Beyond borders: The space industry and technology of the future
Um Hi, everyone. Good morning. Welcome back to the house. My name is Henry Brussels Bureau chief for the Financial Times. Pleasure back here again. We're going to talk about space this morning and it's off. We have a message from very important astronaut. Stronger about Smith than I relish without further ado. Let's listen as well.
Good morning, everyone and welcome to three CS Hub in Davos, organized by the Polish Development Bank, together with Atlantic Council Unfortunately, I am not able to join the panel discussion this year as I am currently in the United States. Attending a launch of Axiom mission towards the international space Station on both which There is my colleague, my Swedish colleague from the ESA astronaut selection of 2022. This also shows how dynamically the global space sector is evolving and I am proud to be able to watch one of my fellow astronauts launching just over one year after his selection. The title of Today's discussion is beyond borders, the space industry and technology of the future. With my education and my professional experience running over four countries in Europe. I truly believe that science transcends borders and that international collaborations provide a common goal to look into the future together. Beyond doubt. Space is one of the
fastest growing branches of the industry towards which future economies are evolving. All space sessions as one of key priorities of the World Economic Forum are the best testimony for that. I would like to warmly welcome all Panelists of today's session.
We are honored to have with us, the director general of the European Space Agency, Dr Joseph Ash, Baher. His presence shows the importance of central and Eastern European economies in shaping the future of the European space sector. Within the past 15 years, multiple countries of the central and eastern Europe joined the European Space Agency. Together with ECE economies, and these countries have big aspirations in developing technologies of the future. Poland joint ECE in 2011 and more or less. At the same time, the Polish private sector private
space sector started its activity. After over 10 years of development, we can mention a couple of amazing success stories, which examples we can see in today's panel. Pisa has very ambitious programs for the next decades to come. To mention some human and robotic exploration missions as well as contributing with space technology towards the future of European society. I am confident That common science projects will unite Europe and will inspired talented young people to pursue their careers in technology and science. I wish you all right discussions resulting in future projects as well as an amazing time in this beautiful place in the Swiss Alps.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, and an excellent production. Introduce the Panelist, and then we'll begin the discussion. Um,
has already introduced upstaged by nationals already. Parker is the director general. Thank you so much for being this next to him. Is raffling would risky. He's the chief executive officer of the eye, right? Um Adam Novinsky is the co founder and managing partner Ventures. Thank you So much today is vice President for strategy and Business development Martin much by no Means least.
Wolinsky, who founded in Chief executive officer and also remember program Committee of the Polish space. Agency. Um this is a really interesting panel. It's something that I am very keen to learn about. I wonder if you could start just could you put the sort of the industry and the three C's region in the global context? Where are we? Where were we before? And where do we want to get to Thank you And very nice. Good morning. Also for my side, happy to be here in this, uh, three cc's meeting, which is really quite an important meeting. But let me just pick up on
her visa was saying a minute ago. As you know his colleague Marcus launched today to the space station on the lighter. By the basics where we have agreement on one side with the Sweden on the other side, with axiom to be able to fly what we call a reservist announce, and Marcos is one of these from Sweden. And also you have just seen here on screen. Another culture. Just another
visa will be the next in line to fly. Do the space station. So this is a very important moment. Space is so important for many disciplines of the economy. Let me just start with the vote, which which is not
mine. But I would like to give all the credit to the one who said it because that's somehow symbolizes how space is to be seen in many levels of the economy and the society last year, actually, here in Davos, uh, was invited to the panel. Leaving England by organized by it. I can say it because he allowed me to mention his name by McKinsey has organized similar didn't debate strong energy on the pharmaceutical, some country ports and other domains of the economy, and one of them was on space and he invited me on it. I was invited to speak. Get in there Pendulum based economy advice basis for a future domain for many economic development, and so I spoke there and CEO of McKinsey comes boxed own fields, and I asked him Look, I said, I'm very happy that you organized a panel of space. But why
can you tell me why you choose space is one of the main, said Joseph. I've done my homework. Um, I have analyzed within our company and we see thousands of companies and we advise them on their future development. We have analyzed them and I think I think for have analyzed and I know that space is our future closed domain for many sectors, not the space sector. But many sectors of the economy, Pharmaceuticals medical Energy and so on. And he said, What I'm doing is when I go to meet
the CEOs of big companies in China and Shanghai in Africa and Europe in the west to another country's I provoke them. Look. Are you using space in your pharmaceutical company or in your tourism company and usually be receptive space? What should I do with space? I mean, looking and pharmaceuticals has nothing to do with space. And he said, Look, I have to work. You could do this and that And then he sits down with his people and And they realized yes, sir. If I'm not using space for the future, nobody cannot compete with companies in five years or 10 years from now, he said. I have a lot of evidence that many segments are completely under utilizing space today in their domains. Nothing applies to
