How “active sourcing” helps developers land a dream job - Daniel Le & Mike, Co-founder, HeyDevs
Good morning in Vietnam. It's your host Hao Tran, the CEO of VIETCETERA and your host for Vietnam Innovators. We're here for another episode this week. This week it's about recruitment, it's about people, it's about HR and more specifically tech talent. I know that a lot of you listening to today's podcast are wondering, "Hey, I should build a team in Vietnam, but where do I start?" Especially if it's for technology workers, which here in Vietnam we have a lot of. Here today we have two experts in that field.
One of them is a friend of mine that I've known for a couple years. His name is Daniel. He's one of the co-founders. We also have Mike. He's more on the technical side, I believe, of this new platform called Hey Devs. I'll let them explain
what HeyDevs is themselves. Welcome to the show. Daniel, Mike. Thanks very much. We're going to get started in just a little bit, but before we do, we're going to do a little bit of a rapid fire question. Super short, no right, no wrong. Let's get to it. Okay. First question for you, Daniel.
What brought you to Vietnam? Love. What brought you to Vietnam? Back to Vietnam. Well, COVID. COVID. Okay. What keeps you in Vietnam? Opportunities. Also opportunities and the potential which Vietnam as a country has in store. If you had to describe HeyDevs in one sentence, how would you do it? Currently the most innovative solution which exists in APAC. Basically, we
convert the traditional sourcing agency into a scalable platform. What are the changes HeyDevs aims to make in Vietnam? The changes which we're going to emphasize here is especially on two sides, one for clients, that they're learning how to do more effective recruiting in the tech industry, but also giving benefits especially for candidates. So for the techies here are feeling comfortable in the whole recruiting process as well. So giving back a very good candidate experience for them as well. Same question to you, Mike. What are the changes HeyDevs aims to make in Vietnam? Hey Devs not only providing but also solving the desire and the panpoise from both sides, the candidate side and the client side. On a Sunday at 10am,
where would you be and what would you be doing? Probably in Salah Park, having a walk with my girlfriend and my two dogs. What's your favorite Vietnamese word or phrase? You can't, you know. I know it but I can't say it. Oh, you can't say it. All right, guys. Thank you for those rapid fire
questions. It's a nice little fun way for our audience to get to know you guys a bit better. Let's move into the main podcast in the main conversation.
I'd love to hear a little bit about yourselves to start off. Daniel, I do know you but I also don't. So by that, I mean like I'd like to know more about your background but also about how you two met and started Hey Devs. So Daniel, I'll let you kick it off here. Short introduction about myself. As mentioned, I'm a German Vigil. So I was born, grew up in Germany and I did my bachelor degree in Germany, did my master degree in human resource management back in UK and Sheffield in Cambridge. After that, I've worked for quite a lot of different international companies and they're especially in the field of recruiting. So
basically, I have over 10 years experience in the tea industry, 80 years over that in recruiting and I was always responsible back in European for building and scaling up new tech hubs either for startups or for as a venture for big enterprises in European for companies like Nike, Metro, Miele, Amazon. And yeah, three years ago, as mentioned, I moved back to Vietnam due to private reasons. Right. Okay. And how did you two meet in Vietnam? So I'll let Daniel asks answer that first. And then I'd love to hear from you, Mike, about why you're back here and all that. So basically, we
met via the overseas Vietnamese group, I think you are also part of that group. Yeah, exactly. And so we were in the business chat and Mike, he contacted me and we just met we met at his company's office, we just had a coffee chat. Similar to that here right now, we were discovering different opportunities and our experience back on international level compared to Vietnam. And that's where we shared the same passion about the topic recruiting and hiring in channel. And that's where we're saying, hey, let's combining our strength and our knowledge together and building something great.
Okay. So Mike, you know, offline, we were just you were mentioning you're from Vietnam, but you spent about 10 years in the US. Maybe you can talk about what you did in the US. And then what brought you to leave all of that that you built in the US to come back to Vietnam. So I, I've been in the US over 11 years, before that I was in a grad school, doing PhD in CS, computer science. So after that, I moved up to
the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, working for a few startups. Then I came back working at Google. So during my grad school, I did internet Google, after five years working in Google's and I left and I joined co-folding a layer one blockchain called Harmony One. And then I left and joy working with Andy Rubins, who, who is famously called the father of Android OS. Right.
