Closing Session - Europe's Open Source Opportunities

Closing Session - Europe's Open Source Opportunities

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[Music] foreign [Music]   so yeah last year the summit focused on challenges  now we've sat through a long day with a packed   program focusing on opportunities and some  challenges as well kind of crept in there but   with this closing session let's try to synthesize  see what we can get out of this maybe formulas for   formulas a policy recommendation or two and then  before we send you off to fostom of course hands   on cocktails but let me introduce the people who  will help me do this so it's Hillary Carter from   the Linux Foundation sachikomoto from ofe and the  research Institutes of Sweden Frederick Svenson of   red pill impro Andreas Gauger of open exchange and  here's the tricky one Michael Maximilian or Max   of IBM so we'll get going straight away sachiko  in your view what is an open source opportunity   all right um well first let me just say that I  think it was genius that you at least scheduled   cocktails for after this session so you know  we're in between you and the cocktails but at   least there are Cocktails so people are  are still here some some of you at least   um okay that's a that's a nice little question  Astor um I think you know we and also your   introduction to the session because we had a  little prep call or a prep meeting before this   and I think we all started sort of striking  out our our notes our speaking notes because   we realized that there would be no chance of  providing any sort of fresh content at this   point but you know well we'll see uh I had planned  to mention the study which has been mentioned a   few times already so that should have been struck  out but talking about an opportunity um that's a   really broad question but I think it's about you  know seeing that there's value in something but   then also that there's an untapped potential and I  just sitting here today I was thinking about okay   let's let's look at this Automotive panel that's  going to be really exciting as a sort of way to   illustrate you know the the opportunity for for  open source and and I really realized that you   know it is both something that can illustrate a  value that's already happening but also indeed   um the the opportunity that's still there because  there are some challenges to still be to sort of   be overcome still um I think um but about that and  really illustrating how sort of um competitors can   come together in a sector and really collaborate  uh and focus on sort of uh innovate quickly and   and and and and and focus the resources on sort  of the top Innovative layer I think that's really   the opportunity and we saw one sector but there  there are so many other sectors we can be talking   about and and Hillary mentioned you know when we  had that little conversation beforehand sort of   you know the the entertainment industry the movie  industry for example the the fashion industry uh   you know and I think it opens some some eyes here  as well because it kind of goes beyond what we   are normally focusing on so and then really the  opportunity it's for the public sector I think   this is something that we've been talking about  for years um it's about sort of it's it's time   for the public sector to also benefit from from  from this way of innovating that's sort of already   winning I guess in in you know in the industry and  so maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that   uh later on in the tunnel yeah and Hillary good  perfect segue they they're mentioning Hillary   um last year you led the publication of the report  uh the world of Open Source Europe spotlight 2022.   with this analysis in mind and what  you've heard here today um what stands   out for you as Europe's biggest open source  opportunity you can of course pay more than one   indeed and there are many and thank you  Esther and thank you sachiko and everyone here   um especially open Forum Europe for supporting  our research and being a partner and allowing   us to have a data-driven approach to how  we view open source and the opportunity   and what I love about the research process is  it identifies gaps and so we have a chance to   fill them and that's why I'm so excited about  where we can go from here excuse me and one of   the areas that our research identified was that  Europe was not fully realizing the value of Open   Source in particular certain sectors certain  countries lagging behind others and most of   the small and medium-sized Enterprises were not  taking advantage of the open source opportunity   apart from the industry-level collaboration  and new industries that as they are becoming more um software defined they're  capitalizing on the opportunity   but what I am most excited about is  the possibility for the public sector   as sachiko mentioned to deliver citizen  services at lower cost and be a model user   of this technological gift which is how we tend  to see it and when we can realize that vision and   you know covid was a terrific example of here  is a pressing need around credentials and and   health or whether it's Customs and Border control  or whether it's any other kind of citizen service   the opportunity to develop cost-effective trusted  digital solutions that create efficiencies and add   so much value and allow Europe to get on with  the business of innovating instead of waiting   in Long digital lineups or waiting for things  that should be efficient but are not that is the   tremendous opportunity whether it's a regulatory  opportunity or a public sector opportunity   uh I think that's where your has the