the three CS countries. These countries have to say. I'd like to thank Poland for having been waking up to the reality of this potential massively invested in space, thanks. Also to a slasher with a good ambassador for space in the country is not only important Poland, but I think he's reaches much wider but recognized importance really appreciated investments. They have made major contributions to the other domains. And I think this is something I would like to leave. That actually message to the three C's debate that space of the future growing domain economic prospects of very good going from 460 billion You just told us the size of the space, According to data one trillion in the next decade, there's a lot of potential and we should use it widely in the three countries and Teresa's context. That's a future domain. I think these countries can particularly
investing opportunities. Thank you so much you've found and launched 11 of the most successful and if I may say so professional center coolest space companies in the three C's region could you talk a bit about that personal experience of yours as somebody who was doing this before? Perhaps it became so mainstream I mean, the opportunities that you saw the challenges that were along the road. I mean, could you talk a bit about that and understand what it's like to launch from these companies in the region? Of course. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you very much for coming to this panel so early in the morning, and yes, you may say so. It
is the clearest so look. I think we can take this story back 12 years which doesnt 22 23 4 east right now, And then we started icing basically around two dozen intended doesn't 12 Back then The whole idea of commercial space was quite new, especially the whole idea of what we call today. A new space, which is which is space being Sort of engaged with smaller, smaller players, players that have not done this players that don't have so much government backing and I remember, you know, back in those days, the whole industry really emerged out of the universities, University students that decided that things can be done differently, decided that things can be done the smaller way in a way, which is which is faster and less expensive, and it's going to not be as much better as it's going to be different, and it's going to be It will augment whatever we have in existence today. And those students myself among them my cough 100, Pecker decided that it will venture into the unknown of little bit and try to convince others that indeed you can space not only his exploration of Mars or explanation of months of Jupiter, but also it's something that we can use them in our everyday decision making in our everyday lives, and there is way to create businesses that are financial around this particular domain of industry. I think the early days were very difficult, um, decade ago, you know, I'm very glad to be part of this discussion. I'm very glad that there are so many space related discussions here in Devil's because it shows how large of elite we have made over the last decade. But I can tell, you know, people have been asking
me back then why on earth would you try to set up a startup around space? Um, it's impossible. Nobody is going to finance it. It's so capital intensive. It's only possible for large established enterprises that have The government's behind them like Airbus or Boeing. And
you shouldn't really even try, and I think I'm really glad that we We kept them going and we persevered. And actually, I'm happy to be speaking on this panel with Adam Adam is one of our early backers, and so is his end. And I think you know, back in those days we have managed ultimately to collect a small, relatively small group of early early believers have propelled many of us myself included. Forward, Um and then allows us to go for those technical times. You know? How was it 10 years ago 10 years ago, nobody believed that is really going to be an industry that we should care about. I think that you know, I would like to say that today this has fully changed.
I think it's changed a little bit, but there is still quite a path ahead of us. Thank you so much interesting, he said. When, when, when? When you started to do that sounds crazy. Nobody would finance you. Somebody did find out what? Why were you so crazy to finance him? I mean, it's a chicken and egg. The start of the industry financing also
is nervous about. It also is wondering about what the growth has that changed in the last 10 years. Ah, so again thanks for having me day and just answer your question. So, yes, you know, like we we we We had a pleasure and honor to get to know something like Probably seven years ago now. Um, sorry it was, you know, like, uh, 1016 17 hours, whatever. Quite some time ago, so,
so anyways, you know, like we we, Metropole. And if I say you know, like, what would be the main reason was his belief and his enthusiasm so He was so passionate about it. It was so convinced that he's gonna make it. Ah, um, that didn't help us to my mind this decision and and yes, it wasn't easy at that time for us was, you know one of the largest investments in the beginning of the finding space steak. Ah! Um, but, um, but we felt that if there was anyone who's gonna make it, it's going to be actually ruffle and we were not wrong.
But this is I would say that, um This is the way you invest in BC. You need to find people. We are going to deliver against or also because there's nothing like a smooth ride of a startup. There's nothing like a start of just nothing like that, like the E, Unfortunately, fortunately, It just doesn't happen. So you need to
bag does who are visionaries but also capable of delivering an excuse it. But the question you know, like the environment has changed substantially over the last six years. So six years ago, investing in space was, you know, like being order. Kind of, you know, like crazy today. Money is flowing like, really. Trump from different sources from private investors from corporate investors. Industry is drawn DD that's trees growing, probably 9 to 10% year over year, and it's always a sizable like if you look at some of the statistics is probably already like $500 billion, so it is a sizable investment sizable industry.
For many, the simply don't see that because I don't watch, you know, like the launch of a rocket and TV and you know what? That's cool. But then many of those assets are either you know, like, in space or hidden somewhere in the ground, but not really in the main in the center of the city, so and then, if you use those technologies very often you don't really recognize you're using them. And of course, you know, like GPS sort of satellite communication would be something obviously, days. Referring to what Dr Joseph said. Like Actually many, many industries start to use that. Unfortunately, not all of these deals with the corporate are treating this seriously.
