My Top Student Started With $1500*
What's, up Tim sites here with timbre Thani thanks. For joining me but this, is like what our fourth round table. No. We. Do these things because we just we just talk there's no script there's no planning, we just talk and you, know you can learn from our experiences, I think that you can learn a lot from his journey. And my journey and, we see, things a little differently, but there's no one, magic, right, formula, in this game do your group for sure yeah I think I've said it before like I'm always amazed how like every successful, trader I know know. To do, things the exact same way like everyone has their own favorite setups, like there's, no secret formula like, you find what works for you and you, exploit it and this is what you know makes trading, so difficult and teaching trading because you, know timber Tony can show you everything that he's done and you, just might not get it I'll show you everything I've done and you just might not be like this is weird like he is primarily a short seller these days I used, to be a short seller I've gravitated, towards. Buying he, can't really buy that well dip buys especially, we've had like opposite journeys because I started, off like almost primarily as a buyer yeah I know I've like gravitated, more and more towards the dark side as you'd say I mean, I can't stop Anakin. We know how it turns out so, it stinks, but no, there's is not bad to be a short seller it's not bad to be a buyer, why, do you think people have misconceptions where they're like you, know you treat penny stops you should never buy it all the fundamentals, are terrible well, I mean they're right that all the fun levels are terrible but like the horror stories you hear people who buy them like lotto tickets yeah who, say, like who believe in the technology really, who think like you know whatever the story is that it's actually gonna go somewhere so, I think it's okay, to buy penny stocks as long as you know the reason why you're buying it as long as you have a plan like notice, that oh I hear this company has good technology, let me just buy, it maybe it'll work out that's the, wrong way to buy but if there's a multi-month, breakout we the catalyst with strong volume maybe there's like five newsletters, promoting, it like that's not a bad time to buy for a trade, you just have to differentiate, between trade, and investment, first sure yeah, I mean I'll buy those no problem but like I always have the mentality of like I'm holding a grenade yeah I better get rid of it before it blows up in my face I like that so think of every penny stock as a grenade and especially short sellers they love it because they're waiting for the grenade that's low pressure they can't wait they're like pull the pin pull the pin, why. Do you think most people have problems with short selling as opposed to buying most beginners. And newbies really, favored buyer um, I, mean I remember I I felt like it was really complicated, at first like it's a weird concept to wrap your head around you know you're selling before you're buying yeah and you, know I I really, tried to think too hard about it and I eventually got to the point where I was like okay you know what I'm just gonna click this button and all I need to know is that I want the stock to go down yeah and I kind of like simplified, over myself a little bit and like, you probably do want to like get a little more into the details eventually, but at first you know that's, about, the extent of what you need to know as far as execution, is, concerned and then, just remember to cut your losses because, you know if you are a stubborn, short seller you, you, know it might not happen today or tomorrow or next month but eventually your. Account goes boom so this is a big thing where a lot of short sellers say ok every penny stock goes down why, not just short and just hold it because you, know you gave an example the other day we're here in Rome we're teaching some students in, person if you want to learn in person email admin at Timothy Sykes calm but, you know you basically said look if 99, and the 100, penny stocks go down right.
That, One that doesn't and you keep averaging, up on your short you blow up all it takes is one for you to blow up so, even, if the situation works, again, and again and again that one time when you're risking too much when you keep averaging. In and you keep taking a big position that's, all it takes for you to lose everything mm-hmm. Yeah it's funny I can't remember the ticker now without one was but I remember the prices like it was it was 350, was high a day yeah and I thought it had put in a lower high i snort, sold and then. It started to break past 350, I was out at 351, like I am NOT playing around in that situation, day one of a runner and, it it ultimately did top out at 370. And then fade back off like all day so the. Problem that I got into when I first it is I would kind of see that happen you know more times than not and that reinforced, the bad habit, so I was like I was like oh I'm so smart I'm not cutting the losses and I'm getting a game later and then. You know what. Was maybe six months later is when my reckoning came on like and that was you know we've talked about it a lot but almost negative, three well a lot, of people don't know your story just give a brief overview, of what you've done because I know your story a lot of people do but some people they're just finding you and they're like why should we why, should we care what you have to say okay, yeah brief overview, is, started. In. Well, first trade with May 2011, fifteen. Hundred dollars of my own money but I had money borrowed, from my parents to keep other accounts, open you know I was under pattern day trader rule I wanted as many day trades as possible, so, I had three brokers, open nine, day trades per week but, the the agreement with my parents was I only take $1,500. Positions, or you know whatever my current, amount of the accounts, are like I can't, I can't actually trade their money