most to  gain it's not businesses were mentioned and so   we're turning over to Frederick and Andreas  and annoyingly enough I'll give you a joint   question so you kind of will have to decide  who answers first um so moving away from The   Innovation model itself and the opportunities  that comes from that what would you say is the   state of the European open source industry what  opportunities do we see in terms of innovation   new jobs economic growth growing your companies  is it a good time to be an open source company   wow that's a large question uh first of all I  would like to sort of summarize what's been said   already today there are lots of opportunities  with open source software and open code many of   them have already been been mentioned but I would  like to emphasize again that talking about digital   sovereignty for instance I would like to say well  I'd like to think that the open source is the   solution to that uh I mean with open source open  code you can choose how to deploy the software   you can make sure that your GDP are compliant and  all the stuff that comes with that but furthermore   open source also creates uh an option to invest  in software building software creation in Europe   and I also think it makes it possible to create a  lively and productive software community in Europe   that will enable both sort of innovation today but  also future Innovation because if investments in   digitization if they stay that money stays in  Europe that creates a foundation for further   investment and further innovation and to your  question asked all it is a good time to be an open   source company in in in Europe today uh there's a  lot of requests for for competence and knowledge   and uh as a open source system integrator company  we are making sure that if there is demand there   will also be supply for experienced and talented  developers working with open source software   yeah I can only agree it is much easier to attract  Talent if you have an open source background so if   you are on the positive side of karma for sure  but we also shouldn't forget that there is large   companies dominating big parts of this industry  and the only way I see how Europe can kind of   get back on track and be competitive with that  is open source like collaborating um openness   speed innovation that comes out from  open source and and the only things   that break monopolies are governments  technical disruption and open source so max now I'm trying to go through the full  panel with annoyingly big and difficult questions   but so Frederick and Andreas talked  about the business opportunities   now let's pivot back to the technology um what is the role of Open Source today  would you say in the development of like   tomorrow's Technologies you're  involved in these things yes so obviously a very broad question as you said  I'll start by maybe um quoting a famous European   um you know who said that if you could only see  further than most people and it's because he   was standing on the shoulders of giants he just  happens to be on an island of Europe but anyway   we all know Isaac Newton's famous quote I think it  sort of summarizes for me what open source brings   which is that it brings a foundation that you can  build on top and it's a foundation you don't want   to recreate so as example of this I'll give  you three different examples one in the past   that I experienced one in the present that I'm  experiencing and one I believe that's gonna come   or it's coming in the future so in the past a  lot of you probably old enough to remember when   USB or Universal zero bus came about so all  those devices that you plug into your laptops   um there was a time when these were new and  in order for you to use most of those devices   that would come like cameras mice Etc you had  to have a driver and you had to wait for the   operating system that you were using to have  the right driver Etc and it would take time   and you could buy a device and then you couldn't  use it like especially hard drives for instance   and what I remember at the time we were coming  up at IBM with new devices and I needed to have   those working on machines and very quickly we  were able to build those because we built our   Solution on Linux and why did that work is  because we had access to the code and Linux   had an initial driver for USB and you could come  in and bring your own device and could the driver   for USB so this is an example of how open source  allows you to create Innovation very quickly you   don't have to wait for the next release of the  operating system which would usually take like   two years before USB was available for it so  that's one example in the past in the present   an example of this is cloud if you're gonna  build anything related to Cloud right now it'd   be foolish almost crazy to think that you could  build your own stack you just go and use what   exists right now which is a Linux kubernetes stack  and it's a huge amount of code that works it not   only works it works at scale so if you're going to  build something for the cloud build on top of that   and then the last thing I'll mention is that  now I'm one of my mission is open quantum   if you want to play in that field you want to  start adding you know experiment with quantum   computers you're going to build it with an open  stack not only for the cloud but also for instance   with kiskit which is an open source toolkit  build using python and then Chasm which is an   open source definition of how to actually talk to  those quantum computers so I think the basic thing   is if you think you're smart enough and you can  build your own code and build it