But more and more are pharmaceutical industry. This is this is gonna be big. This is growing. This is growing dynamically in space manufacturing. And, of course, you know, like the beginning of sounds a bit crazy. It's actually happening. Correct. Quite pleased to hear that. Making
things very interesting hearing. I mean, obviously Lockheed U S company. When people think of space they think of NASA. The US sort of Moved to the top of the market when he looks at three Cities region thinks about space. Where do you
see it in the global picture? That's a great question, and I'll just say Joseph and I hear a lot of backgrounds. I spent 27 years of my life in NASA. Um and so I have a deep love and they haven't worked on the civilian agency and now with interesting seeing how space is changing our lives, and I think there's a few elements that are really important. Adam touched on a couple of them.
Um, space actually helps us in our daily lives on Earth. It's not just about understanding the origins of the universe or understanding the you know where we can explore different plaintiffs to see if we can have it. Take them one day, but it actually improves their daily lives. And so, for example, the global Positioning system or Billion users worldwide depend on the global positioning system, Things like navigation, timing of financial transactions and related Economic impact. The global Positioning system is over $300 billion a year. It's improving how we do things. And so when you think about
it, I tend to take a space and kind of three realms. One is how we connect. So we connect people and through the Internet, for example, we use commercial civil Internet. We also have Com systems that protect I sometimes have conflict they protected, you know, to make sure that they stay connected to systems and applications. We also protect people. And so if you think about whether systems today well, there
goes another satellites that are actually operating his face. Give us early morning of weather. They tell us of a disastrous events, Things like wildfires that we're working on, or even just massive storms That will come. That will impact us. If you just look back 100 years ago, we didn't have any of that. Right. So we help protect citizens through space. And we also provide you know. Military constructs early morning early missile warning systems. Intelligence
surveillance, reconnaissance systems, things that nature and then we explore much more on the civil side to understand the realms of the universe and things like that. What do we think about these regions? In particular, We've seen the conflict in Ukraine. We understand that the tragic events that's occurring there. But if you look at how space is being utilized, it's totally changed. How we think about
protecting citizens. And really, that's one of the like. What it's about. When you think about the military defense sector is how you protect citizens worldwide. Um, the reality is we could have an adversarial
actors out there that we need to protect. We can have adverse awake, Vince like nature of climate change, and those sorts of things. Spaces is an economic engine. But it's also an capability that's
helping us to live better lives, improve our lives here on Earth and to protect our citizens. That's what's fundamentally about. Um, if if you just kind of track humans you can think of. We've been traveling the ground for a long time. And then we went through the air sector. And now we're even higher and
higher in the realm of living and sustaining life with the international space station aspect really spaces about life your earth and I think that's what's so important. It's important that this this region I think Adam is why we're seeing more companies there and we're seeing the government step up as Joseph touched on of Understand the importance of improving our life also understand that technological advancements that come from countries that invest in space So much has been very positive so far. Did you talk to The challenges that are still there. Obviously, industry here in the region isn't as developed as it might be. Connect to somebody pick a global rivals. Could you talk about some of those hurdles store? So first of all, thank you for having me.
Mhm on the beginning. I want to say that you are in the future in Poland did really accepted forward. We like I don't know. €160 million Ah, the next two years for space as a country, So this is great. Great move forward last year. There was a rumor as we were preparing
for this and it's happening, but And I think Companies with without the people and I know here on, uh yeah, There's the one that lady she's behind. Of all this success in Polish space ecosystem, and she did it. She was the only believer. I was working with her, like Four years or five. And she was
Always trying to encourage your space ecosystem in Poland. Right now we got in the future. We have a chief of this here with us, and we are looking forward to develop policy Specs. Space sector. So right now we can have a different problems that we have before because right now we have to model is as a country as companies. And actually start to think about the big big things and start to imagine how hours policy space sector our Polish space ecosystem should should look like and I totally believe that Bullish businessman and politician. Engineers were will great things.
Right now. A lot of projects are starting. And I hope soon will apply. Also to The International space station, and he moved inspired also more Polish Polish entrepreneurs. Start their business. I believe that because of it, we will have more capital in Polish police. Mm.
