term that's going to be non-offensive but look lower informs like your ears, kid, because the medium was generally good. It's usually as you get into lower. So like you can argue 40, 80, 40 $90,000 graphics card. Byron up there they're going to be they're going to tend to be enthusiast not of course it's not always the case because some people just got to have access of money. But I wonder if you sort of assume higher end buyers are more informed, they're doing more, you know, they're doing more research on it as you get into more mainstream skews like 40, 60, 40, 50 kind of class people are not going to be switched on to every single nuance of a graphics card. And it actually may be more useful to have the 16 gig number on the box at 4680, right? Yeah, because they don't. Yeah.

I mean the thing that I always this goes back you know 15 years ago the that whenever you would talk to the analyst would always say like okay what are the top selling PCs at the big box stores. What are the things that that sell. What are the reasons why consumers would buy it. So an average consumer going to a, you know, Best Buy or Costco or wherever your favorite, you know, big box store is they look at CPU it's core I7 A core i7 is to better than five.

It's got a five or 1012 gig hard drive. So it's got a bigger hard drive. I need that one terabyte hard drive, I need that.

And then the third thing they would always look at and it would always confuse the hell out of me. And I would disagree because like, oh well number three must be graphics card, right? Is it, is it this version, this Radeon or this GeForce card? That's what consumers know. The number three thing all consumers used to look at in America 15 years ago was the amount of RAM the system had. Oh, it's got eight gigs. Ram's got six.

What what the hell do you need six and gives you RAM for with integrated graphics, right. I mean where do you like. And it was always the weirdest thing because traditionally when I mean I mean I don't know if things have changed but like all of the animals outfits you know JPR and or like consumers always bought on those three things RAM hard drive CPU then they Americans have never traditionally cared about GPUs. I don't know if that's changed or not, but I just kind of think again, that kind of like less informed buyer they see 16 gig for for for graphics card and like oh it's a bigger number and the interesting thing and this is that's a little bit of trivia here is the all the research back then would always indicate Asia Europe especially Germans.

It's always about GPU like discrete GPU were really really high on the list here in America. They didn't care I that's probably I would hope has changed because I always advocated for GPU over winning you know 32 gigs Ram and your stupid machine with IGP but that's that was that was always a problem. I just wonder if they're sort of like really. And then again I mean that when you're getting down to 40, 60, 46 ETR that's more mainstream ish. I think it used to be. That's where I agree with everything you're saying, but I disagree with that assessment to some degree.

I think it used to be mainstream. I think the reality is that's what you cost these days. But nonetheless, I think the reality for everyday gamers like you and I, 400 to 500 bucks is still a lot of money. I don't consider that mainstream whatsoever.

If you're buying a graphics card rather than a console, like you're choosing to go do that. So I think there's quite a bit more knowledgeable gamers. Who's going to be buying the 60 class GPU this time around? Some of those enthusiast folks are like, Man, there's no way I'm spending 800 bucks on a 47 DTI. I don't want to spend $600 on a 4070 to only play 1440p I guess I'm holding out for the 40, 60 and 46 I in a video, you know, it's kind of in a quandary of its own making here is they've been incredibly aggressive about jacking up prices ever since 20 series. Uh you know the pandemic obviously helped with that helped but Nvidia was doing that the second introduced Raytracing and Dlss us like and the trend has just continued.

But at the same time they've been limiting the amount of RAM that around these cards for whatever reason. While you know modern ports use more RAM and ray tracing uses for RAM. So it's kind of a problem of their own making from all these different complicated factors.

Yeah. And I know one point of this this comment from free 777 power I mean really has no competition and that's why they can price it the way they're doing. And I agree. I mean, again, we don't really know what exactly is the math behind their decisions on the size of the frame buffers here. But they are the they're clearly the leaders they own, what, 70 to 80% of the graphics market for discrete and desktop. They probably have 90% of graphics on laptop.

And when you get in that, that is essentially the same position Intel was when they were like, you know what, $1,123 for the and you're never going to let that one. You can't because you can't Yeah you would say no but I think it's amazing that like that's like that's just like Gordon's forever set point for that it had a reference point, right That was really like an inflection point. Broadwell The ten cores 1700 what I mean I don't know the price of any other CPU except for that one because that was really like, you know, you, you're the market leader.