fast enough to   release it in time then I've added or use what  exists that works and is stable so that's the   future is open source I just don't see any other  way if you want to do it in the time that we think   I mean so but then I'm thinking we're we're  here it's an open Forum Europe event we have   a panel we're more or less concluded that open  source is pretty good but so I'm trying to think   not the greatest that's the quote for from  this event right open source it's pretty good   but so let's try to identify and get to like  some policy changes needed like what can we do   and as I see it and I'm trying to like summarize  well kind of off the top of my head but I've also   taken some notes from today um firstly it will be  important for us to safeguard uh The Innovation   model and make sure that open source maintain  you know stays frictionless right secondly   there's policy aimed at allowing the European open  source software industry to grow we will need that   capacity to have that capacity in the industry  to meet and realize these opportunities and then   thirdly I think there is a need of policies  or even regulation that lowers the barriers   for open alternatives to compete I think these  are kind of three the main groupings of policy   approaches if we're talking about uh especially  let's say the European Union what could be done   but so to make this a bit more concrete and I'm  the questions are not going to get easier Andreas   if you were to advise a government and  I mean the national government uh how   um they should approach creating a national  strategy for open source and this is for a   nation not a city nor a company not an industry  the country how should they go about it what   should the goals be oh that's an easy question  yeah so I would say first of all you know I think   one of the main goals for any government should  be that data civil energy is actually happening   and so the opposite of sovereignty is dependency  so first thing I would say is make sure that all   the important parts of your infrastructure are  not depending on one single whatever company   or something right it should be interchangeable  there should be minimum two options for anything   so that you can kind of move on decide you  know dependent if something goes wrong if   one of the things doesn't work anymore there  should be another thing that can replace it   and then secondly make especially for smaller  companies and open source companies tend to   be smaller than the big ones right there are  some exceptions um make a stable playing field   decide for standards don't create standards decide  for existing ones right only in the if you can't   do other create one but there's plenty there so  decide for standards cement them that people can   rely on them building stuff based on them and  also Force anyone in the market to support them   and then thirdly don't only listen to companies or organizations there is two target groups  you should also talk to and the first and   most important is developers right  developers can easily tell you if a   standard or anything you want to do regarding  to your infrastructure it makes sense or not   much more direct and much more easy than any  kind of like people that have an agenda and   typically companies tend to be tend to have a very  strong agenda so not a good source for information   and also users you know once  you have built something   and you're proud of it be only part of it if the  users that have to use it are happy with it it's   also very suddenly done especially before release  so yeah I think these little three rules would be   super helpful I know it's very pragmatic but I'm  a pragmatic guy yeah Frederick yeah can you find   if I may add to that I think trying to raise it  up a level as you said so we have concluded that   open source is pretty good so I would say if I was  in a country or a national agency or even the EU I   would Implement a policy that says that you should  always evaluate open source projects or software   before you make a purchasing decision and if there  is a viable open source project out there always   choose that and thirdly all publicly financed or  funded development should always be open source   and you should be able to reuse it for other  organizations that are also public and I think   it's on the fifth on my list now uh create the  space where all the publicly funded development   can be shared with others those are five bullets  that I would like to send with an include in the   National or EU policy and then lastly make it easy  to buy Services related to open source software so   create like a framework agreement that are either  influenced by open source or where you include   vendors that can help you with open source based  Solutions and services that makes it easy for   public sector organizations primarily to O to use  and to buy Services related open source I think   those things will make it easier for public sector  organizations put in the EU to buy and use open   source software and related services Hillary  looks like you want to say something I would   almost as a phenomenalist Frederick I would add  if I were advising government and Canada I have   Irish citizens so I would approach government of  Ireland first and foremost is requiring um open   source development skills training earlier in the  education system so that Europe has a Workforce   that is skilled for the digital economy  for the open source software infrastructure   because as my colleague would say and I heard  Gail Blundell from Eclipse Foundation saying   we have to raise our um skills and our communities  and our our talent pools we cannot