Ecosystem and the Theresa region. Coming from the also private sector. So I think the biggest challenges right now it's too uh Up to, like, use all those funds in the proper way. This is the biggest change is what we will have right now in Holland and intelligent. Thank you. Dr
about the importance of Public policy and then private investments being aligned crucial rural countries in the region doing this sort of Shooting star They're trying to catch up with Not all countries are doing the same. Actually, Some of them are members of all of the America. So this is something that I look forward to. Many of them are associate status to become future members. But certainly among those countries there
are very few work quite active and active in investing in space, and certainly what Poland there The last year with his major industrial investments or the push giving the industrial investments for the Easter funding which was contributed, I think is a very important signal, and I really hope that this signal is not only heard but replicated in other countries are of the three CS and do similar things because Poland but they really want to what compliments to Their of Asian of this decision, because this is not something that that may be paid is paying off tomorrow. This is investment into the future. And this is one of the challenges or warning side really would like to mention here as well, that this is not a wonderful things. It has to be a long term strategy. Something that builds up ER, uh interesting industries have built up an economic system. Because otherwise it will be money that is, is like in a bubble disappearing And this is something that, of course in space. We have to think in time for himself, 5 to 10 years or at least to really have a long term strategy to do that. And that
was Poland has that, But I if I can ask to the other three CS countries, um Some of them are having established strategies. Austria is one of them. Remember, it's a longer period. Some of them are countries on the eastern former eastern bloc called eastern part of Europe. I think they are looking really at this experience now of Poland and see how they can establish a lot of those strategy, a long term in this a long term investment plan and I only see this happening about your disease is to help these countries building up the economy, helping build up a strong base economy. It will happen,
but it needs to countries too. Have a sustained long term commitment and don't have a strategy and, of course, future investments to come and just I think is is necessary. This is one of the elements I really would like to hear as well, which is a follow up to the other analysts jumping on him What European cause of the Polish decision to go all in on on one side really membership of visa before Poland actually last year celebrated its 10 years, although it was more than 10 years, but The 10 years could not be celebrated. So
we had a big celebration on the Big Public awareness campaign or for what two based means for the economy and society. Certainly also, the selection or for Lavash is a real fast one out. There's a future astronaut candidate is has been a milestone because, of course, also attention to the topic of space and everything linked together with her. I would say good, their estimate of the future, potentially
the economy and what it means for society economy, including security, By the way, Poland being very being next to Ukraine. I think all these elements put together Her made it realize. And of course, we should ask the Polish government percentages who would know much better. But what I got from interactions is that this was really elements that led to recognition of spaces. A future investment just mentioned before and something that Poland would like to establish its footprint leader in the three C's regions or in the Eastern European countries, and be really a model of old models of other countries to follow, and I think this is something that that I had acknowledged in the She She ate them. I've
All the other countries self, the three cc my full commitment to build up space in their countries. And I think what we're what we're seeing here was born in his credit, simply mix of security, economic development and then something pretty cool to celebrate. Um, yes, I I think that that is true. But but what is, um It is very important at the end of the day, it all starts and ends with people. Um, you know, I think the society at large, should be educated must be educated, and only once it's educated.
You actually can start moving the bigger rocks. Um, but you've got to have those leaders. You've got to have people that believe you have people that will Trying to persevere against all odds, and they are going to be the ones that are ultimately going to push this. And if you are in a situation black enough for yourself, and for the nation where there are several of those people, people like swallows, people like everything the government and they can come together and I think you know great things can happen. And the truth is that deposit situation Um, I think that changing financing in order of magnitude right so that the jump is actually quite substantial. And you know, hopefully, with this jump, we will be as as proud of a member of his eyes as Austrian producers. As great as space mines
is Austrian. Maybe one day one of them will be coming to you, Lisa. I think we are actually seeing a kind of a bit of awakening Europe when it comes to space. So so definitely, you know, like, um be honest. Europe is a bit lucky behind. I think behind the US U S. A. And we also see China spending billions like That knows how many videos lot You know, And and And, of course, you know, like they spend this on the governmental projects private, even in private. It's not private, and we don't really know how much they spend, but they spend a lot Hmm. And for this, you know, like a should
be given credit to the European Commission. Really open up. Also thinking projects, you know, like, two years ago, Okay, We need to start catching up. We need to innovate. We need to push for private investment. We need to push forward for startups. And we see this change so again, you know back I would say six years ago. Ah, we'll really get probably maybe one or two. My best friend. Text from the start ups. Hmm. Um, move. Also,
them would be I would say more of a Dream with lack of Finally shows structure and and Visibility of revenues. Today. We are getting several weeks. So it's actually changed a lot. Many governments starting from France and also Italy. To some extent, UK, Germany are pushing the agent forward. We've dispensed the investment. Friends is ahead of
everyone, at least from what we see in putting money stimulating the startups ecosystem, But I would say that we still need to do much, much more. And I wish that s I would have a similar budget to NASA. And it shouldn't and this should be the case. No, it isn't speaking. You know, Like, like, why whole Europe? I wouldn't be able to have a similar budget to us, especially that we need to catch up. So? So I hope, uh, And then other countries will follow. Not only within the East but throughout Europe, because you know if you want to do that, just like behind and we still have a big time. We are delayed. We are still at the beginning of this. Huge Okay, let's say industrial revolutionary space and then I really mean it's gonna happen. And today when we are talking about in space
manufacturing in space infrastructure, it sounds like that, like like movie, but it's gonna come. It's going to happen. And either we're gonna play with heart of it. We're gonna lose it. Yes, And I would hate to think of Europe losing it right now, so we need to move forward and I wish to contribute even more. And I wish other countries contributing more because, as mentioned, it's not just creating. Um FPs DTV employment. It's not just bringing you Novation to all the industries. Actually about losing potentially the pattern that
we cannot lose. Daniel Adam raises a very good point there, Uh, budget. It's a I imagine it's because there's been greater sort of public perception in the US, This is something to invest in the whole omissions. The mystique around that for a whole generation of American, But it is also about Closer relationship between the private sector companies I locate and that's it. The government realized this is something we should invest in. Does that exist in Europe or to a lesser extent? Yeah.