Somebody, somebody from the accounting side says we need more money. You need to make more money. Well, let's let's just make it $1,023 for two more cores. And it was like and they did it. And of course Ryzen showed up, but it was just like this kind of weird inflection point.

I don't think it really has hit their hit that yet. And I don't really sort of see that coming to you because, I mean, unfortunately Aimed and Nvidia and Intel have not put pressure on an NVIDIA the way I think we all expected them to, although I guess the 1490 has taken a haircut supposedly. I don't know if that's all of the higher end cards have the 4070 is the first card or not the first card. All of the 40 series cards did not sell out at launch. Aside I think from the 4090, the 4080 sat there in stock forever. They they recently began having price reductions.

The 4780 same deal. It started having price reductions. We've seen discounts on some 4070s at this point, I don't think it's as bad as bad as an inflection point as that 1720 $3.10 courtship was.

But I think with you know, inflation in the economy and everything being what it is, I think it's a bad time for it. They'd be trying to charge these prices. And I think they're facing that.

Speaking of you guys want to take some guesses. The prices for these if these rumors went up, proven true, 40, 40, 70 was $600, $600. Yes, I know. People hate that. Yes, there are a lot of asses. Sibilance.

You know, I would just called. Sibilance. Yep. I don't buy no. Okay, I'm in, say, 40, 60 $500. Which one? Eight or 16. I you're right there. I think that's going to Well that kind of points to the 16 gig version if it's true being $500 because you can't price is the same as 4070 tie right that is that makes no sense.

So that kind of points 4060 tie at $600 and 4060 at $500 I think. Well let's see what the 3060 tie were. What was it when it came out, the 3060? Was there even a three? CTI Yeah, there's was it I don't even remember what was the price of those now. I don't remember what MSP was, but I mean, what's new in crisis or just. Oh yeah, there was oh yeah, that was the best card.

There was the 3060 tie picked. But that was $400. Yeah, 400 bucks. That was my favorite card. Last generation, actually.

I just. You could never find it. So I went out of my head. So, yeah, if the 3060 tie was around $400, then I bet. Yeah, I bet the lower end version is going to be for 50. And the 16 gig version is 500 or 520 something like I'm, I'm going to guess the same $400 price for the eight gig, 4605 possibly for 50, but probably $500 for the 16 gig version because if all the reviews, the exec version say this is a great card, it's a shame it doesn't have 16 gigabytes, they'll be like, All right, you can get the 16 gigabyte version for the 500 bucks we would like to be charging. It's kind of like an upsell form.

And if that 4060 is truly eight gig and truly gets announced at COMPUTEX as well, I would expect that to be the same 329 price point as 36, even though I think it should be $300. All right, so there's three parts. So 4686 gig, you're saying 540, 68 gig, you're saying four and then a 40, 68 for 3329. I think they're going to match the prices from last gen for the base models. God, you know, I, I yeah I say $50 premium on all of the numbers I would think given how these prices are higher than last gen, even with the counting for inflation, I have a trouble of thinking that they would not take the opportunity to put the standard a standard 4060 whenever that becomes a thing in that price slot at 400.

I think that was their original intention, but I think the realities of these cards, not a single one selling out throughout this generation at this point. Where are you seeing sales and whatnot on these? I think they're going to try to hit the same prices as last June. That's just my guess. Again, Nvidia reacting to the current situation, both with a 16 gigabyte buffer option, if that's true and by reducing prices versus where they want it, I don't know. I'm not making any 4070s under 600 on Newegg.

Probably not. So. So yeah, there's a lot of stock but those prices aren't moving. Yeah, that's the thing you got to think about. MSP Yeah, there wouldn't be too many sales on 4070 yet. Uh, those are 600. But it's cool that you see so many at 600 bucks because it indicates that they're actually trying to hit MSP as opposed to the higher end models and last year and what they would announce MSR.

Pete Rice Yeah, they'd make like five of those and then they would only be hundred plus premium high end boards available. Yeah, well, don't worry. There's a more expensive versions of the 4070 as well. You know, how much demand do we think is built up right now for the 500 and below price point? Because I feel like that segment has been ignored for a pretty long time, just substantially ignored like there have been like bones thrown in that direction.

But I'm also wondering how much that the pricing for a 40, 60 tie would take that into account. Right. Like I see where you're coming from in your argument that, you know, with it being kind of soft, the reception to the higher end cards, they might be more conservative about how they push the pricing on the mid, mid essentially mid-tier cards. But if they also think that demand super like kind of like just buried there, they might not move it as much or like keep it lower because they might think, okay, maybe that's where we're going to get more of that demand.