hire our way   out of the digital transformation imperative  we must raise the skill level uh among our   citizens so I would add that educational  component as being Baseline and start earlier   and I feel didn't the Deputy Prime Minister say  that 2023 is the year of skills let's add it yeah   yeah but such a cool I see you want to say  something but I've formulate it as a question and   then you can take it as you want I'll say whatever  I was planning to say anyway yes exactly but so   this is also Andreas as an organization with  an agenda so I hope you will listen to some   of the information that we have to say as offe  and such a good you know we feel really well   we have worked for 20 years to level the  playing field for open source Alternatives   but here we are still how would you say  uh what is the state of play for like   the the Alternatives that  is the playing field level so this is when I okay so well 20 years  you said I've been there for for 15 of   those years and you know to some extent you  know it's clear that things have a lot of   things have changed right and so um and at  of has also come a long way and asked our   um congratulations on on the event I think it's  been really great Paola of course also but and the   rest of the team but I think that you know that's  a reflection also of how far you know open sources   come and we have kind of grown alongside of that  but I think one thing that hasn't changed you know   um open source is eating the world open source  has one all of that but it struck me that one   conversation where we haven't moved uh very much  is actually on procurement and you didn't say   you know you didn't use the words procurement but  that's what you're what you're talking about and I   think this has been it's an it's I really think  that we need to make some progress there but at   the same time I don't want to say that we haven't  made progress because indeed we heard from the   Deputy Prime Minister and after that in the public  sector panel actually some important practical you   know projects uh that are moving forward and  I think it's important there that that we sort   of you know what they said also in that panel like  let's let's build on each other's experience let's   um sort of share between governments experiences  and things like that and I think I'm hoping you   know you had an ambitious list there um I do  hope that the interoperable Europe act which   introduces some it's not just words because that  was one thing that was also deployed I think by   some some speakers in uh in previous panels  that you know we've had some very positive   ministerial declarations you know like there's  the talent declaration there's the brilliant   declaration you know all these declarations  and where it's easier to just to celebrate like   oh now it's going to be like open by default or  something like that all the ministers have signed   um you know it's it's um the interoperable  Europe act does propose some specific sort of   first structures but also things like an agenda  you know an interoperable Europe agenda where   we're going to hopefully see at the European  level um uh you know a listing of priorities   of this sort of the type of interoperable uh in  e-government solutions that are needed and even   it proposes the possibility of develop helping  some of these Technologies at the European level   and I really foresee like if this could work  like that you know opportunities also for for   um European smes to work at sort of the regional  or local or national level to sort of help   governments further develop and and customize  those shared Solutions and then also being able   to sort of bring that back to to to Europe um yeah  so I mean I'm not sure that to answer the question   but it was more or less what I wanted to say so  and here uh Max I'm gonna put you on the spot yeah   um simply following andreas's recommendation  we should talk more to the developers   um what do you think uh what is your take then  any reactions on the things that are coming from   very much the developer's point of view what would  you be looking for yeah so I guess as a developer   the thing I would tell people is that well two  two things so first is building software is hard   um what I mean by this is you can all build very  trivial piece of software right it's you know   everybody goes to a class you take a class  you can build stuff you know simple things   uh but that doesn't matter right building large  piece of software is very hard and building it   so that it scales is even harder what do I mean  by this if you just go by the fact that the code   has to be written sort of like a language  you're writing a novel and you have to type   it right so you think okay let's say we're going  to build you know a cloud software and you think   okay how how much code is that something like  kubernetes is in the millions of lines of code   and it scales and that's why so if you were  to build it with a team imagine how long it   would just take to type and that's not even  a team that knows what they're doing just to   type it you can see how long it would take  now that just to create it once you have   the software created it has to scale so you  now have to think about how do you scale it   and that's just the beginning of it  because you also have to maintain it   so as developers there's a series of things  you have to do and maintenance is dealing with   security like where the previous panel was talking  about and those things come up all the time   so as a developer that's what we need right is is  the whole life cycle is dealing with the creation   the getting it to work so it's