Roxgold (TSX: ROXG) - Little Fish Taste Sweet
If you want to understand if you can make money investing. In rocks gold you need to watch this video hello. And welcome to our viewers on crooks, investor calm, and for those of you new to crooks and bursar please click the button in the corner of the screen to subscribe to our YouTube, channel, today. We're gonna be discussing a few things with John Doerr with the CEO of rocks. Gold's, were gonna cover his, recent, drill announcement, their, strategy, and how they're piecing that together and, the fundamentals, of mining, in Africa, and what the competition, is up to and if we can we'll get a prediction out of them these, topics, and more are in the description, below click on the relevant time stamp and you'll, go straight to that part of this video so. Let's talk to John John how are you very well thank you good to see you again yeah we spoke recently online, and, thank you you know, it. Is it is always is so what we're gonna do today if you don't. Mind give us a 1-minute summary of the business then what can I get stuck into it sure absolutely, so so rocks, gold is a is a development, and and operating. Gold mining company our. Principal, asset is the yarra moco gold mine in Burkina Faso rocks. Coal discovered, in 2011, and put it into production in 2016. So it's been in operation now for three years it's. A very profitable, very, good operations, been a strong underpinning, source, of cash flow for our company and, we just made our first significant. Investment, in terms of growth by buying the sequela gold project in Cote d'Ivoire from. Australia's new crazy morning so let's talk about that I want to paint a picture here, for. Investors. Who are watching this, on investor doc Sheehan trucks and faster you. Outlined. A strategy to, me which I thought was fascinating you. Thought. I forgot an asset we're gonna rather, than the kind of workout what you've got on the ground you've got quickly, into, production. And. That's giving you the cash to. Be able to look at additional. Acquisitions but, it was also out of necessity because of the the mind like a year on moco is is what it is and we can maybe. Get into that now tell us a little bit about yaar moco worthy, what you saw there and perhaps what the restrictions were, in terms of things like mine, life so. I mean the era moco he's really a great, asset it's really I think for a company that's starting out and he's he's, a junior, with the development said yellow, moko is exactly, the sort of assets that you want to find hi great so, extremely, high grade double-digit. Resource, grade we've, been mining high grade down for three years the. Interesting thing with respect to the mine life is that, we started, we published, a feasibility study in 2014. Which, showed that we had a seven-year mine life at a hundred thousand ounces of year so seven hundred thousand ounces in production we've, been in production now for three years we have produced over three hundred and fifty thousand ounces and. We still have a seven-year mind life with, with, 800. So. You can tent you're continuing, to you know drill out and step. Out and work out you, know how you can develop that that, body there and I can but you mentioned, when we spoke last there are a couple of other targets, you're looking at in, and around yeah I'm okay absolutely, how's that going you know it's going well so we've done a very. Active program. Of generating, new targets which were setting up to start targeting and, drilling in, the second half of this year I think for as with a lot of projects, that brownfields, potential, is always the most compelling if, we can find another deposit, like legacy, south or the 55, zone which are currently in operation then.