Great question. Because I was thinking is Adam was talking of kind of, I think three sort of legs of the stool, military military investments in space civilian. Government agencies, and that's when it's based in industry. Right and those have to be very
closely tied partnerships. And then the reality is NASA civilian civilian agency civil mission. They've always had a close link to the military because we understand that applications and space for multi use and they always had a close relationship with industry. If you actually look at the work performed by now, son about 80% of what NASA does is still the industry. So it's extremely close partnership between industry and the government and that's what we're seeing in Europe in Poland, in particular, were older. It's really lean forward. There
is understanding that investments in the civil side from the military and industry that close tied partnerships really advanced. Um, you know, work with countries all over the world. And then when you look at Australia, they're rapidly advancing the space United Kingdom. It is really starting to invest heavily in space home in Central Eastern Europe, right And I think what we're seeing is people understanding and beginning to see the benefits. We also touched an education. That's a really important aspect, so we need to talk about NASA. NASA's great closely tied With the universities
across the United States, Um I'm a fundamental believer in that We have to invest in universities, and then we have to entice and encourage young people to go into stem related fields, And then that starts with helping them understand why spaces such a great place to be and help changed our lives. That's what we're also doing right. So you see around the world Countries that are facing include Poland are engaging universities starts right being a young people want to go into Building up the technical applications and temperature touch with industry. It's a combination above board industries, such as like the warden and leveraging the innovation and flexibility of upstarts, right, so industry coming in, and so it really is about that partnership that you're touching on, and I believe that's why you see some of the differences and I think it's why you see in Europe really started to invest in that area. Interesting, moderated a panel
here last night on one of the Panelists. Raised the issue that Poland they used to be 15 engineering students per 1000 now dropped to 12. So this is a this is a downward trend. That must be a worry, right? If you're trying to build up a space industry and people are going into engineering You need these people to be killed, right? They're going to set up these companies. How is that being dealt with in particular? So this is a really big issue right now because more and more people are choosing other subjects in the technical Around the world. I think not only Poland. And the good news. Is that still a lot of percentage. Uh, engineers in our society really
big percent of our societies, Engineers, engineers. Bigger than in the United States, for example. So because of the resources to utilize But still we are. We are looking for new bright minds. More and more people. Poland. Right now Growing tremendously. More and more people are coming from other parts of the Europe and from the world and Mm. So easier to even higher in Poland of Italian people or people
from us. So this is something from, uh, Spain. This is, uh Right side of this subject of this equation, but From the second side bonds with put more efforts to promote technical, uh, technical Projects Technical studies center. I think she's doing great. Now. This will be like an example for the young
people to choose more. Technical subjects and We'll have more engineers in the future. Right now. It's it's going to the Not good. Mhm. Hmm. Direction. I thought they are not positive for us. Interesting. What Tony was
saying about three legs of the stool often wonder that Europe is a little squeamish about military spending, defense, public public spending and we know we know this is something that Talk about a lot since vision. Craig should be spending more on defense. This is the space industry have problem that There is this pushback. Sometimes people say we should be spending money on schools and hospitals. Social
Security nets. No Satellites, rockets, things like that. I mean, it's not about public perception, too. Is that about getting people as well on TV? Wow. Okay. Space isn't just about Boys spending money on big rockets. It's about Are you seeing that progress made? Elvis or difficult debate to convince decision makers politicians to invest in anything space or schools or hospitals or whatever it is and what we I'm doing this so almost on a daily basis, because my job is the cheese, of course, to be a future programs, so future funding. We had a ministerial conference in, UM, November. 22, which
was enormously successful and let me just call the figures just to put the financial part of reading context and fully agree with what you said. I wish I would have the budget of matter. This is something that is always my benchmark, beginning. Bit closer because we are the trend. But in November 22 at the last ministerial conference, we just came out of covid. As
you well know, we had double teach you to inflation rates in several countries. Yeah. The economy was not very happy State. We had, um, really fear of economic downturns and made sure it was exactly the boundary conditions to LA before funds or convince decision makers that is needed for all these projects. I have to say the argument server well received. Because 17% more than the previous ministerial, which was covid, despite all the circumstances, which were not very favorable, But this also shows to me that space is recognized as a major growth sector and something that helps to society and the economies of the countries to to to glow and to be more resilient also against the crisis, which we are facing. Yes, we would always be a challenge, and we know the current
budget situation in some countries in Europe is not a very easy one would always be a challenge. But on the other side, and they are really good examples of us as as one country but also China, India, you a Japan and many others where I see enormous growth in the space sector. Very good reasons They're not doing it for the fun of it, sending astronauts to do some of which, of course, is very visible. Meant a very important one. But simply the space economy has been so deeply