it's just there so I get more day trades per week catch it and I. Mean. I in, the, first six. Months of trading you know up until November 2011. I, had blown up my 1500 once I had to refund and I. Was, just really struggling and then, six months of nothingness. Just, for those men and I had studied three months of video lessons before that so you know February 2011, is when I got into your silver so people who think that like oh it's, gonna be so easy the, man took. Six, months to, screw up yes, I mean like it was you know from from watching my first video lesson to like, okay I feel. Like I'm starting to get consistent, that's nine months and when. You're starting betrayed especially. If you want to start full-time you've really got to think you know like, everyone's. Different but like go. In with a conservative, estimate of like can I go a year without making, money, look, that's you, know and maybe even losing, money so when two dudes because you were silver and then you joined the challenge when did you join the channel, was, like August 2012, okay at that point I'm like at about 100k, okay so you, learned a little you practice a little then you joined the challenge was the challenge helpful for you yeah it was it was cool I especially, liked goods webinars because back then I was buying pumps, and that was something that good had done videos on and gotten really in-depth into so like, I was already like pretty good at buying pumps would help me kick some things like a step further and the challenge fYI has changed, a little bit over the years now you get two to four webinars every week tim Brittani every now and then does a webinar Marc crook does webinars Michael good does guest webinars I do webinars so you're. Building on a lot of knowledge Stephan, ducks who just passed two million in profits actually said that it's easier, to learn now because he has so many different strategies to, learn from you were at this was I mean this was when we first started so you didn't have that many people you didn't have that many resources have you seen that like the challenge has changed, a little bit like that how much Sharon was really useful yeah I mean challenges you're like back when I was starting like you know that there were it was like basically you and good yeah and crook a little bit um but like.
I Was you know I also like branched out into other services early and I was trying to just like learn everywhere and most of them I learned like nothing at all but like I was able to take like little bits and pieces from multiple, different strategies, and that's the key sorry, to cut you up it's so so important, to learn from everybody. Because, there's no one magic, formula, you have to piece stuff together and you might say like oh I don't like this guy's strategy, but then you start getting used to it like we both change you were primarily, a buyer now, your gender is primarily shorter now I'm a buyer you evolve and you adapt and you see what feels right over, time so don't feel like you have to trade any one way and, you have to stick with that strategy because the market is always changing, and you can always be changing yeah I always say like your results guide you like it's great to try a lot of stuff early but you've got to do that with small size like don't try a bunch of stuff early and lose 10 grand like that's insane like, I tried, a bunch of stuff early and I lost 1500, and that's like a very recoverable, amount like I had worked a summer job and made, like 4 grand that summer so like you know I didn't even lose my summer, earnings, from state farms so this is a good point because a lot of people say okay how, should I trade way that first and I think in Bali you said what was it three thousand, we did a three thousand, I think it was three thousand yeah you know I'm the point our I don't even like to give a number I just you know it depends on you it depends on your life situation it depends on what you can afford to lose but I really believe keep, the loss is as small as possible early, because then. You learn where you're succeeding where you're failing and then you can really hone in and attack the one area are two areas where you're the best I know this is an exciting information, for you guys you're like I want it now I want to go big and we're like no calm, down look at his shirt okay look, at his shirt it says chill out that's, how you have to be especially in the beginning you have to chill out, and just let, the plays come to you because you have to understand like we're trading penny stocks there's not a perfect play every single second so if you're learning to trade you know Facebook or Amazon you, can trade them every single second because there's volatility, there's pricing I don't recommend that but with penny stocks you have to wait for these really solid, supernovas. These solid opportunities, that don't come about every single second, every single minute every single hour so a lot of your study is not just what's happening in real time but studying from past setups, have you studied the past a lot oh yeah absolutely. What do you you talk about your spreadsheets, for saying because he's always doing these spreadsheets, I don't do spreadsheets but he does I mean my spreadsheets, I basically do them just to try to answer questions so, like for example when I first got in Nasdaq trading, I had. No experience there whatsoever I had no idea what to expect and I. Knew. That I wanted to find I wanted to trade the most volatile ones though like I kind of have into it with penny stocks so, I just started you know by asking a question like I would take the top percent, gainers every day from you know listed stocks you, know maybe there were up 20% or more and the question I was asking was how do these perform the next day you know how do they perform on day 2 and. You. Know I wasn't even looking for a set up at this point I just wanted to answer that question cool, and that, basic, tracking showed me that the vast majority of the time day two was.