The Returns, to, our shareholders and the company should, be very good so that's that's motivating, the search in, and around so. Let's get into some numbers there with, yarmulkes people understand that cuz yeah I you, know I've talked about short. Mine, life but you're you're extending that out slowly and surely you're you've, got a good team there looked, at the track record of of, delivering. Its mining mining it's tough it's. Hard work there's no gonna eat easy shortcuts, here but you've been kind of building, that out you. Hope to grow, that and extend the mine life even further so, what are the things that you know you are looking at with your team on a daily basis what's the things that kind of keeping you awake at night in, terms of needing, to deliver oh really. Continuing. To live a consistent, production is, the key for us so if you look at our track record we've tried to establish a record, of under, promising and over delivering I think, if you look at our first two four years of production being. 2017. 2018. We. Both. Use we increased our guidance and then came in above the top end of that guy arranged this, year regarding. To you, know what, would be record, production at yamamoto their, guidance range is one hundred and forty five thousand, two hundred and fifty five thousand ounces and we're, very much on track to, deliver that goddess again yeah i mean i'd encourage. Viewers, to go, to page four of your current powerpoints, got some quite interesting numbers, on there. It's. Gonna back, that up but say. I mean it's been a cash, cow for you you created some enough, cash. Is I think the shareholder be happy with what you built, there it's. Enabled, you to have enough cash to look. At the second, asset which is Siqueiros money tell us a bit about what. You saw there and why you've gone for that sure they're, really place to I guess, they're a real strategy which is to offer per share growth, in. Both resources. Reserves production, and most importantly, earnings and cash flow slide, four of our current, presentation I think is a good starting point where those on a per share basis yeah we've gone and it's some pretty impressive growth in, terms of production and, especially resources, so what. I think happens with a lot of mining companies and this is sometimes why I think investors, may have a bit of a jaded view of the, mining sector is that the, mining companies chase growth pretty. Much any costs and a lot of that comes with issuing shares to, acquire new. Development, assets or new producing, assets yeah and we think that it's very difficult to, deliver long-term sustainable. Value doing. Such a way because if you're buying someone else's producing. Mine or, you're buying someone else's development, project they've probably surfaced, a lot of the potential value we'd, like to do that ourselves we, believe we have a team we have a good cash flow so we'd like to take an asset maybe, at an earlier stage invest.
Capital In it invest the expertise, the, risk it move along and, ultimately make it more value so how do you how do you do that because obviously no one sells good assets right well if they do they don't sell it cheap so you've, got to come in at an earlier effect phase. Makes. Sense but. There's. A lot of crap out there too right. So how do what, are you looking, for that says this, is the one out of the, hundred that we've looked at yes well you're absolutely right there is a lot of crap, out there with we've popped the hood on, a lot of assets both operating, and development, and exploration assets, and to be honest often, not as advertised. And I think that's that's something that we're concerned. About with. Cigala which is our first acquisition I think it's a really good case study to understand how we look at, abilities, and what we want to do it, came out of new crest new, crest is Australia's, as many people know Australia's, largest gold producer it's, the third largest gold producer in the world and really, has a strong, exploration. Focus I mean new crest has discovered the. Majority, of its assets over time so it's really focused on exploration exploration. Is held in high regard it's the way they sell its here so, it probably looked like it didn't make their size threshold right as I mentioned the third largest gold company in the world the, asset now we just published a new resource at 500 nearly five hundred fifty thousand ounces so. I guess they couldn't see visibility, to the five, million plus ounces, that, a company of that size needs. To be able to justify, the effort but you're not looking for that it's, certainly not day one you. Sure. That'd be nice but what, this, is what I'm trying to get out so investors get a sense of what you're thinking is, here. You know you're not looking for you. Know world beaters you know global. The scale of assets you're looking for a kind of midsize. Profitable. Low. Low, operating, cost height you know, reasonable. ASIC, to this and piecing. Together a, you. Say this picture, so you mean tell us about the thinking that that's what investors want to understand you know where how do you think about these things and, why does that make sense and how are you gonna deliver it sure so I think we have, this sort of the belief that little fish takes a sweet yerim, oh yeah in, and, we think it's not done and we're finding more gold there but it's not it's, not a world, scale world, class scale that's it although very profitable, so we've taken that model in said okay this, isn't interesting, we believe this is a nifty model this is a way that we can operate in the competitive, landscape and. Still add value, on an appropriate risk level basis so, buying. Said Whaler at just north of half a million ounces now, for twenty million dollars of cash now and that's very important to us because we were able to pay cash that we generated, at yerim okay so no dilution no dilution and I know the share account has barely risen, in, in the last two years to aurora's so we have an issue she's, in, terms of a traditional equity of financing, since, early 2015. Yeah and we want to keep it that way we want the owners of Rob's goal to, enjoy, increasing. Share. Of resources, and reserves and profitability and earnings and cash flow yeah as opposed to having to share that with, new shareholders, yeah they've come in on the back of the group of a diluted financing, okay so segue, Allah presents itself, as an opportunity we can get into it a reasonable price it's. 20 million dollars on the, Barrelhead that we paid to new crest another. Ten million dollars payable upon first production so, we think the interests, the risk is shared, there if the project doesn't make the the production hurdle then, we don't pay new for us ten million if it does we'll be happy to pay that ten million dollars for, sure but but but let's let okay if you don't your 20 million into, this a bit, with cash it generated us then on to loot of exercise, but why, it's 20 million a good price well we believe it's we believe it's an excellent price so we believe it's as I say new, Chris were motivated, to sell because they didn't see the long-run pathway, we.