Yeah. Kovi Cabant came back here. And I started a co-live lab focusing on building web three blocks. Yeah. So now you're with HeyDevs. Now, so after meeting Daniel, like we started working with, with HeyDevs, because I always have a keen interest in three different areas. Like the first one is, you know, real estate, finance, blockchain, and recruiting with HeyDevs. You know, when, when I came back to Vietnam, I started codelike, I got a lot of frustration with, you know, job boss. At that moment, I knew that eventually I
would do something to disrupt that industry. And now I'm very excited working on HeyDevs. And it's pretty simple, technically, but very innovative and scalable. Why did HeyDevs choose Vietnam as its base? I mean, Daniel, you're, you've been tasked by big global companies like Metro and Amazon to build technology teams everywhere around the world. Why do you see the company building its team here first in Vietnam? Why, what are the opportunities that you got from that? Basically, as mentioned, when I arrived back here three years in Vietnam, what I realized, especially in the recruiting industry that or in the market here in Vietnam is that in Vietnam, the market just getting changed from a so-called employer market to a candidate market. I think I need to explain it a little bit better. And candidate market means
in this terms that there are so many different open vacancies, but a shortage of available qualified candidates. So this means there is a war of talent or war for talents going on right now. This just getting started here in Vietnam with saying that basically HR or slash companies, and they this is completely new environment or new situation for them. And they are not used to
this new environment and don't know yet how to solve this problem. And with the experience, which I'm having back in European, of course, because what Vietnam is facing or the companies are facing here right now directly is what we face 10, 15 years ago back in European and in US already. So that's why Mike and I, we want to help the companies here in Vietnam, of course, to win this war of talent and also for Vietnamese companies or Vietnam in general to compete on international level in combination, of course, additionally, because we both have with gills. So we having Vietnamese blood and Vietnamese roots as well. And that's why we are also emotionally bounded to the country. That's why we choose Vietnam as our base. Great. I mean, you guys are coming in from two different perspectives to you,
Mike, have been from the more entrepreneurial sense historically, you've started companies, but worked as an engineer at companies as well. You've seen how difficult it is to get coworkers together on your teams, for instance, on your side, Daniel, but the recruiting side, it's always a challenge. Finding people is one thing, but putting them in the right places is another thing. And I think approaching it from two different perspectives into one company, it'll be interesting to see how the results of that is over the coming years. Let's talk about the tech recruiting side, what those key challenges and areas that require attention exactly. Mike, I'll move it over to you first, because you mentioned that you've worked with all these job listing platforms. You haven't
been happy with any of them. You've seen some of the problems that they're not addressing. What are those problems exactly that you've identified and how HeyDevs might be solving them, or you hope to be solving them? In my opinion right now, the most effective way of hiring is the active sourcing. From our research, we see that in Germany, active sourcing is 80% effective in term of hiring. In Vietnam, it's about 60, 65, so you see the trend is coming, assuming that the western side or Germany is way ahead Vietnam. In my opinion, it's very simple, but it's innovative because we just converting the best approach, hiring into a platform, I would say a scalable platform. Usually, it has
been done by agency approach, but here we convert into scalable platform and it could be shared to 1000 clients. Everything is agency approach here in Vietnam, from what I see at least. When you guys were invited to the show and I was reviewing HeyDevs, it's fairly new company of course, so not everything is out there yet, but the value prop you're trying to communicate, the other companies are not doing that because they're just agencies. They're not platforms. I think that's a very big shift in mindset a little bit. I want to move over to Daniel, same question, but from a different perspective, from a recruiter's perspective, everything is agency driven, everything's people driven. You go on LinkedIn,
you message people, you meet for them with coffee. It's not easy, you're having 10 coffees a day in order to hit your KPI and that's not scalable. You can't have 10 coffees a day. Maybe you can share about what the pain points you discovered Daniel and then what HeyDevs from your perspective as a recruiter you're trying to solve. Exactly what you were mentioning, for going on LinkedIn, approaching people and meeting them for coffee. Normally in Vietnam, these are tasks which right now the role of HR manager or HR executive is doing. But of course, you need to understand that
HR has so many different pillars and tasks in general. And right now HR in Vietnam, they are also taking over the task of recruiting. However, the topic recruiting itself is so complex and that due to the nature of time and resource, of course, normal HR person cannot fulfill the task of recruiting really appropriately to filling up open positions, especially when it comes to tech positions. So one key challenges which I'm seeing here is of course time and knowledge in that role. The second thing is as well, when
we're talking about tech recruiting, the IT landscape, it's changing so fast on daily, weekly, monthly basis, even developer techies, they cannot keep up with all the new trends as well, especially not a normal recruiter because they didn't normally didn't study it. They are doing recruiting, right? So they cannot keep up with the new technologies, understanding it appropriately as well. So what they definitely need is either more time that they can understand the new technology as well, or they need appropriate tools, technology, solutions, digital solutions, which helps them in their daily activities in recruiting. So another key factor or key problem in recruiting in general is right now more on the business side. What I see is that quite a lot of companies, they know that of course salaries is the biggest and highest cost block, but the second biggest normally is directly all the costs for recruiting.