in grained and integrated, entertaining life that it's absolutely necessary to be part of it. And you cannot just imagine that they without satellites without spaces, because then everything would literally collapsed. So I think people realize the importance of space or so as an essential moment of our will be our living standard of security. Yes, I think this is the strongest argument which we have to make. People realize that there's opportunities. Sure security looks after climate change and many other elements so that it is so important, and that's why companies like investigated that this is what I also would like to see more and more money flowing into space. He's got questions from the audience. But just while you guys think, obviously work in Brussels, and I see how there are certain aspects of policy that governments in the EU up willing to kind of share The obvious one would be monetary policy with the euro or border policy with Schengen in some aspects of that, really not to share defense at the moment, this constant battle to try to get companies to make your European Airbus right. But maybe not, because I quite like
having capabilities its space in the defense category to keep their own capabilities because they're thinking about security, or is it in the Your monetary policy space where people want to share and learn from each other. What's your perception in terms of Europe to anyone who wants to jump in? I mean countries willing to work with each other on space that they want to keep their own national capabilities. I think it starts to change. Uh and obviously like we we still see a lot of This is mine. This is mine. This is mine and do not touch it. Um, I think a good example is not a innovation
fund this this This is coming. This is coming in a big way, and I think it's not only pool of money. Ah, which again is helpful, because you know, like this is going to be a super smart investor. But I think one of the one thing that that It's gonna change and changing already. Its so called dual use perspective or perception. So three years ago when people were hearing dual use They heard defense when they heard defense. They got scared, and
they were running away Questions substantially after Russian invasion in Crane. Ah, people started finger Okay? No, like maybe actually, who needs some of it is dual use. Ah, and this dual use it's for protecting people protecting borders for the security. So over those last four years, dual exchanged completely. It's perception. From something that people were not even willing to talk about. Something. We just perceive this. Okay? You know, like we need dual
use technologies and dual use technologies are actually are on the rise. And this is more actually Collaborative because again, you know, like trying to protect, you know, like space. They for one country doesn't make any sense. Obviously, Yeah. This is this is global tech by by by definition, actually, you know, I have a strong belief that you know the tech the good taxes global. It's not global. It's probably not good. Um, And and so, so so, this this this I C s s s a change and also no like replying a bit to what you've mentioned about. You know how to convince governments you know, like to spend
more on space Take my answer is democratization so space, it brings Democrat ization Democrat ization in communication and access to data in access to information. We have satellites. We can have an an Internet access in the rural areas in the areas. We do not have the same network. But also we have an access to the space data like observation data. This is democratization of access to information globally. Which which stimulates openness, democracy, And so this is part of the answer and are part of the answer is that actually you cannot protect our planet Earth.
Without You know air for observation and and and and data coming from satellites. It's really hard to understand the processes which are happening on the air from planet from within. You know, It's like trying, you know, like to look behind your old or your own eyes, you know, like you really need to see from top to see from using optical. You need to see using SAR into saying using infrared and
many others, you know, like Sensors to understand what's happening here in order to protect it, Henry, I might I, uh, just to comment. I think it's a little both. It's a little bit of both. I mean so individual countries if you think about military applications have military and and they want the ability to have sovereign capabilities. At the same time. I could tell you for working with so many countries
around the world. We're seeing cooperation like we've never seen before, and we think it's a really good thing. Allied nations working together. One. We understand that global competition among industries is really good. Right. So we know that competition brings out innovation,
right? So when we have you know, when you when we allow component companies to compete, for example, we create innovation through that. But the other thing we're seeing is the supply chain. When we went through Covid. We saw fragility great agility in the global supply chain. And I think that Allied nations in Europe and the United States
and Australia and Japan and others are understanding that we can rely upon one another, and we're stronger together. And so there's no reason we can't have a supplier out of, you know, Central Eastern Europe, for example, that's coming right back into the US market or going into the Australian market and etcetera, and by doing that will advance our capabilities way beyond what we ever could alone and so by cooperating together, we can advance quicker and we can strengthen supply chain for all the nations that are involved. Things like the artist accord, for example, or reaching across the international space station has been a great bridge for countries for many years. Um, you know, we often used to say when I was a NASA Joseph that the international space station was the one place we could collaborate, no matter what was happening around the globe. But today I think what we're seeing is that we need allied nations to cooperate and work together. I'm seeing that change quicker than I ever had before
in my career. Is NATO playing a role in driving that sorry it is, or is NATO sort of taking more of a backseat. They don't want to make it. Look to defense focused. Yeah, I certainly think NATO is
helping us with cooperation. Right? It's opening up the door to share technologies and capabilities across so certainly I think the answer is yes. So from my perspective. Countries are collaborating less than more like it was in the past. For example, Russia China. We have, like separate blocks of power emerging all around the world. More and more wars are happening. Uh Hmm. In the Middle East in Europe and everywhere actually So this is not a good sign. But in Europe, I think the integration is progressing
and I hope that when we will Make a few steps forwards. Space will be like the one of the first domain. What? What Europe will sponsor with the full amount of money, which is right now going from separate agency and I think Well, we're is that where we as a Europe if we will stay here in European and Europe will survive this transformation. I think we'll have Uh, Really big capabilities in terms of space and other sectors. So Yeah, I agree with that. Do you see countries in Europe all working together? Could they do more? Actually, both this happening days, a stronger European corporation and I see it in the context of our budget is increasing about this as mentioned before, and that's good.