So I'm kind of curious what you think and I guess everybody what they think we all think about how many people have just been sitting on older cards or just holding off because they just don't want to spend $600 for a graphics card? I mean, a lot of there's a lot of folks well, I think a lot of those people have found 30 series deals, too, right? I mean, there's definitely been some good 30 series deals. I think at this point it has been have a decade since the affordable mainstream has taken seriously, in my opinion, for initial release. I think at this point I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of folks either bought a console because you can easily find these these days. You know, Intel arc and the 6600 series are both really good. So if you were jonesing that bad, you might have picked that up already. But I think a lot of folks will only buy for sad but true.

And so there probably is quite a bit of pent up demand. But at the same time, again, you know, $400 is a lot of money and your money doesn't go as far as it used to be. And this is definitely a luxury item. So,

yeah, I think I think they're going to I think they're going to have to take that into account, especially with these eight gigabyte models now that that's such a big controversy. Now, you know, actually, Brad, you've convinced me and I'm going to I'm going to track my previous guesses and I'm just going to I'm just going to look over your desk up the side of my eye. I'm going to write down on your paper. I'm going to write down the exact same things because I actually think 40, 68 gig for 329 350 makes a lot of sense, you know, because I tell you want to you know, it makes it doesn't make a lot of sense in a lot of ways because, you know, because they know that, you know, any time you have a relationship, they know they're the market leader. They clearly been the market leader forever and they know it's they may have to service that relationship a little more. So I could see Jensen coming out on stage I remember he's going to keynote a copy text.

He comes out and he's now going to drop his cards at prices basically matching 30 class. And actually the thing that's kind of made up that's kind of baloney Internet lying to itself is the 30 series cards were never actually MSRP. So that was complete.

You never could ever get them close to MSP. But if you can actually get 40 series at MSP, it patches up. You know, this rough patch that they've had with, you know, because they they understand people are angry at them over prices whether that's in their control or not, I don't know but people are angry he can come out, play hero, drop these things out you know actual MSPs where they the previous cards ever existed and then now suddenly will everybody forgive Nvidia and like, oh my God, I can't quit you. I love you anyway kind of thing is that's what's going to happen. I think it it could actually work and makes a lot of sense and then it also services like look they know that Intel has gotten the plane off the ground. Yeah and the fire's out on one of the engines the gears of retracted, they're clearly launched. People actually look at those things

like pricing these things to be very competitive with Intel and put a dent on AMD with because of their branding that that makes a lot of sense because you got down to that price range. You have to fight on price. So Brad, you've convinced me and I kind of think that could be a big sell for Computex because it's like, I know you're really angry about these car prices. 4063 20 oh oh he chips is going to come out and do Bill Clinton. I just think I just I just want to say for the audio listeners, this whole time that Gordon's been talking, Adam has just been sitting next to him shaking his head.

Oh, yeah. Because Jensen Jensen loves to come out and be the hero. Oh, man. See, I can't wait to play hero. I didn't they don't necessarily love to be the hero, but they like to smash the competition. And right now, I mean, listen, I like making it 329 for 46, the same price as the ARC 8770 is right now sends a message to Intel.

It also they're trying to pick up the adoption of DNS as three and you need that you need people who has that card in the hands of gamers to get developers to want to support it, even though it's taken off to a rocket start. And if you can and you need 40 series for that so you can have the higher end money coming in from the 40, 70, 40, 80, etc.. But then say, hey, you know, here's 329 bucks, it's finally time to get back on modern technology after five years of drought or whatever. They already said it was. Dollar says three. Yeah, it was.

If the cards sold or the prices they were supposed to me, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah Yeah, I think it, I think it I think it makes sense because it really that is a really good way to. Hey, I know it's been rough.

You know one the upside of that and on the flip side of that, if you put out a 4068 gigabyte for $379, $50 upcharge or whatever, that's going to get probably, you know, hauled through the gutter in reviews would be my guess is that it would firmly be a ten HP graphics card for $800 that might stutter or $400 that might stutter in some games like Last of US and other ones like that. So yeah yeah. Mean you know and I can also again I so so we are going to Adam and I will be our contacts and will I will say we are going to be there I hopefully we can get into the keynote. I'm pretty sure we're going to be there.