We're talking here about all the different recruiting tools, marketing campaigns for employer branding, we talk about CMB, so compensation benefits for the employees and for the stuff as well. And this is what organization needs to realize that the cost for recruiting is so high and it would be way cheaper for organization of investing into appropriate CMB to retaining this stuff. So let me stop there for just a second. So in your previous life as a recruiter, how much were you spending per engineering hire in a place like Vietnam? In Vietnam or? Yeah.
Roughly it would have been, I would say four and a half to five thousand. Basically five thousand US dollars. That's the cost of any incentives that are paid, but also the cost of time and energy, just five thousand dollars.
Minimum, so minimum. So through a platform like HeyDev, that's one of the things that's trying to solve, make it more cost efficient so you can actually spend that money in retention instead of recruitment. Exactly. So what would the cost be through HeyDev do you think? Well, HeyDev is a recruiting platform, right? So the cost would be way cheaper, so roughly up to 80 percent is cheaper than using other current existing solutions here in the Vietnam market. Okay. Well, if you're listening to that and you're recruiting tech talent,
that's definitely one thing to think about. And to shift those resources, I think that's the main takeaway. Recruitment is still very important. You need that top of the funnel. You need to convert
for sure. That's a demand that every recruiter has, but also bigger HR strategies about retention. Exactly.
Okay, very cool. So Daniel, from your perspective as a recruiter, could you touch upon what the current market landscape is like? Like how long does it take to hire an engineer? Is it easy? Is it difficult? Maybe give us a snapshot of what the landscape is. Yeah, depending on the skill set and the resource which a company provides, of course, for the recruiting team can be either very fast or very slowly, because also totally depends on the internal recruiting process. So when I did the operation and recruiting for Metro Digital here in Vietnam, the fastest hiring was within two days. Two days. Two days, yeah. And we had four recruiting
rounds, but it's manageable when you're doing it really fast. Or in the latest, let's say the longest took me three weeks. But of course, also here, totally depends on the organizational size, but also the recruiter themselves, how good they are in managing the stakeholders in the process.
So Mike, you have your company here, Hey Devs is now here as well. Why Vietnam from your perspective is building a talent pool here, attractive from an engineering point of view? So basically, HeyDevs is not only for Vietnam. So when I want to do something, I want to do something like global. And I think it's make a lot of sense for us to start with Vietnam.
We want to build out the whole software, the whole, you know, sale and operation team and figure out the right recipe. And then we can replicate us to multiple countries like Thailand, Singapore, or latest. And you know why this wise, we started with Vietnam first. Talking about the candidate's point of view. So Mike, you've probably been tried to, companies have tried to hire you, not you just hiring people, right? So I think from a candidate's point of view, how does HeyDevs work? How do you see the customer experience working and what benefits does it offer compared to the other platforms? Maybe you can touch upon that. Yeah, so to be for answer that, so I would say, HeyDevs not only provide the value, but also keep the benefits from, you know, both side, the candidate side and the company side. How does the app work for the candidate size? So basically the candidates can go to the website on a mobile app, create profile, and they could turn on open to work. So after that, they would have different
events. They would wave for the opportunity from the companies. They would receive the notifications in mobile or email from the web app and they would receive advice from the company. They will see some other numbers like which company or how many companies look at their profiles.
Something like that. So ideally I would think like for the candidates, even if they are a passive candidate, we are the best place for them to join and turn on open to work because they don't, they're not going to go to the job or job or, and in our platform we keep their privacy. So no one know that they open to a new opportunity for active candidates. So they would go to another job board, but like we could be the first place for them to go and join, turn on open to work. So with that, we are actually tapping like 80% of the candidates. So as I mentioned before, our clients
will love products for by design. So basically we reduce the time of hiring. So instead apply posting in multiple job boards, waiting for a CV and then screening. But how to build really high quality pool of open to work candidates. So the definition of high quality is like at least 95% of the candidates in our site is truly open to work. And to do that, we do it like in three ways.