Can Still have a very good asset anything, above, what we found today so we believe today as it currently stands said, well there is an economic asset and will be the next goldmine that you know moko builds but the risks was half, a million right absolute so is that I mean I normally, I wouldn't look at anything under a million so so what what do you say and to be honest I think that's the sort of thinking that we're trying to take advantage of great yes, has just built, a new project in. Cote d'Ivoire courses single regions being I think very successful for them it's, actually a smaller resource and is lower, grade than what we have today I said well so I think there's a good case study that this can be worthwhile look at case studies neurology. Whatever it that doesn't answer, the question back what you were looking at what are you seeing over and above the data the unique, Russell's giving you which says I think we can make this bigger yes, and we see so the resource would put out five hundred thirty thousand ounces of 2.4, grams yeah these will, get bigger from the recent drilling that we've done so we've done some additional drilling recently, in the last few months over above what's included in that resource right and then we publish that, but. That's a kind of post the event thing I'm intrigued by again the thinking so you agreed, 20 million bucks plus 10 million bucks with, the data you, have, the trial results that you inherited, or you you were allowed to look at before you decided to make their decision what, did, you understand, that others didn't, well I think we understood, I think it's, probably buying, option. Value at a reasonable price when, I say reasonable, price I mean when we bought a project, that we thought would be economic, and we could make money off of what we saw if it didn't get any bigger that, okay five. Hundred and thirty five hundred fifty thousand ounces doesn't, ring a lot of bells for ya but when you come from a company that outside, of our size it's still a meaningful increase, in, production, yeah we're realistic, about where. We are and how people yeah so we saw our, basic house was, squared away with a with a economic. Asset we, then saw that there was a series of other potential. Deposits, that new crest had done work on all, around subway, that if you look in our presentation, you'll see a map with, the concentric circles, so within ten kilometers of, the, antenna deposit much is the current deposit, that has a resource a defensive whele yeah there's you, know there's. Over a dozen targets. The new crest is delineated some of which are quite advanced, mainly. Boulder an agouti right, those, results, out earlier this week right some additional drilling that we've done and, you see very. Attractive, high-grade, over, broad intervals, close to surface so, we're very confident, at, some of these and we were very confident when we caught the addition bit of the project so space seventeen of the PowerPoint I think that's right so if you look at that so we were very confident, that some of these additional. Satellite targets, would make the grade grades, become additional, feed sources for, a central milk so it wasn't a question that we had to grow antenna in the resource yeah, it didn't have to make that any bigger what we wanted to see was. Some of these additional elements that would improve the economic got would you've done that deal if you had to borrow the money. Yes. I think so yeah, okay if we put, out the borrowing capacity I think I mean, we're, relatively, agnostic, to capital, I mean if you borrow the money you have to repay us I mean we have a relatively. Modest gearing. Level so, we'll be able to do that but there's a very different conversation with, Cheryl's are you going around borrowing some money diluting, the company down, here, appreciate. Your market cap is where it is but. Versus, actions, we've got the cash we're gonna give this a go because the optionality that's good to us yeah no I think that's right and I think being able to to. Go to new crest and say, here's. A cash offer yeah, I think that was a competitive, advantage for us you. Could close the dialog quite yeah so so so and, we always look at where we see in the competitive, landscape so, we've. We think we've we've got an area that sort of flies under the competition, of the larger companies even. Sort of the mid-cap companies that, are well capitalized, at probably looking for projects bigger than us and I don't want I don't want the viewers to think that we're deliberately, looking for small projects we don't think that on balance. Unless. Competition. And. There's less competition comes you know a price doesn't get inflated that's right and then Chris, and I don't know what other offers they received but I imagine that would have been offers from very, junior companies, we've.