Maybe we're recording. Gordon for Adam's, we'll record Adam's reaction because I, I think he's going to stop me at the door. But, you know, the last time I saw Jensen live was at CBS Radio on seven and then 2060 launch.

And the 2060 launch was Nvidia's feeling that they had because they they could not understand why people were so pissed off over the 20 series launch. I mean, I think it really confused them a little bit and they really thought the 2060 was the thing that was going to make people happy. It didn't make people happy, but I mean that. So I do think there's really a real precedent for that. Like come out and hear, hear, everything's good, right? I'll get a better I'll take that.

Skeptical Jenn Jensen doesn't need to be the hero. He doesn't need to make an plenty of money. And I think also, I think, you know, the the point the problem, too, is it doesn't matter because I think it really is sort of in this weird position. And frankly, any market leader always is always in that position.

Intel was here at that at one point to no matter what you do, people are not going to be happy. So if they did a 30, 40, 68 gig for 329 when the 3060 Internet did not ever come out of MSP, that's actually pretty good. Even though even though the performance might be parity with conventional gaming, maybe better in some other areas or more advanced things.

But I do think it's actually a pretty good bone to throw to people. Right. And you have to remember the 36 was 12 gigs too. So if the 4060 comes at the same price with eight gigs, there's a way that save some money right there. Yeah. Yeah.

And then you know, you're going to get all the advance features. So I think there's and in most people and again, I don't want to overly generalize but the the 46 buyer is not going to be watching 5 hours of YouTube videos before they buy it. I'll probably go, it's 1000 more than the 3060 and it's better. Right? And I think you underestimate waiting a 4060 buyer? Yeah, I would say I think people underestimate you like the more the more of that takes of your budget, the more hours you have to spend working to afford that item, the more research you're going to do because you're confusing you're confusing people who buy like OEM, like Dell's with a single slot or 75 watt card. Those buyers aren't going to be doing tons of research on things if somebody's spending 3 to $400.

Don't be rude, Gordon. If someone spending 3 to $400 on a card and that is a lot of money for them, they sure as heck are going to be researching that. Not for the same reasons as someone who is a high end buyer. High end buyer's going to be looking at that research because they want to be able to squeeze the absolute most performance out of those cards. So they want the absolute best and they want to see how much they can get for their money.

A 40, 60 buyer is going to say, okay, how long is this card going to last? Me If I invest in this card and they're going to research the heck out of that because they want their money to go far. Actually, I, I agree with you, Lynnette, But to Gordon's point, at the 200 and, you know, the 300 ish price point, the 6650, he beats the hell out of the 3050. And man, that thing is not selling the same. People are still buying the 3050. So and every every chart I've ever seen is like, man, why would you buy a 3050? So we're talking about the we were talking about the card that had the like the weird caveat to it aren't we don't know. That's a different one.

That's the one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You're thinking of the 6560. Okay. Sorry, I had misheard the number. That's my answer. So the reason I'm disagreeing and I and again, I actually agree disagree. I do think that there's two classes of buyers there. One is the Elaina type buyer that you're talking about that is like, oh, my God, wow, this is incredible.

I've never seen copper one know so thin. Oh, it was a penny. It was a penny. I gave it to a 40, 60 buyer and Elena and. Damn, like, look at this.

This is like, this is like three nanometer copper wire. How did you make that out of a penny? Well, you get it to the 40, 60 buyer. They are going to make you some three nanometer TSMC wiring right there. Those are the people that I think are very small and that frankly, these people don't know. I mean, it's a smaller crowd. People don't really care about them because those people that will circle that they will circle that by is like, man, this is okay, I've done my research.

But you know what? I know if I wait till this day, I can get it for 40% less. So then like, you know what, screw you. Get out of my store. The vast majority of people that are buying in this class range are pre-built, OEMs pre-built, and they just want a bundle deal. They sell it, you know, a metric ton of these things at at at stores, they see 60 class card.

I think that really is the mark the larger part of that market. I do agree that there are people like you that are making the three nanometer copper wires out of pennies. That's real, but that's just a smaller part of the market, I think.

So that's that's the reason my rationale. You are changing the context of the conversation, though, that point. I don't disagree with that point.

