Successful Business Models in LBE - Brad Scoggin, SpringboardVR
So. 18 months ago most, of the world thought, that location-based, VR, was a joke, but, here we are today at a conference hosted, by Microsoft with, all the major players and we're, talking about location-based, VR and I love it and I love the fact that for. The most part this industry is still made up of Indies, indie, companies in, these studios and the operators, and. As. Brandon alluded to the. Location-based, market, is in a position that's not only sustaining, the overall VR ecosystem. But, it's in the driver's seat my. Name is Brad Skog and I'm a co-founder and CEO of springboard. VR and we're. One of those indie companies, we're, not Silicon Valley guys we're not Hollywood guys we, weren't around in the 80s and we, haven't been around for the past few attempts, at VR but. What we have been able to do in the last 18 months is build. One of the largest platforms, in the world supporting, the location-based VR market. Today. We've. Have, to ship there a little bit but today, we service, 350, locations, in over 30 countries we've, got 4 million minutes a month played, on our system we. Have 215, titles, and approximately. 150,000. Monthly, active users and in a nutshell what our platform, does is that we provide, the operating, system, for, the location-based VR so we've got in headset, management, location, management and then we handle the commercial licensing, and the distribution, of content. So. What. I like to do in my time with you today is just share some, of what we have learned over the last 18 months, we. Joke about it but I think if, I hear one more generic. Talk about how the home market or the the consumer market isn't ready and we have this chicken or the egg dilemma, and the contents, not there because the user base isn't there we, need some we need some reality, and so hopefully we, don't have all the answers but. We have learned a lot and hopefully I can share some of what we do between now and when. The phantom consumer, market is ready and ultimately. Hopefully. Give you a better perspective about. Where. Location-based, VR is today and the. Importance, of location-based VR and the overall VR, ecosystem, so. What. I generally like to do I want to do these talks is just start with a brief history of our company I think it'll give you a better perspective. Who we are and how, we've come to some of the conclusions that we have come to. There. We go, so. We. Are, young. In the VR world and. Even though I think all of us feel like probably two years in VR is maybe ten years in, normal, business we. Got into VR for the first time in the fall of 2016, I'm. From Oklahoma I was back in alcohol lived in SoCal now I was back in Oklahoma raising money for another business and went. To a buddy's house and I put on a VR headset for the first time and was, totally blown away by the technology and I think as I was preparing you, know just take a second and think about the first time you put on a high-quality VR, headset and that, initial, aha, moment the delight that you you experienced. I think, it's so important that as this industry. Grows and, we move from the, hype in to okay now how do we make this thing sustainable. That we don't lose that initial, excitement about the potential, for VR not, just for entertainment but to change our world and that's what happened for us and, so my buddy starts sharing with me the applications, that were taking place in education healthcare. And of course entertainment, and our, thought was what is the fastest, way for us to get into VR we want to be a part of this thing we. Didn't know much but. We wanted to get involved so a month, later we opened, up in arcade we decided that was the easiest way to get in and we, had no idea what we were doing we we. Had about six weeks from when I put on the headset so when we launched the arcade and the whole, idea for us was, if. We, can get in and do a good job maybe we'll have an opportunity to. Participate in the bigger picture and so, what we said was if, we're gonna do this we need a good location we got to get in by Black Friday because we have we don't know what we're ignorant of and hopefully the holiday rush will cover our mistakes and we've, got to get money really quick well, those three things happened and we had about four weeks to launch and.
So During those four weeks we. Buy all the gear and we're, working through our systems, and processes of how we're gonna run a location, and we, realized that we're totally screwed because, well. I think we had projected maybe two employees to run a ten, station arcade and when. We got the gear we realized that it was so inefficient to try, to get someone in and out of content, that, the small margin we'd projected, was totally going to be erased by having to hire more, employees and so, we built the very first version, of springboard, just to solve our own pain point of Aplin, ploy overhead, so, that we could survive and. So we. Ended up having a really good holiday season we moved into the, beginning of last year and there were a bunch of opportunities for us like we had hoped but, in the back get in the background the software, play is kind of percolating, and we're. Seeing arcades, open up all over the place we're getting on the phone with these different locations and realizing, wow everybody kind of has the same pain points there's not a good way to manage the, location, there's not a good way to access, content and. So we're keeping an eye on that and it, was in March. Of last year that we decided that we would make a bet on the software company and at that time I mean remember. Rewind. Your mind a little bit it feels like a long time ago but at, that time the, the, jury was definitely, out on location based VR no one had you know no one was very confident, in the future and so, what we said is ok if we're gonna do this let's, do it right let's commit to it let's. Let's do do all this stuff well there was some there were some solutions. In the market but they weren't fully committed, to the solution but, we said let's do two things let's, focus on building really good relationships. With developers, and operators and, then let's become experts, in their pain points so, if this whole thing blows up in six months hopefully we've got enough relational, capital, that we can pivot to whatever's next so. In April of last year, we. Launched the company with 40 locations and.