Had A lot of descript in it so a new crest would have ended up being. A large shareholder of a junior without a cash flow and then, really sort, of hostage to the success of that company being, out of Finance and take the project forward with us it, was a clean exit you've, known the new quest people, going to say and I think they they've seen what we've got we've done it yamamoto, and, i think for a large company and especially my mind you chris leaving. A good legacy of where they've been is important, so they wanted to see it go to a good home people. Who will be you, know good operators, good stewards, and we've. Been able to demonstrate that in the kina far so the, Minister for mines of Burkina Faso actually wrote to his counterpart, in Cote d'Ivoire giving. Us a recommendation, in the endorsement, yeah, we're always good I'm always good answers, say, new. Crest if they got are, they selling on more assets, in West Africa that you're aware of I still have a. Fiduciary. So. We yes so a week okay, so that so that helps us understand a little bit about your. Thinking you're the small fish Thomson tastes, sweeter I'm and. You think you've got a team to be able to extract, the value there and there's a big kind of list. Of things, to look at in that portfolio that come along with Sequoia I mean. If you if you go forward so I mean talked a little bit about what attracted us to the asset hmm if you look if you roll forward over, the next couple of years so we, will deliver a preliminary. Economic assessment, later, this year and, I think the opportunity, is that you know in talking through analysts, and investors who, live. In rocks killed a lot of them are still carrying this. Asset at twenty million dollars in their in their valuation what estate so, I think when we table, a PA, and, not two to, front-run what that will look like but I think it's it's, gonna. Well. Well it's interesting PPA, is a different different you, know people have different views of PAS in terms of their accuracy. And their, relevance. Of them so yes some people might like have some people may wait for the next step okay but let's, let's talk this over.
Actually. Before we talk about drill, results come on third a second, is your. Share price, you. Took a big hit we talked about this in the last conversation. We'll put a link up to that interview, but let's, talk about that here you share price took a bit of a hit, because. Of some selling. You. Believe well, what do you what, do you think would tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. People, to explain because they look if they look at the chart they're gonna go wait there's, something going, on here but. It's explainable, so what absolutely, so so it's been quite an eventful 12, months for, rocks, gold in terms of the share register. Probably. A lot of your viewers would be would have seen this rippling, through junior mining companies when energy. Lost. Them maybe at mandates two three yep. And that went to Wellington and we've. Talked. A little bit about that so that was announced I think in July last year when. We were training at a point of 40, and, we're. Not looking to map, to make excuses, but when you look at the share graphic, performance basically. From the day of that announcement, it, trailed from a dollar 40 down to 70 cents or there abouts as the, stock is that overhang leaned on our stock and, that it's. A little bit there's a bit of a subtle difference to tap into because we. Historically. Have been a fairly thinly traded company, so we've got a good. Number of very long-term oil, shares your own big chunks Rock Scott and don't. Sell them and don't you know don't buy more days sell more they're happy with your position yeah, we've had a lot of we've had limited, trading, yeah but well and so when you have a your second largest shareholder loses. Its mandate yeah everyone expects it to be sold definitely. Was yeah, that's a bit of a problem for you yeah so that predictable. Response share. Price down that.