And we have new really ambitious program, Sir, where Europe is, is showing its strength that capabilities and this is really great. I also see a bit the opposite that there are some national, um and this is mostly related to the security part that the security part obviously is still a national domain is not yet a full European domain. And this is a The core of for of this discussion, so yes, I see both.
But being a two European. Of course, I see as a as a as a really long term way forward is the only way forward uh for Europe to really better integrated capabilities. There's excellent capabilities in many of these countries, and if we would just pull them more cleverly together, um and patching the holes that are still open and they're through joint investments. I think there's so much more Europe could do in in terms so far. Developing, developing its excellent and its
capability. We have shown it in many domains that they Copernicus, Galileo daycare, some space science missions. You clearly choose as examples where European is among the top because we're pulling like excellence and expertise, horizon as well, Right? Any questions from the audience. If you very keen to hear from the gentleman in the front row, do we have a mic? Addicts. If you can introduce yourself before you
ask, the question would be great. Viktor Schmidt, not guru based in Poland. Question for a For a little bit. Um, so I size based headquarters in Helsinki, which is, I think technically outside of the three seats region. What do you think, but in Poland and the region as a whole can learn from Ah, Finland and what kind of support that you get from both the government and and and all the different. It is institutions and the tech and space community there. Right. So, um yes, I I think indeed, Finland is outside of the three
C's sort of group of countries or although it does border with Baltic quite quite a lot. So so perhaps we should. We should re re discussed this at a certain point, but Um It was some whatever of an accidental situation that that the dice I was born in Finland as it happened, You know, As you know, Victor, I'm Polish. I I moved her to the study at the university as part of the Erasmus Student exchange program, which, by the way every single time I want to emphasize as one of the greatest achievements of the European Union, and I think it should be subsidized further and invested in. Furthermore, Um, anyway, I ended up studying there for a year, and that's where I met my co founder, and we did start the company in the university. And and since we were there, that's
when it emerged and the headquarters resides there. It is a truly international company today, you know, I think it's it's worth mentioning that we've got huge office in Warsaw a big one in Spain when in the UK one big one in the United States as well, Right, So it's there's 700 people in nice a spread across the world, but there are a few things indeed in Finland that have helped the origination of icing. There was Um, there was an investment capability that existed over there through a public mean called. Take us back in the days, which is a business Finland and I think that's that's something that we should still try to sort of look into a bit more because I haven't seen her and exact sort of similar type of financing being deployed in other places. Um, what do we do do unique things of it. Look, we when we started myself and become The technology itself behind the company did not exist. So somebody had to finance the R and D part of the development. And that's as Adam probably can confirm.
That's not something that VCs very easily take on themselves. Usually you want to you want to step into a startup when at least some foundation of the technology exists. And then the question is alright. If there is a group of people that want to develop something new, and and every new innovation starts with developing something new Who is really going to pay for that. And I think, if you if you look at this sort of, um Kind of return analysis or return on investment analysis. It's going to always be difficult for financial investors to invest in R and D in the early stage, because how will they realize that return right? However, on the other side on the other hand, nation states can and should take that risk, because even if the if the R and D itself is failed from the perspective that doesn't reach the goal of the innovation that it was supposed to You still have realized oldest financing within your country, and you still have invested in developing the future generation of scientists and innovators, Right? Um, there are countless examples of startups or of teams that have failed that one. Start up second startup, third startup. I'm sure this you know this from from your own experience that the teams don't succeed.
The 1st 2nd 3rd time, right? But if they are not being given the opportunity to innovate to begin with, they will never succeed. Right. So regardless of how many engineers you have coming out of the universities, 12 or 15, if you don't have an infrastructure, financial infrastructure that allows them to innovated this early stage, um There is not going to be the next stage where this is can step in right here. I will say a little bit challenged to justify Caesar's role majorly over here, and I know that is a is doing this where you know today. The truth is that if there is no tech, it's the next best place to go to raise. This financing is is European Space Agency,
and I think that's that's a fair place. But But it's um it's not enough today. And maybe I will. I will respond a little bit too. Why? This is not enough in Europe. Income presented. The U. S. Is because a ton of this early sturgeon innovative financing comes from the security domain in the US, you see, Um naval research Wrap a FL Air Force research lab. Right. So many DARPA so many investment
mechanisms that are Designed to support the fundamental research which ultimately must happen somewhere. Otherwise, there won't be a startup. Is linked to security related domain. And I think if if somebody believes that space is the only dual use critical infrastructure, then ask yourselves. What are the railroads used for during the war time or the roads like we're kidding ourselves. We think that the space is like, Oh, my God. We're going
to use it for security related items. Every single critical infrastructure is security related, whether we like it or not. Great answer. Um yes, there's the lady in the third row, and then we'll take the gentleman in front of her. Thank you. Thank you very much. Zhukovsky from the European Space Agency. Um, um I have a question to yourself and to Adam. So by my rough calculation, this whole region is around actually over 100 million People, European citizens, European citizens, That means the customers for a satellite technology solutions Governments that are using this technology the entrepreneurs that are growing in this region, such as Ah Rafael drug God should they show the examples that brilliant companies can grow in this region? So the question is, is a traditional question with a twist. So what they're going forward