We. When we launched the company we had just the very basic. Location-based. Management. Software, solution, so if. We can slide that up a little bit so it's kind of two components, to that when we launched first we had an in headset launcher, so it's a 360, Netflix style launcher I'm sure, you're familiar with it and familiar. With something like this now but, the whole idea was that we wanted the, user, to be able to navigate their their experience, completely independent, of staff help so whether it's your little kid or your grandma putting on a headset you can walk away and they can do their own thing they can get in and out of content, they, can see how much time they have remaining they can call for help etc, the. Second part of that will be the backend management, for the operator and so. Again this, part of the solution not sexy, at all but very important, too location, managing, multiple stations managing. Multiple locations, managing, the content time, etc, and. So this, whole thing started for us at. Solving. Our own pain point and then getting in and triaging the pain points we're seeing of the ever expanding arcade, market as, quickly as we can and so. In in, August of last year we launched our booking system which, allows, arcades, you can either book when you come into the store you can do it online but it's basically a precursor to our. User. Profiles, and. Through, this whole time we're seeing the market steadily, grow. And. Then last October. This was this was a big turning point for us we'd kind of grown under, the surface up to that point and in. October, we got mentioned one of Charlie thinks articles I think after that after that point. Most. Of the companies in here somebody contacted, us from your company but it was kind of our, entrance. Into the. The market as, we had kind of hoped initially. And. Then. Another, big point for us was in November, so when, we launched the company initially we saw this massive challenge. With, distributing. And accessing, content and so. In November of last year we launched our content, marketplace, where.
We Handle, commercial licensing, of content and we offer, a pay per minute model which I'll talk more about that in. Just a little bit. And. Then earlier this year in May we launched springboard, 3.0, which was basically a total reworking, of everything. Under the hood to prepare us for scale, and we also updated our UI UX. I'm. Almost done here with the story part, and. Then, this month we're excited we're partnering with beat Sabre and we're sponsoring a. Global. Tournament one, of the largest VR. ESports. Tournaments, to, date and. In this fall we'll, be launching our content, distribution system. And this is very important for us up to this point we've, utilized steam for the technical distribution, of content and we've overlaid our agreements, and handle the paper minute licensing. With, our content distribution system. Will no longer need to use steam and this, is something that our customers, both the operators, and the, developers have been requesting for some time it adds, a layer of increased. Efficiency, but. Also helps with combating, piracy which, is a ever-growing, challenge, right now in the location-based, villar market, so. What, I'd like to do now is is, transition, a bit and talk. About the market and one thing I want, to preface this with is, that. The. The information the data I'm going to share with you is what we know so we really try to not extrapolate. And say well this is what could be I think, I get. Tired of that kind of data so, what, I'm going to present to you may not be the whole picture but I think it's pretty close to the whole picture in a lot of ways and and, you can at least be confident, that what I'm communicating to you is something that we know. So. Right now this is the market as we see it outside of China. Japan and Korea and we have a name, for every single one of these locations so we know of 1700 locations, worldwide outside, of China Japan and Korea and then, the breakdown will be that 55% our, VR are. Dedicated, VR attractions. 25%. Family entertainment centers or FEC, s and then, 20% are kind of this mishmash of, gaming, centers escape rooms etc that have just tagged on VR to. Kind of capitalize on the novelty, of VR, right now. The. Business models, and everybody breaks us down a little bit differently, this. Is how we break it down in. Our company and so, we've got independent. And branded, VR arcades, and as, I get into some some more of the data those are the two primary groups that we work with today so that's where we've got the most visibility, and where I can share the most information. And data then, you've got the large-scale free roam and the, fec, solutions, providers so I'll I'll, quickly kind of break each of these down so. First, we've got the independent arcades and, generally. Speaking these are room scale VR some. Will have simulators. Of some sort some will have treadmills, but, it's a very simple, model it's. Generally, a vie for an oculus sometimes, I use now the the windows mix reality content, is almost, 100%, access, from steam at this point and generally. Speaking they, sell time and, that's important, and when we get to content, and pricing here in just a bit but. More. Or less you go in and rent time on a headset, 30 minutes to an hour or, whatever it may be some, exam of this V arcade mom VR VR world New York City and house of VR.