Cleared In late January, so there was a 4d a deal. Done and a block, traded, which. Went to a lot of good homes, long-term, strong hand-to-hands, and that. Really, marks the share, price has turned around quite a bit since then and that's been very hopeful for us and what that's also done is it's really increased the velocity of our trading so our share trading has, gone up considerably, yeah and the the upshot of that is, interesting. Because one of the one of the key sort of structural shifts in. The junior. Resource, market, has really been the rise of passive investing and that's that's not just really. Safe yeah we've, talked about them pre bit previous years. But so we're well on track for, inclusion in, the junior ETF the GD XJ at, the next rebalance, so, how do you know that well, so you, know you look at the the, criteria for entry. And it's pretty straightforward it is a market capitalization, of greater than 150, million u.s. so. That's a check for rock school and you, need to have 1, million an average of 1 million dollars per day traded. For three consecutive chords yeah, they're not calendar quarters so this current quarter finishes in August but, we've already plead. That hurdle, for two quarters, well, halfway through the third quarter and, we're training it over one and a half million u.s. a day right, as we speak so if. That's, it that's a big deal the GDX a is a big deal because you're looking at a significant. New shareholder, to the register, right and also that facilitates, other share alright I think you may be looking, at being an, index and, then. Right. Okay well that you know I hope that comes because I think for retail, family. It's always some high net worth that's. A big deal yes it shouldn't be understated. Okay, so Joe. We, will watch, out and see if that happens no generally. You your. Your. I'm looking I'm looking at things like you're a sick and your, overheads. And your cast Nietzschean a and all of that sort of good stuff and, I always ask the. CEOs. In, terms what what, do they think. Genius. Should be paying. Their. Board, their, management. You know and how do they remunerated. It. Incentivize, on deliverables, or is that actually. I'll just take a big salary here, how do you guys look. At that how do you approach that so, I think you, know I mean there's, a lot of commentary on what's the appropriate quite rightly shows, quite rightly so know it's a it can be a hot-button item for a lot of people I think, with rocks go we have a combination. Of, a fixed, invariable, paid and, really, it's fixed, pays you. Know a salary and the rest is really to people at risk and there's, two components to the risk base salary there's the short term and long term short. Term is really set around delivering metrics. So for, myself and for my team that, rocks gold where, it's in devised to on, a variety of metrics and safety, is, first and foremost mmm-hmm production.
Targets, You. Know making, sure we hit various, milestones in, terms of developments, he said who sets those and you take white board it's. The board set. The targets by words they're it mean rated no, no that's no so the board the board don't have those sort of targets right for the executive, I. Got. It okay so you have you have to deliver and, if you can there's a range and if you don't deliver then you don't get that component, of your short term incentive, right then on the long term incentive, is essentially, fully tied to, shareholder, returns and, he watches the Watchers as it works i I've been talking. To company. Let's, say in the last two weeks can I keep it vague you. Know the the the they. Have a little bit of production. They. Have, a market cap of circa. Somewhere. Between 10 300 million and, they're bored they're bored pays themself as much as the Kirkland Lake board like, wow that's. That's. Pretty ballsy low. Revenue, business. So you know so I can, sort of see we get a lot, of communication. From investors, are saying well you know what are. The rules who, manages. That who oversees, that because people forget to read the prospectus when, they're putting the money in if, there's a private, placement or if there's a fundraise of any description I mean it's. Just interesting how juniors, manage that yes, I guess who's. Watching The Watcher and it's not it's not an exact science but I think the the rise of the proxy advisor has, been interesting, in recent years so, a lot of which, was a lot of you viewers are aware a lot, of the low fans sort. Of go to it are advised by proxy advisors, and these proxy advisors comb through the, management circulars, and annual, reports to see what the pain, mix is yeah and they basically have a recommended, approach. I have a template, yeah and that's largely in, line with what I was. Saying so there's things that they don't like they, prefer whole, share units over options, because, they're less diluted things, like that they want, to see performance. Metrics that if, your company outperforms. Its peer set that's good underperforms. Then there's less reward yeah, so so they want to see that. The management team you. Know makes some game and shareholders. And the company's doing well and feels them paint rights on the on the downside we're. Here to help ambassadors, understand why they should invest in rocks gold so, let's get back to that picture painting, you, can't you got your oh my coat it's, you're. Enhancing. That you're continuing to work and extend that life of mine very high gray very low a sec, it's, a good solid project and you will keep, sweating that and, it's producing cash till I give you the freedom to do things you've just bought sequela you. Like what you see you explain, why you. Bought it why you paid the price that you do. How. Do those things set in terms, of your vision, a, complete. Picture the, overall picture of, what rocks. Gold could, be, okay. Without. Getting into there we're going to get into development, it's actually we will never sell it's you know that's don't, do that do, the reality. What are the options, for you if you this out the way that you cater. Sure, so so the first and foremost is, to try and make as many things as you can. Put. Them under your control right, again so there's a lot of variables, that we can't control yeah you know business of price absolutely. But. What we can control is, our, capital, structure to a certain extent and that's, very important and and. On the theme of the why we went to sequela the the beauty, of this project is we can build this out without. Raising, another dollar of equity and, that's as I said we paid cash because we didn't want to issue shares we. From, cash on their balance sheet, and cash from, your omocha and probably, a combination, of. Financing.