What are the low hanging fruit for this region to develop the capability further or to start developing the capability? And should they aim for the low hanging fruit or maybe a high hanging fruits given where the whole space technologies and the whole space sector is going in this decade, including ambitious goals, such as space exploration in or been servicing completely new domain that are going to be actually driving innovation. In the next 1010 15 years. Or even the extraterrestrial fruit. Um, so it was a crap joke. Ah, when you go first hanging food, So I think that wants that, especially for maybe, uh newcomers or candles that are not yet as deep in and having a space capability, as some of the more established ones are certainly in the downstream sector. The downstream secretary is actually where most of the economy growth is happening. 90% roughly half the total space economy of these 460 billion And I mentioned before is in the downstream sector. And I
think countries in the three CS region they are very capable with good idea capability is good access to agriculture, forestry and other domains to really utilize this data quite quickly, almost overnight for developing services for them of errors, applications. I think that's an immediate started can really happen now. And then, of course. Gradually build up more hardware capabilities. Satellites. I mean, what But raffle was doing is enormous. But, uh and I would I wish I could see more and more of this happening, but I think the quick start is really downstream and then moving upstream. Um, I would say that
the region is is super highly populated with with with technical skilled people. If you look at all the statistics, and I've seen mirror at some point here from Cosmo See, probably gave us numbers on that one. Ah, um you know that that this this region is actually particular strong in technical skills rather than liberal arts or anything else, and and we see this, so so, So I would say that, especially even if we include Ukraine. And if we look at that, you look, Ukraine used to be the the power hub for the whole Soviet exhibit Union for the space station. So the and number of space that engineers there the the, um the the know how that they have. Actually right now partially in Ukraine personally in other European countries, like Italian monitors.
Um, the talent is here. So so so there is a strong fundamental build upon in the crowd region And this is true for Baltics and Balkans. And and everyone in between. Having said that, you know, like I am a
strong believer that you don't really go into the areas which are already populated. With a lot of companies and and we as we see Like two or three years ago. We we've seen probably I don't know, like a dozen decks on rocket launchers. And we said, no pass, you know, like it's it's gonna be a bloodbath. It's Ah, It's unsustainable. You know, like, Of course, you know,
like as an investor. You wish to invest in a rocket launcher because it's like the most sexy thing you can think of. Yeah, it's like owning in the passing of 20 or 30 years ago, and every p wanted to have a TV station. In there, you know, like portfolio like today. If you are in space that you will you want to have a rocket launch and we've looked at all those investment legacy. No, it's like it's probably
a bit too late to Uh, To compete in this space. So so let's let's think of what we can do right now, which is going to be ahead of the curve. That and and, uh it was already mentioned like in space infrastructure. This is something which is going to be huge. Well, which is going to be growing. And if you start right now, you better start in the area, which is going to be big in free 510 years time rather than that the race is already on and and hundreds or billions of money is being pumped up. You just crushed the dreams of other people in the audience
wanted to pitch their rocket launcher idea to just finally we have time for one very quick question here. The gentleman has been waiting very patiently. Um, Adam. Maybe if you can just talk, um, a little bit about, you know, recent lunar missions and the varying degrees of success and do investors understand the risk of space? And is that going to have a chilling effect on investment in space? Or do you think they understand and accept that risk? It's a great question. Uh, it's a very good question, because you know, it's um It's exciting, but it's tricky, you know? So so if we invest right now in in younger companies, we, of course, you know, like, have this privilege of seeing how I say his developed over the years and you know, like How bumpy can be destroyed and when, for instance, when we are talking to some of the portfolio companies, they want to send a satellite. We are telling them you need to fundraise to send to Because you know, like probability that one of them is going to fail. It's actually quite high. And then he'd have really uncomfortable situation to
be in fundraising. Once your first satellites the failure, so you better find raised to launch two of them. And then, of course, the probability at least one of them is going to work. It's substantially higher. And then once you can prove that your satellite is working
to establish communication and and things like that, then you know, like fundraising gets obviously much, much easier because up until you've got an asset in the space that you can communicate with. You know, everyone is saying, you know, it's like, okay, you know, like you can prove something on in laboratory, but but show me this In space. But but the good thing is, there are more and more investors investing in space, and we are actually taking the lead of bringing more and more of them meaning bringing more of like venture capital funds that used to invest in e commerce is marketplaces and thinks like this to try and put, you know, like if you millions In some of those space that companies to start to learn to get on this road to get on the strip to embark and probably in a few years, maybe 235 years down the road and past that we're going to have much, much more, Um VCs and private investors investing in space. That's a great
way to end. Thank you so much for all of you Can I learn a huge amount this morning and a great way to start the day? I wanted to say first thank you to to the anti Council to be GK and all the team at the three C's have for organizing this But most importantly, Thank you so much to the Panelists. Joseph Raffle Adam, Daniel and executive was great. Thank you for coming. Thank you for listening.