The first one is because in the beginning we don't have the brand awareness yet. So we have to have the IT success team working to acquire the new candidates or keep in touch with the existing candidates and tell them if they are really open to work. In theory, like they could be in the 80% of the pool like passive and active. So the high
chance we could convince them. The second channel because we had to build really good branding in terms of passive job seeking. So because we are the first scalable platform. So our marketing team is going to introduce a new term like passive job seeking in Vietnamese called like the Invict tool down. And it's really important. So if we do it good enough, we actually don't need the IT success team. Either they are passive or active, they would go to our platform and we provide a lot of values. Like we have the technical hub and
importantly, we keep their privacy. We also introduce something like unbiased hiring. We keep their agendas, their ages. So that's how it works for the candidates. So the idea is if I'm a developer, for instance, and I want to be in the HeyDevs database, I want to be kept up to date. I'm being actively sent opportunities based on my requirements or interests, even if I'm not looking for a job. So basically it's a we ideally by design, we should be the best place for them to go there and express their desire. Okay. And keep their
privacy. So knowing their lawyers or their friends don't know that they looking for a new one or they open. Yeah, I guess this is always a challenge of recruitment. It's like for me, not even developers. Let's say I'm hiring for a new position, et cetera. And it's not tech related because everyone's trying to hire technology people, but that's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in like creative folks, let's say, or operations,
strategy. There's some people that I know that I would love to hire, but I'm not sure if they're available. Sometimes I have to message them and they're like, Oh, well, how now it's not a good time. Or maybe it is, but I have to like, I feel like I have to have like a personal CRM. I have to
know what everyone's up to. And then is it the right time? Is it the wrong time? But if there are passive ways to indicate interest, even if it might not lead to anything, people are willing to listen. Could be interesting. I think, especially from the developer point of view, only, only because there's such high demand for a very specific skill set engineering. It's very easy to,
if you know Python, if you're back in front end UI, UX, whatever it might be, it's a bit easier to classify. Exactly. So that's a good start to focus on. But also maybe let me add something here in that in channel, what I think I'm pretty sure about it is that everybody is somehow open for new opportunity, right? So even so, if someone is always currently happy with a current employer or with a current job, of course, everybody would be open to listen new opportunities in channel.
This is exactly what HADES provides for candidates. So it's interesting you mentioned that too, because people are always interested in new opportunities, but it's also to know what your worth is on the market. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So that's it for from the candidates point of view. But we also provide value for the client side, like you looking for a new engineer or like any credit. Traditionally, like people would think about a job, but to do job, you got to do post the job to multiple job boards, multiple JDs, multiple job boards, and pray or waiting for the CV, a regular CV and then screen it. So
you have to post it in multiple job boards to get the wire range of job boards and expose it to the right one eventually. So with HADES, with HADES, we reduce time piring by not skipping on three steps, like posting and praying on screening. You already access to the own pool open to work candidates. For example, you're looking for a senior engineer with not yet to go there and because they already claimed themselves in the system that they open. So we don't have go to the situation that, oh, I'm calling you, I'm calling them and then they said, oh, I'm not available. Yeah. So it's so powerful and the whole system can be shared to multiple or 10,000 clients. Yeah. Okay. Very good. Yeah. I think
distribution is one thing, making sure your job listing is everywhere, hoping somebody applies, but it's also the quality of the database. Yeah. That's the thing. And if the quality is not there and you're just hoping for a mass numbers, you can get a thousand applications, but you have to review a thousand to get one. Yeah. Exactly. What
if you can just review 10 and you get one? Exactly. And we will go on last year. Okay. Very good. Yeah. I think that's a definitely, that's not even just a technology solution and innovation, but it's also a mindset thing because I feel like in Vietnam, especially where everybody's trying to hire a developer, you're going back to what we're discussing earlier as well, knowing what you're worth. I think a lot of people don't know sometimes and I, there's a bigger conversation about like salary, transparencies, compensation, transparency. A lot of people just don't
know. And sometimes if you're in a database, you can keep up to date. Maybe you don't need to change jobs, right? Maybe you need to say that staying at the same one's better. Yeah. This
is also the benefit which we want to give to the candidates who are concentrating on our platform. One of the use piece is of course, know your worth. This is also one tech line, which we're having on our landing page. So they can basically do window shopping, right? So even if they're not really looking for new jobs, but they want to know at least what would other companies willing to pay for someone with their expertise just based on their profile, just based on a profile or what kind of companies are currently looking, because we're also having quite a lot of international companies already on our platform, which are using our platform, which are starting of hiring in Vietnam, but not having a legal entity in Vietnam yet, for example. So being registered as a candidate on our platform helps them, you know, not to limiting their opportunities in channel, but even getting a wider range of different opportunities from other companies as well. Daniel, I have a follow up question for you.