Or Project finance arrangement, yeah we should be able to build solola without. Counting their shareholders, and asking them to dip into their pocket right fund outgrowth right, and I think that's important so so that's that's that's, that's. Really a sort of set in stone for us that's what we want to do so ideally, we, would like to find a third, project yep, and, if we could rinse. And repeat this, is leyla style of experience, we would do that yeah because I think we could then schedule, that to come in after say sub Layla yeah and again, if we could do that, by. Minimizing. The or avoiding, dilution totally and then, use cash flow from Yarra mocha and sequela to, then build. That we're, actually starting to look like a real business as opposed, to a mining company because, we're taking earnings. Genuine, cash flow and reinvesting. At an increasing, that's. That's. What interests me that's what interested me when we talked last online. It. The. Model, was, different, it. Seems to be a business. Which understands the needs of investors. So, you're, not asking them to continually, fork. Out or diluting, them, you're. Creating, your cash to give you option, ality which, is great are. We gonna seek dividends, at some point so, an interesting thing so a book that I've read and I've read it a couple times now. Yeah. Yeah, it's really, talked about CEOs. Have been very impactful and and, tries to sort of divine what was different about these. Connectors. All these CEOs who yeah, really, compare, and, made extreme. Returns, for their shareholders and, one of those is really they. They don't typically pay dividends they favor, buybacks, so the form of return of capital to shareholders is, buybacks okay, but what they do is, they take the earnings from their business and they reinvest, those earnings, allocate, their capital, into, future growth and, that's what we will show so it's not I don't think it's a new I know. But it's important for people to understand the way you think because there are different ways you can come out there some people look at cost-cutting, exercises. Some reinvesting. In infrastructure, dividends. For some, buybacks. Effectively. The same thing so yeah okay so. We like so, so we see so, my main job the principal job that I have is really, allocating. Capital now. When you're a single asset as, we were with the Orinoco yeah it's pretty difficult so for a man with a Hammer Every Problem looks like a nail no drill, around. Yeah yep. So, so now with this abuela coming on we've now taken, our first step into being able to to really establish a competition for. Capital in, within, rocks gold so, the exploration, team at Yamamoto, needs, to be able to justify why their targets, as. Good if not better than the targets abuela, and then we can adjudicate. Vice-president. Paul leading and, direct. The capital to where we think the best return is both. In terms of absolute returns sort of temporal, like you, know what's the faster, path to, a return etcetera so I think that's really set up an interesting dynamic for our company that.
We Now have the. Opportunity. To to direct cash flow in a different direction I see it comes, back to remembering. I like the fact that you said you're not a mining, company that's. Great it's, one. Of the very few people to recognize, this in this space and, you know what they know existence for I like, the approach to, growth. Capital it's. A question, of what's. That eventually going to mean to new. People coming in and. Existing, people the, shareholders. How. Do they see, a return how are you gonna get them that return. It's. Mean that you know said they asked this question of well maybe I should have put my money somewhere else so why stick with you why. Come into, so, there's, two paths so say so, in my career, generally. The the. Happiest, path to realizing returns, has been to be taken out. Well. Is that true these days because the multiples. Are not what they once were so what. Would you think they would be well I think that's because we're in a cyclical, business so, for. Me the, biggest returns come from, being, able to work, within the cycle so, it's, classic I mean it's easier said than done buy low sell high you've done it a couple of times that's a note, yes. That's right so we have so we've had three exits one, always characterizes, as an honorable draw and two, which were I think very successful for, everyone, involved, MPI. Mines back in the early 2000s, and frontier, gold yeah had a very good team they are working with some very good mining, professionals, and Newmont. Acquired, frontier, in 2011, and, and it was really my board a really good project yeah, but it was a good time to sell a project but you weren't CEO then okay, you weren't running that you're part of a team so, today. What. Do you think you need to create to. Put yourself in a position to, if you wanted be, taken out so much so my white board has, has, three projects, three operating projects on yeah and then a potentially, world-class, scale, asset in, the, future. Okay so we've, taken our step towards getting two of those so equity our second one right sequentially. We'll build that I would, love to find another. Subway level or something similar great hiding, in someone's portfolio, today but where's the where's that that we are making investors, money because spending money on stuff, great. How. Does this three three plus one world-class, asset, convert, into a big payday for investors, well I think so, I, mean. I think compounding. Those earnings, and making, sure that they are share county fair share counters stay tight then, those three, hundred and seventy four million shares that we have on issue today are. Earning a lot more cash now I think you get down to a debate maybe, it's a bit more philosophical, as to whether people want cash, in their hands that or whether they want to have, that cash reinvested. And continually. Growth at a higher and higher rate I'd say both because it mitigates, their exposure, no no that's right so I think so so for us we, think as long as there are opportunities. To reinvest capital, at sort of the returns we expect to see from Sequoia, and mm-hmm, project number three we would recommend continuing, to do that I, would like to ultimately.