So. The second would be the branded, VR arcades, very, similar, to the first group the the main difference here is that these, are run by companies. That you would know much. More well-funded, and all. The content does not come from steam some, of it is the dedicated, LBE content, and. A few of these models, have, some small, free, roam or. Yes. Small-scale free roam and. Most. Of these still sell time but, there is a bit of a transition here that some of the branded locations, sell tickets which is something else we need to talk about so you an example be imax Serbia's, in la vie rd part v are part of dubai interspace. And vive land. You. Got the large-scale free roam so this this to me is where it starts to get sexy and i think this is when we think about the potential of vr this. Is what we all really get excited about and so these, are generally the large-scale free room where, it's untethered, generally, what you're walking around a warehouse, you. Got the Hollywood IP or custom, content. Most. Of these do sell tickets we've, now gotten away from the time based model, for the most part and examples here would be the void ream scape VR studios nomadic, zero latency spaces. The, companies that are getting to headlines right now for the most part. And. Then. Last is the fec solutions, providers, and this this is still a bit of a mix and I, think. This. Group may have the most potential, just. Because you've got you've. Got the real estate already available you've got companies that have resources that are looking to draw in people and the, fec solutions, provide or the FTC's, have the ability to really pull from any of the first three categories. In. Their business model so these, are generally some sort of plug in plug, and play turnkey. Tethered. Room scale generally, its player versus player content, some is tether tether, let's free roam but, definitely, turnkey. In this category. Custom. Content some steam content, and then. Got, a mix here of the of selling tickets and selling time examples. Would be exit reality, the drastic world experience, with VR studios and the virtual reality company in town simulators Halle Gate minority, media tower. Tag our cave and neuro, gaming. So. What I wanna do now is is shift and talk about the two groups that we've got the most visibility. On so I think that's where we can add the most value from, our perspective, because it's where we've worked the most in the last 18 months and, that is in in more of the arcade market work we we, don't even like to use that term because we don't want to pigeonhole ourselves, there, but I think that is is, the clearest term to use with this group of where we're working and so one, of the things we've done over the last 7, months it, gets its eight months it's. August now 78. Months is kind. Of take a deep dive into, our, locations, and. Done. Some extensive surveys. Extensive. Phone interviews with operators, and then just to observe, the data that we've been collecting to.
Really Try to identify, what's. The difference between the successful locations. And the non successful, locations and to some degree we, feel like we have a responsibility, to do this because we do have such a visibility, I mean, working with 300. Plus locations. In multiple countries it's, a lot of different use cases it's a lot of markets and so, we've had to learn to op you know kind of pivot and service different types of locations. And we've learned a lot from that so. But. Before I get into the some of the success factors I do want to talk about why, we believe that this the. Arcades, so one in two in particular are, important, to the. Overall ecosystem we, believe they're very important so scale. Accessibility. Monetization. And feedback and we'll start with scale you, know maybe scale isn't the right word I know scale has connotations, and its relative, and probably, the numbers we're looking at right now in location-based VR most, of you would laugh at saying that's and that's not even close to scale but. What's, encouraging to me is that there, is steady growth so, in over, the last several months we're. Adding 40 to 50 new locations, a month just to our platform and there's other platforms, out there we are one of the larger platforms, but that's, just our platform, and what's, encouraging to me about that is that you go back a year ago and we were adding 15. To 25 so the growth rate is almost doubled over the last year and in. Addition. To that, these. Are generally 5 to 30 headsets, per. Location. But. I think it's it's, exciting to that when you look at the four categories. The. Arcade category, and especially the independent, arcade category. Should. Be the the least likely to have success there, the least well-funded the least experienced. But, they're seeing the strongest growth there right now from, our perspective and, the other the other side of that coin is that it should be very encouraging that we look at FEC, s and we look at the large-scale free roam and see we.