correct testing it  then scaling it then it's in the public hand and   you have to essentially now maintain it all of  that takes time when you're in a community when   you have a community around the software such  as an open source it makes a lot it makes it a   lot easier to deal with all these steps and  I think that's the key is that as Developers   building that Community being part of a community  helps and open source makes it much better than   if you have it in private organization I've  worked in both and I can tell you it's a lot   more fun less stress and a lot easier to to have  a community and the last thing I would say is that   I hate to tell you this um they are  usually smarter people that are not working   in your organization except for our  organization that's that's just the way it is   and I've seen it repeated over and over  again and they come from all over the world   so you know when you have open source  you can hopefully tap into that   but then it feels like I'm trying to like we've  everyone seems to come back in one way or another   to this kind of skills competence like having a  scaled Workforce question and I'm going to see   if I can force that into the last question here  and then it will be open up for reactions but   so Andreas and Frederick I'll start with you  again because I do talk quite often to open source   entrepreneurs business owners Etc and my earlier  question was quite leading about like how is it to   be because it be an open source entrepreneur today  because when I talk to them they're very busy   there's quite some demand and you know meeting  the demand is a challenge but it's there   um and for the kind of opportunities and  the promises that we have listed here today   we would need quite a lot to meet those so can  the industry meet This Promise This demand are   you ready yeah if GPT so they will do all the  development for me I I heard I guess I don't know no it's difficult certainly but I I think if  you're a smaller company and you have a positive   Karma open source agenda it's much more easy to  find people and for large companies with maybe   a negative Karma agenda so so there this is not  our major problem our major problem is still that   it's quite tricky to make money with open source  I know we are all growing and it works somehow   but it's trickier much trickier than just being  the only one who can supply it and putting a price   tag on it if you innovate there's people that  download it and just use it do you mean that it's   a lot easier to kind of have a monopoly position  than being exposed to a lot of competition   a monopoly position is um the easiest there  is right and but but also you know you   can create a product and and build you're  Innovative you have an Innovative product   and you are the only one who is supplying  it it's much easier to make money with it   then you have an open source project or you  make it open source and then there's a whole   ecosystem that uses it for free and there's  other companies that use that they give   money with it it's just more difficult I'm not  saying it's impossible but it's more difficult   so that is something all open source company  think about day in day out I can promise you that   yeah it sounds like open source companies  are exposed to a lot of competition   but usually you're pretty good Frederick yeah  from my perspective I'm representing an open   source uh Solutions provider or systems integrator  and as from my perspective open source has always   attracted top talent so we have really skilled  people working for us and of course they can share   their skills with uh ambitious and eager people  to learn so I think that's one way of approaching   the issue making sure that we have a program to  sort of skill up people and to further expand the   workforce that way another way we do that we do  here in Europe is that we incorporate cooperate   with our peers there are other companies my  company's based in Auto Scandinavia we have   other companies based out of Germany France and  so forth and and we do have a collaboration with   them so we collaborate and we learn from each  other and if we need to scale a project in   Scandinavia I know who to turn to and I'm hoping  that my peers in France and Germany also know that   they can turn to me for assistance if they need to  scale up for projects is there any kind of public   policy legal framework or something that could  improve and help and increase that collaboration   this is yeah really putting you on the spot  here yeah no matter but I think I have an   answer to that I think I also mentioned that I  mean um it would make our life easier if there   was like a framework agreement in place or that  made it easier for a public sector organizations   to start with when they want to purchase  Services related to open source software   definitely so if there is a framework agreement in  place that is either influenced by the willingness   to use open source software or even implies that  you need to use open source software that would   make it easy for public sector organizations  to purchase the services they require   well it's good that I'm thinking like you know  reading the The Archives of ofe over the last   20 years in some ways everything is different  and in some ways everything is still the same   so it's good I have French yeah yeah and I have  things to do for the next coming years it seems   like we haven't solved everything but just uh  I'm thinking now I'm just improvising here but   just some last words from each one of you and make  them positive and energetic so we have something   inspiring to talk about during the the uh