Have An asset that's in the pipeline that, is has. The potential to be a real game-changer and, that's probably you. Know taking some geological risk, and investing. In it and you know we're moving along and, and, ultimately I mean one of the case studies that I like to look at is was, read-back a very, successful company made a lot of money for its shareholders had, a good mine at Toronto and Ghana yeah, doing around two hundred thousand ounces then. They had a massive, project at easiest. In Mauritania, just. Proved eventually. Proved irresistible to, Kinross yeah and they came in a page something in the order I think eight billion dollars so, the shareholders, who are seeing it read back five years earlier probably didn't envision eight million dollar payday but. I think that's sort of the I think if you get the timing right and you've done a good job building out compelling, business well. Yeah obviously that's the dream because that's the one a really, good example. Putting. In today's language. What. Are you trying to be I mean you think. Billion dollar company from where you are today that's you, got a ways to go right yes say but. I mean I think to be a five dollar stop yes. God needs to take its 317. Million. Shares yeah, to around math, around 1.6, 1.7, billion right. Yeah from. Now. Yeah. That makes him a little ambitious, but, from what I've seen, in the past when, the when the market and the cycle is in your favor then, there's the opportunity to make an outsize return yeah, that's what we're sort of looking to do so so we don't know when or, if that will happen again now if history is any guide it, will happen you just hard to predict when so, what we're going to do in the meantime is build, a company. That will be irresistible both, to investors, along the journey and also potentially, a large acquirer. In the future okay. Thank. You. Let's. Talk about the future. Your. Last son you wouldn't give me a number. About. The gold market because, you because you've been around too long that, you know not fall for that one but. The gold market essentially Sperry has started meeting you, know there are some signs, it's. Heading, the right way you. Talk about timing, a second ago, how. Long do, you think the cycle, will last where do you think it's just unpredictable these days look. I think it's I think it's very it's definitely, unpredictable, so I will generally stick to my my, practice, of not providing thangkas. Thank you certainly not numbers thank you lot times I think. As. A broad, direction. Of travel, yeah it looks extremely positive, for precious metals, I think, we've, we've seen a ton for 1,800, bucks I think, that's well within the range I don't, know when but if, you look at if you look at gold in the in the 2000s, when it came off its lows yeah around 250, at the turn of the millennium it. Ran pretty strongly, up in that and then when. We, had the GFC, immediately. Around the GFC God didn't perform very well at all and then, you had a bunch of data collection and then, gold took off and there's, you, know come back down again but still pretty, high I mean I was north of $1400. Historically, it's not a bad roll price yeah but I think as we see there's a pen did he start, to unfold. Simple. Banks looking, after their balance sheet and maybe some normality return then, gold stands a very good chance of seeing. New highs, well. Be happy days if it does John. Really. Appreciate, your time great, insight. Into the, business and your thinking which is what I think people appreciate, understanding. Thea the nature, of the the people behind the decision wing let's do we'll. See you again soon okay. Thanks. Very much for watch and we hope you enjoyed that and if you did please click the button in the corner of the screen to subscribe to our youtube channel you, can also catch us on our website cracks and bastard calm and crux cast on podcast, series plus, most days you can count us on linkedin and twitter we'd love getting your feedback so please keep, that coming, and we'll speak to you again soon. Oh.