All Believe that's where the real value is long term but, right now the groups. We thought weren't going to be super successful or actually, kind of leading the pack so from our perspective that should be very encouraging, overall. The. Second the second part here is, accessibility. And, this. Goes from both the operator to, the customer, and so it's a very low barrier to entry for, these different operators and we're seeing these pop up all over the place so, it's not just in the big cities it's in it's in cities with sub, 30,000, population, but, it's easy for someone to open up a shop and we're. Seeing them pop up all over the place and we truly believe that these arcades, these VR arcades are the gateway to VR for the masses and I think as we look at the overall VR, ecosystem. And the growth of that ecosystem that's. Extremely, important, because most people, are going to experience VR for the first time at, their local VR arcade, and those, are that that is the, consumer. Base that we're all hoping. For to. Exist someday and we, can get we can get them there we can get them exposed, to VR we, get their feedback etc. So. Monetization. And feedback, the. Arcade, ecosystem. Or Sudi the arcade, market, does provide, an opportunity as. We're waiting for the consumer, market to mature that. There, is a supplemental. Income there for the content creators absolutely. There's some own income there there. Are some independent content. Studios doing very well right now in the location-based, market, and I think that's very encouraging and that's one of the things that we've been able to do is with our platform is take this somewhat, fragmented, market. And put, it all kind of under one roof so that content creators have a more easy or easily, accessible, user. Base to monetize, their content in, the out-of-home market same. Thing is true with hardware again it's supplemental, at this point but. There is there, is money to be made with hardware in the location Bay market and. We're. Also seeing these locations. Surprisingly. Are not I think, a lot of people think that they're failing or on the verge of failing and from what we're seeing that's just not the case and and at this point I mean we're maybe. Two years into really the first arcades, getting going outside of Japan Korea and China and so. Right. Now across our platform, we're seeing the 65% are either breakeven, or better which is pretty good if you're if most of these guys have been open 12 to 18 months. And. Then of course the other the other value, add to, the overall ecosystem is the ability, for feedback, so content creators have an opportunity, you know if we're looking at 150,000. Users a month on our platform that's a lot of people getting in content, that we can get feedback from that's, a lot of operators a lot of use cases and, the same thing is true with, the hardware and even how these operations are run like Brandon was showing how they've, learned help you know how you clean off the headsets and there's so there's so much learning taking place right now and I think that's got to be the perspective, of. This part of the market. So. I mean I would hit on three success, factors that we have seen separate, kind, of the winners, from the losers I, guess for lack of better terms in the arcade market, specifically, and. The first one is, really this, this impacts, everybody, this impacts, not just entertainment it impacts, education, it impacts. Every vertical that we're operating in that still. To this day the, number one challenge facing VR, that, we, hear from our operators, is that nobody knows what VR is and I was at a conference recently and someone asks have we saturated. The, via people. With VR I'm thinking we hadn't gotten started are you kidding me like nobody, knows what VR is and our. Most successful operators. The way that they have become successful is, because they've bought a couple extra headsets, and got, some minimum wage employees and they send them out in the community to, do free demos that, that should be all of our number one objective, right, now and every one goal is how do we get more people into the high-end VR because, there's challenges too with the different qualities of VR and people oh I've tried that it's not it's not what you know it's not up to to. Snuff so. Are profitable, arcades, report the 95, percent of the first time customers, have never tried. VR before I think it's a very telling stat. So. We. Be, successful getting, people in the door by taking VR to the people. Second, thing and this is not, sexy at all but they report the second most effective marketing is the social media marketing which okay maybe that's that's pretty I guess, that, would be expected. What is interesting I believe is is where these locations, are located.