Yeah, sure. I'm a client. Okay. I'm doing a hypothetical situation right now. You have approached me as well. I'm not hiring engineers, so I'm not the best target for you. So Daniel, you're coming from the commercial and operation side and you yourself have been a recruiter. Maybe you can touch upon the advantages and some things that potential clients should know about why using HeyDev could lead to cost savings, more efficient hiring, if you can tap on that. Yeah, sure. And thanks very much. Very good
question. Basically, what we want to offer with HeyDev are high qualitative profiles with a very reasonable price. And that's why we also have not only flexible pricing options, but also different packages. So depending on the organizational
requirements in hiring, as mentioned with that, hopefully they can saving up to 80% of the costs in recruiting and how we facilitating it in the hiring process. So our system is designed that clients, they can very easily just creating a JD or even uploading HD and it gets automatically processing. And there's a very easy and simple filter function where they can using the filter function to finding the right candidate, which matching the JD or matching the requirements, then using the whole platform freely to reaching our contacting or chatting with the candidates, organizing and coordinating all the interviews with that. And then also having overview about the whole talent pipeline. So from each candidate and which stage of the recruiting process they are, because we also have our integrated small ATS system. So that means a small application
tracking system. So in the future, of course, we want to be all in one solution for everything. But we having everything in the backlog right now and working really intensively of improving with our platform with new features that.
So let me go back to what Mike was saying, that idea of active and passive applicants. I think that's a very good definition. I've never heard of that actually. But it makes a lot of
sense because people might be interested. They're not actively going to LinkedIn.com every day, maybe once a week at most and for different reasons for content, not for job listings.
But if there's a platform that could help deliver curated, useful content in a way, then people will listen. So very good. That's interesting. I want to move to the next question here, which is milestones and what you guys have achieved to date. I know you're a fairly new company. How long has it been, by the way? We started three months ago. Oh, three months ago. Okay. Very new. Yeah. By the time this podcast comes out, maybe three and a half months. I'd like to hear what those milestones have been achieved at the moment and what those next 12 months could look like as you expand outside of Vietnam too. So I'll have Mike kind
of take that first question. I think we had really aggressive timeline. I think even we met like three months ago. So I said, usually it would take a year to have everything on a software web app, mobile app for Kendrick site, web app for the client side, on a dashboard for the team, you know, the team. And we did it after three months. And the milestone we were looking at is
this year, 2023, we want to get like Ho Chi Minh, Hanoi and Danan. And next year, hopefully, like we can, you know, expand to Hoa Park after figuring out the recipe. Cool. So I think it's really powerful when we have a platform that you know, imagine the vision is, so you have platform that you can accept like all the kenex in different countries, like Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand, or Australia or something. So much powerful that you can build like one-stop HR hiring platform and payroll everything for any, and you can work anywhere. Okay. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. The global idea and potentially beyond developers at some point. Maybe. Yeah. Let's see. Daniel, you're more the commercial side, the operation side, it sounds like. How do you see that happening? Mike just
mentioned, we really want to own Vietnam, Danang, Ho Chi Minh, City, Hanoi. What is in your mind when Mike, you know, mentions that operationally and execution wise, how do you see that happening in terms of milestones? I can only agree 100% with Mike, to be honest. So of course, Mike, I, let's say this way from based on our experience, we are very aggressive with milestones in channel and we are used to working in high performance organization and we use the building high performance teams.
So that's why our milestones are very ambitious for quite a lot of people. They would say even unrealistic, but like mentioned three and a half months ago was the very first time we met. And in three months, we not only built up the web application, so the software, we're also having the mobile version on for Android and for iOS. We hired directly the sourcing team and sales team.