However, when you're talking about people who are doing research, who are carrying about a $400 card that are those are people who are buying a car, dude, those are DIY people. Because if you're buying a pre-built, you're not typically going to be examining the actual cost of the part versus the performance The way that someone that you are saying would or would not research would. Right? They may be at most would go to PC part picker and say like, I guess if I were to do this myself, how much would it cost me? But probably not even that. They're probably just going to go, Do I want to spend 1200 dollars for the system? Does it sound reasonable for $10? And then they're going to put their credit card number in. Right.

But that is different than the original argument you presented. Dude, I think that's not that classic, you know, because you get changes like that. What I'm saying is the people that are buying these cards, they're buying them in prebuilt they don't they don't. They're not. That changes your original argument.

We were. Yeah. Well then you're right. We're talking about. Yeah. When you're talking about the penny people. Right. You're specifically talking about that.

We're talking about examining the card. Yeah. DIY because those are. Those are the people who predominantly are going to be buying a card, looking at the price just of the card.

Right. If we're talking about people who are upgrading a built independently, like that's a whole different, even smaller segment if we're getting there. The part the part that's interesting about all this to me is that competition might play a factor in this because all the rumors right now suggest that AMD Radeon is going to, for now, skip the 7800 series and 7700 series and possibly launch a 7600 right around the same time frame. And they're in their recent quarterly statement, Lisa Su actually said, we're going to be launching a mainstream this quarter. So whichever if they both launch in 60 or 600 class cards, whichever, you know, company manages to launch first, really gets to set the tone and pace here.

So we'll have to see how aggressive both of them want to be. That would be really interesting, right, Because the 16 gigabyte version of this 46 card supposedly would be coming out in July, right? Yes. So if AMD were to come out with a larger capacity VRAM card and in the same class, but in that same what may timeframe, Computex or even in June before the other card comes out, that could give them an advantage. Yeah.

So it's going to be an interesting may I think it it makes sense too, because in that way, because we know you know, amd being in frankly the weaker position on GPUs, they have to they have to mark they have to give you more for your money. So larger frame buffers and I could see they already do and people still aren't buying them. I know, but I mean, I could sort of like put them alone, but it feels like it's really kind of reached a boiling point and people are.

But again, you're right, Adam, They No. One buying them. So I do wonder if, like me, it really does surprise me. Like when when I did that, that shootout at 280 and I'm actually doing testing for the 350, a lower price point.

I'm just like, wow. Like, I mean, you know, this difference. Yeah. If you're if you're just gaming the AMD version all, all day, all night.

Yeah. But the problem is, again, they're not selling like that. So. Yeah, yeah. The problem is the initial reviews I think for a lot of these like when that card launched, it cost a whole lot more now that the pandemic and that some will just cycle issues are kind of behind us. Uh these prices have dropped dramatically and that's why they offer so much more money than the 3050 for the same price. But if you go look for the reviews of these things, it's still going to say, Yo, how did they launch this at $380? That's way too much money.

So I think that's the thing that both both of these companies are going to have to try to navigate this time around. I always love the the staring contest to get between both of them and the like. And, you know, it's just it's it's a high stakes poker game because if AMD flips over the specs and the prices and this much memory, the Nvidia, they could either go like, okay, we're just going to we're just going to bluff you out of this and still go 8 gig cards, you know, because maybe, maybe they don't do it because they know that people will buy a 4068 before they will buy a 16 gig Radeon.

And that's just sad, right? Same thing for Intel too. They just don't. Which is. Yeah, well, I think you should dismiss this current poll will as I want you do. When will will Jensen play hero at Computex? Meaning will Jensen come out and be like, Hey, you know what? We didn't increase price. Same price is going to be the hero.

Well, I just want to know if people are still going to like, are they? I am almost certain that if it comes out at 329, you know, then people are going to be, I still love you, man. You know, I just think it's going to happen. Right? Because the you know, the Internet is fickle. If they were to come out that price. But 329 is a dramatic low price for a t i version of that card. And I think between 6090.

So the 6090 and I think it'll probably still outperform 8770, right? Oh, yeah. So then it just feels like they, you know, they really need to, you know, the funny thing is going on winding the clock back to where we thought Intel was going to actually show up and kind of disrupt the the game here. It's been very delayed like that battle we thought was going to happen two years ago is now finally happening now. I think maybe I mean, that could be very compelling for a bunch of gamers right now. Intel is also a friend of the show. Bray Thorne.

Uh, could see, but he gave us $10. Super chat. Thank you so much. You d

2023-05-13 10:27

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