the  cocktail Hillary first that's easy ah thank you my   favorite idea is this notion of  leadership and who will lead us   to where we need to go who is the special  person from an industry from a non-governmental   organization who will rally the leaders and  the change makers because I think my theory of   digital transformation is one of leadership but  it comes down to people who are willing to take   a career bet and have the courage of their  convictions and that's what I think is going   to be the magical formula that helps build  out the open source opportunity in Europe   is that you go no preparation just asking me to  be upbeat you know there are a couple of people   who said that their half was it glass half full  and then Katarina she said she's optimistic person   um I think it like I said I I think there are some  very positive messages today I think we should go   back and listen to the to the opening sort of  keynote as well because I think there are a lot   of a lot of good things in there I didn't have a  chance to get back to you on the skills thing I   think it is important and I think it's important  to some of the things that came out of here is   that you know the developers the top talent  they want they prefer to work on open source   and I think that's important for Europe if we  want to to attract and keep the top talent uh I   think it was Mirko that said You know open source  reduces redundant effort you know nobody wants   to be doing redundant effort you know and I think  Max you you kind of elaborated on this a lot and I   think that's really powerful and you know I think  often in Europe we talk also about not wanting to   be like we wanted to we want to be at The Cutting  Edge and really that's what you know open source   provides the opportunity for and often we see  27 replications Frederick yes so this panel is   about the opportunities with open source and there  are many opportunities of course but I think my   favorite one is to use open source to fuel Lively  and productive uh software creation community   in Europe let's make sure that Tech Innovation  happens here all both now but also in the future   and I think that's the sort of main opportunity  for us living in Europe with open source thank you for taking mine away are successful because they collaborate right that is one of the  main reasons why they are so so successful and   um open source is a very successful form  of collaboration right like worldwide   the diverse no borders do you think  there's a better ex anything that is   actually better than open source when it  comes to collaboration I don't think so   so we are spearheading the future  of humanity let's say like that [Applause] how do I follow this well maybe I'll give I'll add to it by  giving you uh some very specific examples so   the last work that I did now I'm engaging into  open Quantum but the last work that I did was in   key native which is a layer on top of kubernetes  to make it serverless so that started at Google   and I believe Google in Seattle mostly American  engineers then voice group started being involved   especially red hat in Germany then more folks  from the US but there's also quite a bit of   collaboration right before the pandemic from China  we had lots of engineers in China adding to it   and then now you have folks from Japan doing big  contribution to it and then also more of the rest   of Europe so in other words exactly what you said  is that it's a human endeavor and I'm seeing more   and more contribution coming also from different  parts of the world that you haven't seen in the   past like for instance from Africa and that's  the beauty of Open Source is that it opens it   up from the rest of the world and you get people  that are contributing from places that you would   never expect because they want to use it and  we have a stock Channel and there are people   responding and you have GitHub issues that you  can open and people can discuss so really the   only thing you need to kind of know is to be  able to speak English a little bit that's it   yeah I guess that's all we all know that top  talent is out there and often and not in the   groups that you think it's going to be and  that they're just all over the place but   then I guess also just now of course I'm hijacking  the end here because I'm the session leader but   um I want to thank all of you for joining but  before I get off stage because I know that I'm   keeping you from going to the cocktail I really  want to thank the ofv team for putting everything   and all of this together and especially Paula  before I get off stage they spend eight hours   or something like that moderating thank you very  much and thank you for joining and now I think   Paula has some final words and then I'll meet  you out there for a drink bye everyone [Applause]   sir thank you everyone I was really thinking what  to say at the end I took so many notes but to   be honest just this quote we are spearheading  the future of humanity I think this is a good   start for the cocktails um but having said  that thank you very much for coming thank   you to all the speakers for sharing your  insights with us I think we have a lot of   food for thought uh I hope that you're coming  to fasten take a look especially at the legal   and policy track we will be there just hanging  out so let's see each other uh but I want to   say thank you to ofe team to the tech team  here on site uh yeah he hosted us very well probably in a larger group let's  see let's see how we do it and   for how long see you there and  enjoy the cocktail [Applause]

2023-02-16 03:56

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