We are quite already for the soft launch already over 300 clients and over 50,000 candidates. 50,000? Yeah. 50,000. Right now, we are preparing for our hard launch, so our official launch, which will be on 17th of July, so next week, Monday. Basically, we are right now preparing already as well to conquer Vietnam first. And I think until the end of the year is even smooth. How many developers are in Vietnam? I'm wondering. 480,000.
And you have 50,000. Yeah. Amazing. But of course, the goal is having every, let's say in one, two years, the goal should be that when it comes to for developers, when they're looking for a new job or whatever, that they are definitely just using HeyDevs. So because for them, it's the easiest way of getting a new job or new opportunities.
Or up to eight, basically. Exactly. Okay. Very cool. Mike, this last question for you, then I have a general fun one for you guys to answer at the end as well. Is there any concluding message or exciting aspect that you'd like to emphasize about the product of HeyDevs that either a developer, you yourself or a developer, you hope to use this yourself, but also companies should take away from today's show? I would say, I want to emphasize again, we did it, but I emphasize again. I think from the
client side, it's most more effective and cost effective for them because by paying that subscription, they actually already acquired whole team sale, working for them every single day, the whole team sale. And they virtually held the whole marketing team doing on branding and also the team like building on values for the candidates so that we can build up the high quality pool of candidates. So what I'm saying, the high quality, because we need to have at least 95% of pool candidates truly open to work. And to do that, we have to reset on the open to work connected 30 days ago to a new mode, non open to work. And they have to turn it on again by three channel. Like we have like marketing team and the sale team and the value that we have in platform. Guys, thank you for sharing
all those insights about recruitment, about HR, about developers. If you're looking for to build a team of developers, either your company here in Vietnam or overseas, build a team in Vietnam first, reach out to these guys, HeyDevs, you guys obviously know a lot about this stuff, but there are a few things that you don't. So my last question that I always like to ask my guests on the show is what kind of topics and industries would you two like to know more about that makes your jobs a bit easier? Perhaps you're just curious about Sir, for instance, my guest the other week, I asked her the same question and she mentioned that she really wants to know more about sustainability. She feels like this industry, she doesn't know anything about it. But maybe she'll sound a little bit smarter at the next cocktail party if she knew something about this.
So first question is over to Daniel and then Mike, same question to you. Definitely. Sustainability, how far Vietnam is. So basically the same topic which your friend for last week also mentioned. Why is that is, of course, I see that we here in Vietnam, we have quite a lot of waste for plastic, right? Me as a European and especially German citizen. And we are very caring much about the environment and sustainable resources as well. And it hurts myself to see right now when I'm walking down the beach here in Wung Tao or even Danang that seeing such much waste and rubbish on the beach where we should swim and in showing our free time and relaxing, right? But relaxing beside rubbish and trash, it's not that, you know, it's not that great. And of course, I would love to
know more about this topic, how far the Vietnamese mindset and channel is also regarding that and what alternatives or solutions are right now in the pipe in order to, you know, to change the Vietnamese mindset to taking care more about the environment. Amazing. I would have to agree. I'm very curious about that myself. And, you know, if I were to
give you the short answer, a lot of people are curious, but not enough answers. Yeah, but a lot of answers are coming. So that's my short answer. Same over to you, Mike. You know, you've built some companies, you're an engineer yourself, you know all about tech, you know, a lot of people have been mentioning on my show, they'd love to know more about generative AI, for instance, are there experts in Vietnam about this topic? Anyways, aside from that, what would you like to know more about that can help you become a better, effective entrepreneur? Well, I always held a keen interest in three different areas like Singapore, like real estate, finance, blockchain, and recurring. So any of those three things. Okay, very good.
Yeah, I think those are three super popular trending topics in Vietnam right now, particularly the blockchain one. Like just last week, they had a good morning Vietnam event here, a global one, it was really impressive to see Vietnam is the global epicenter in a lot of ways of this particular industry. Real estate, I think we all know what's going here on here in Vietnam right now, a lot of people are asking questions, I don't have an answer, but I think someone else does out there, so we'll hope to have them on the show very soon. Mike, Daniel, thank you so much for being on today's program in Vietnam innovators, it's been a pleasure to learn about all things tech, developers, recruiting, which the best to get that from that 50,000 to 480,000 in Vietnam over the next one or two years. Thank you so much for being on today's show. Audience, I hope you
enjoyed today's program. If you're looking to hire developers or you are a developer, check out HeyDevs, you can also message Mike or Daniel on LinkedIn, I'm sure they'd be happy to hear from you. Until next time, see you guys, bye bye. [Music]