And For. Us for example when, we were getting started we we had no clue when we were opening our arcade and so, we thought well we've got to get in a mall we don't know what we're doing we need the foot traffic and I think what's encouraging about this is that our profitable, locations, only 11 percent are in malls and actually 40 percent are completely, freestanding, the, the rest of those would be you, know maybe in a strip mall or something but if we're looking at 40% of our successful locations, are able to be totally, standalone that means people are going there specifically, for VR, again. I think that's very encouraging to, the overall, market. At this point and. Then the demographic, may. Be a little bit surprising the, number one demographic, hands. Down from our locations, would be would be families. With children and then, right behind that kind of all equal, equally. Spread. Out would be gamers novelty, seekers and teenagers. Let's. Talk about price a little bit and and even kind of how this model has evolved, I've had a lot of, friendly. Arguments, with some of the Hollywood studios, about the time rental model versus a ticketing, model and and. Right now, what I say is there's. Just a reality that in this independent. Arcade market, it is, the time model it is not the ticketing model and, maybe. The Hollywood, business, model, the movie theater model is actually a better model that, may be true but entering. Into this if you're if you're gonna create content, for this market with that assumption is just it's not a healthy assumption at this point we're. Either gonna have to educate the. Existing market that the way they're doing it is wrong which may be true or there's gonna have to be so much money coming from Hollywood, that we all just say okay however you want to do it but. But for the most part the reason that it, has evolved, this way is that, in the early days if we can call it the early days almost all, of the content was coming from steam and there was no content, that was compelling enough to sell tickets for and so even. The model eyes that exists today you, go in and rent time you a headset, and then, you play five to ten titles, during that hour that you're there. So. What we're seeing on price and, again. This is very important, for our operators as we've been communicating this back to them is that in the, early days again, most, operators, were charging closer to $1. Per minute so in the 45 to $60, an hour range and what we're seeing today and I. Always say I'm just the messenger we're, observing and reporting so, sometimes, people I don't you're driving prices down oh I'm just telling you what we're seeing are. Successful. Locations, without, a doubt or sub 50 cents and per, hour per minute per minute and most of those are in the twenty to twenty-five dollar per. Hour range, and so what they found is you've, got to price. Put, prices at a point where you're, driving people back one to two months one to two times a month rather than one to two times per year and the, one caveat to this as we as prices drop is that we've seen you've got to have a minimum, of eight stations, and really it probably should be a little bit higher than that what we may revise that soon but, in order to take advantage of, the peak times on evening. Evenings and weekends, you've got to have at least eight stations, to. Get the utilization where it needs to be. Okay. Content, this is my this is my favorite, part of this I love to talk about the content, so. First. Our, perspective. And, again I don't ruffle feathers our perspective, is that. Today. Content. Is not driving, people to these locations for the most part okay there's there's beat Sabre has an opportunity the Jurassic Park thing has an opportunity but overall it's not content. That's driving, people to locations, and. Just, as an example who. And here goes to the movie theater to experience, the technology of a video being played on a massive screen nobody. Right we go to the movies because we want to watch Mission Impossible what's. Exactly the opposite taking place right now in these VR arcades people are going to the arcade because they want to experience, this new technology.
Now Thankfully the, content, is improving, and the content at least is good enough that it is driving repeat business, but. I think this is a very important. Fact. And I'm in my mind for us to be aware of I think overall too as we. As the industry matures, and we, move out of kind of this the hype and maybe honeymoon, phase of, VR we've, got to settle into a more almost emotionless, objective. Perspective. On how, we're making decisions, and. So, one. Of the things that we did as. I want talk about price first when, we launched our content, marketplace. Last, November, we. Had enough volume at that time that we could have gone to content creators and and. Bartered. For volume, discounts, and we said look we're not going to do that and the, number one reason is that we believed at that time and I believe for, the most part it's still true today that, we do not know what a unit of VR is worth and so, even if you if you ask an arcade why you're charging, $50. An hour versus 25 most. Of them are just copying, somebody else right there's no data there's no there's there's no testing, everyone's just guessing and copying so. We're in this position so we've got enough volume that we could negotiate lower. Prices but, we don't believe that it. Just felt premature, so we said is let's. Only offer per permanent. Pricing, so we were testing one variable we're not gonna add monthly and annual pricing, we're just gonna do permanent, pricing and. We're. Gonna give total price control to the, developers, and then we're gonna give total, power. To the operators, to be able to opt in or out of content and then provide as much transparency, of price as possible so try to create as best, we can an environment. Where economic, forces could work and knowing, that it was going to be very messy and we had plenty of people complaining, about it but we felt like it was the right thing to do and so as we've observed, this over the last eight, months now or so it's, been fascinating, because, it's been very messy, we've seen prices go up Binga prices go down and a. Couple. Things the the, the number one thing that we, have observed and, going, back to comparing, our successful, operators, to our less. Successful, operators is that the successful, locations, do not pay more than 15%. For content and they. Are emotionless, with, this there's, no you, can't you can't get them to budge 15%. Is the ceiling on what they pay for content, and I mean 15%, of the price that they charge to the end-user and, so. That's. Very interesting to us and I think it's interesting about that as well as that and. Maybe a bit concerning is that remember, my first point on content, is we're still talking about for the most part content, that is not driving, business, to these locations we don't have the triple-a content, we'll talk about brand and IP here in a minute but content, is not driving, business and more and some of these guys are already at that 15% ceiling, and. So, when. Better content, comes either the current contents, gonna have to bite the bullet and drop prices or these arcades, are gonna have to pay more than 15%. Which I think could, potentially be harmful to their business model but. So what, the recommendation, that we are now making and it's. Hard so, kind of the way we work into this as we say, location. In or in 30 countries so location. You should charge a price point to, your customers, that drives repeat, business one to two times a month not, one to two times a year we, suggest, in the 20 to 25 US dollar range and then. We say second, secondly, we, we, recommend that you do not pay more than 15%. For content and so, that is definitely that's obviously a function of what you charge per hour but, following that line of thinking our current, pricing recommendation. And this is overly simplified, because we've got to get we've got to evolve into more regional pricing is six, cents a minute and so, we've got a handful, of content, creators that we're working with who have agreed with us to say okay let's, try this we're gonna go in with you at six cents a minute for a period of time and we're, gonna test it and that's, that's our hobo that that's our whole pitch to these guys is look, it's.