A Weaker day although there were exceptions and from, there I could take it a step further and then start trying to look for specific strategies, you know based on whether the stock had gapped up or down the next day you know there's just a million different ways you can go so you're creating a hypothesis. And then you're testing it testing, you testing you yeah. By the end I mean I'm more it's more like I'm asking questions and, then trying to find answers to these questions to, form a hypothesis, whoa, whoa. I. Think that's that's really good and I think that, a lot of people don't, really get that they're just like give me a hot stock give, me a good pattern to memorize, you, know I get, quiet we get questions all the time like what percent, down do, you need first off to be worth a dip by and I'm like it's not like a specific percent, like there's different kinds of catalysts like earnings, winners pump and dumps what's the overall market, doing what's the flow and how much is it trading what time of day is it, just. Explain like your your most. Commonly. Used indicators. Your top five indicators, I mean. Here's. A whole DVD by the way called trading tickers where he explains everything I highly encourage you watch it I'll post a link just below this video too okay, so some, of your favorite favorite indicators, um I would say, major. Daily, resistances, on a daily chart no like I'm looking back on the daily chart it's a candlestick chart long do you look back at. Least a year but. I'm looking back and looking for days where there was huge volume, you know unusual, volume spikes on the daily chart and where, the stock failed on those days this is actually an important point sorry to interrupt but if. You're looking back at key points, you want a lot of volume right pressure so if a stock just hits a random number in the past but there's really little volume it probably, isn't that significant, because there's not a lot of volume there's not a lot of people that, cared about that number but if there's a huge volume day and there was a day high like that number, really kind of sticks I think yeah, I mean, other than that they're like it's it's basic, support basic resistance, um I don't really get into many in-depth indicators, like I dabble, with a view app a little bit which is a value. Weighted average price I believe is what that stands for but. It's not like a huge, part of my trading it just kind of helps me form a bias a little bit and then, previous closing price like green to red red degree, why. Do you think so many people complicate. Things with I've, heard of like 200, different indigo there's a ton yeah, and I. Mean, I think, everyone, is just looking for something dis extra, that will give them an edge yeah the Silver Bullet and I'm, not gonna say it's not out there because I've barely, looked to be honest like again it comes back to what works for you yeah so, it's cool if you want to try out lots of different indicators definitely. By all means do it but I wouldn't try out like five different indicators, at the same time you know to take them one by one and start to get a feel for what, is working for you what you're comfortable yeah I Bollinger. Bands RSI. MACD. Moving, averages yeah, Fibonacci retracements. Ichimoku, clouds. There's. So much stuff I will say that the Fibonacci. Retracements. It's like thirty-eight percent off the high those actually do work because I think that there's so many like Fibonacci freaks, out there huh that people value, it a lot of this is a self-fulfilling, prophecy so, if enough, people believe, like okay, stocks breaking, out to 52-week, highs there's, a lot of traders who just buy that so if everyone, is buying that that pushes the stock price up so you kind of want to know what other people are, looking at because that can influence the price see I, will say though the penny stocks this, is kind of little trick where a lot of people see something pop up on their scans like 52, week high or, day high but, it's only like buy a penny or two it's, not a convincing, breakout, and with penny stocks for, me to buy a breakout, I need convincing cuz, I get faked out a lot there's a lot of fake outs the other day I was buying CH oo f it broke out by one or two cents over three months and then it came right back down it was a fake outbreak at so, how convincing. Of a breakout do you need before like buying I handle. A don't need convincing because I have tracked breakouts, enough and I'm comfortable enough with breakouts, where I'm just taking my shot like if it's giving me the and you know I've let's be clear on what breakout is like when I say breakout I am talking about like a past daily. Level that's significant, like a big, multi-day, breakout like I don't consider a breakout, like oh it's breaking out past the mornings highs yeah, like okay, maybe there's some kind of play there but that's not the one where I feel like I have the major edge so.