Actually Better for us if the prices are higher but, I think we've what's, healthy for the overall industry is that the the goal is not right. Now how do I make the most money but it's it's, it's answering, these questions what, is a unit of VAR worth and things, like that. So. Some, other things we've learned the. Branded IP so. Wow. Brand that's. Helpful but, we've, seen some very clear, examples, in the last six months even of branded, IP where, the cult where the quality of content was not up to snuff completely. Fail completely. Not really fail and that's the other thing when I talk to these Hollywood studios say look yes, the IP is awesome, people are gonna love that but if you think you can shortcut it and not create quality content you're just kidding yourself you're gonna waste time and money you've got to have quality content and the, same is true when we go to these even the indie Studios they say look tomorrow. By the end of this month we'll have 2000 headsets on our platform so tomorrow, I can put your content in front of 2,000 headsets I can, guarantee that to you but if the content is a good it's not going to get play there's nothing I can do about that and doesn't matter how much marketing, you do and how great. The brand is you got associated, with it. Overwhelmingly. At this point our our. Locations, do prefer, the permanent, pricing model and there's two reasons for that number, one right now most. Locations are offering multiple titles. So you see the the profitable, locations are offering about 30 titles so, in order for them to be able to offer 30, titles across ten headsets, paying, for that on a monthly, licensing, fee is just too expensive the permanent pricing model allows them to just pay as they play. One. Interesting, thing to note one. Of the other results, of our. Pricing. Experiment, is that the, locations, that, are. Very. Hardcore on not paying more than 15 percent we, saw this massive arbitrage. Off our platform because we allow content, from Steam if you want to face Steam site licensing on a monthly on a monthly basis so we saw this massive arbitrage, on the higher priced per. Minute titles, that are very popular to, steam to a monthly license, where Altima they're paying less than six cents a minute and so, again I'm arguing with content creators saying look you, think your price point is too high they're gonna get it anyway because, if your content is popular they're. Doing the math and they're gonna go find the monthly license. So. I. Said. This before but I'll just say it again the demographics, here the families of kids gamers, novelty seekers and teenagers. So. Closing thoughts. Our. Perspective, is that this. Is just getting started like I mentioned of the four categories I, think the two like least, likely to succeed right, now have such strong. Steady. Growth that is very encouraging when I see our numbers come in every month and there's still the strong growth in month I mean we've had back-to-back record-breaking.
Months, Of new. Signups. From the independent arcade market I think that's extremely extremely. Positive, the. Other thing I think we've got to have the perspective all, of us that, until the consumer, market is ready we, have this opportunity to learn, and that has got to be our top priority and then, I want to encourage everybody it's. Like it's the same thing with data even, for us we, have we have decent amount of data but it's nowhere nowhere, where it needs to be and so, we've got to as an industry focus, on the data and we've got to make decisions based on the data not, our gut are not our emotions, or not that we're excited and we already invested. X amount into this deal and. So. Either. We've got, at. Worst we've, got an amazing, opportunity. To. Just learn in this in this massive, experiment as we prepare as we prepare for the consumer market and at best we have a market that continues to grow and is, not only a great learning environment but, but actually ends up being very. Successful for all of us from, a financial perspective thank. You.