If I'm getting the breakout I like the multi-day break I'm taking a shot like I've tracked it enough where I I know exactly, what my risk should be I know exactly what, I'm looking for how to handle it and I. Feel like you know even though I'm gonna lose some of the time on them because no setup works 100% of the time I will absolutely come, out ahead over you, know over 10 20 30 times playing why, did you not buy CH, oo F the other day because that was a multi-month, great yeah but it was also mid day so CH o f it had a couple things going against it for me one, was that I had been playing it last month when, I was trying to break out past the dollar area, and I, think I had a couple trades that were breakeven, on it and then one loss, so it had already frustrated me and I'd already seen like wow this thing really kind of sucks on it to all today breakout attempts the, other thing was that the nature of how it got to this breakout it hid like open the day at ninety cents and basically run straight up to the dollar ten breakout level with no pullbacks at all so that's, not really my kind of breakout like I have, also seen that like the ones that have the big straight-up spikes into a malted a breakout level usually, fail the first time so I was willing to let it have its a little midday multi-day, breakout attempt, my. Plan for that was to not attack midday and if, it had held back or if it had held together on a pullback, consolidated. And then, retested, that I think it was a 113 high that except you know then then sure I'll go for it but the first attempt there on a straight-up spike not really my thing so I forced that train a little bit it was my bad but I controlled, the losses I lost three cents a share roughly. 600, bucks the next day I made three times that nearly 2,000 so if you control your losses guess, what it's not that bad bit can be made back pretty, damn quickly the problem is when people say oh I'm, in this stock I might as well give it more time I might as well you know maybe I'll even average, down like, yeah the worst thing when you guys see a breakout and it fails so let's say just for example CH, oo f you see it fail at 110 it comes down to 104, and you're like well it, might not be a big breakout now but let me buy it at 104, get my average down to 107, then I can escape if it gets back to 110, and you make a penny or two why, do you think people like to do that because. There's. A certain thrill that comes with fighting, a stock like that turning a loser into a winner and that was another one of my problems when I took all my big losses because. You get a rise out of that you really do you feel like so smart after but, again. You know I might work 90 times out of a hundred but you know ten times you are gonna lose your ass and, it probably won't work nine times out of ten probably gonna probably work out early or 40% so how do you guys do that and you're like Tim, Sykes told me to cut losses but, I didn't, cut losses now I made it back, you Tim Sykes and I'm like but you you're wrong we're, gonna bomb lesson, and then they lose it big the next time so they make like one or two cents and they lose like 10 or 20 cents the next time so there's, ways to make money that are good odds and there's ways to make money that are bad and I know that's confusing when you're beginning here just like no it's just making money like I get messages like you just like to lose you know no, I like, to minimize my losses and I like to take high on setups, the, multi month break out especially on OTCs. I think works very well one. Of my students his name is Michael he's a NFL, player and he has gone from negative, that he was down 3,000, when he first began now he's positive 5,000, that's his pattern why do you think ot cease work so well with multi month breakouts I think, they're a little bit less tied to, the overall market like, you know whether the Dow, is up or down on stuff. Like that, I mean. OTC, is really are just pure technicals, yeah so no I agree with that and I'd like buying the, first read day or like a breakout on an OTC better than an aesthetic because, legree OTC. Is with momentum, and volume like they can really run I get there so speculative.
They're Such like junkie companies they're not even like real like, legit, companies so their, stock takes. A little longer like CNN. That one like it can just go up for like three four five six days in a row and like double or triple penny. By penny like, they're building the bid they're building the ass, his beautiful, thing to watch. Especially. If you open the next day where someone's trying to buy because the thing with OTCs, executions. Take longer so if somebody really wants to buy so let's say there's five hundred people who want to buy an OTC stop riding at the open they can't get executed on NASDAQ stop those all get executed, within a few seconds if there's five hundred people who want to buy an OTC stock at the open it might take five maybe even ten minutes until. The last guy gets executed and meanwhile, the market makers are just gradually walking, the price up yeah especially if those buyers are using market orders you know most people do because a lot of OTC s they're being promoted they're. Just you know being, basically. Promoting, like a story, so they're, very I. Think, bad fundamentally. But very good for trading vehicles, if you know how, it works it's very dangerous if you're in an OTC overnight, and let's say there's bad news and, everyone is trying to get out if there's 500, people trying to get out and you're one of them you're not going to get out so you have to be very careful, holding an OTC overnight, I think. And if there's like a tidal wave of sellers, like you probably get like. At the bottom or towards the bottom have, you ever done that have you ever been stuck in an OTC I have, yeah, and how much did you lose like what percent well I've been stuck in halts twice and. Those were like eighty percent losses but halts are rare. It's, funny actually I was telling this story at the, little. Meetup the other day in her and her circle yes inner circle that's right um post, the link just below if you've got a learning, person at my inner circles um one. Of one of my early losses that kind of was like the beginning of the end for that first 1500 dollar account of mine I. Had, been basically. Playing. Promotions, overnight for gap ups yeah because I was tracking an awesome penny stocks back then and like every time they had a green candle it would always gap up like three, to five percent or more yeah and so, I, got in this habit of buying these awesome penny stock pumps selling them X like right at the next morning open making, a few percent look okay this is awesome this is fun and I, hadn't really learned yet not all promoters, are created equal so I. Had. Bought, some random, promoter who had had a green day and instead, of gapping up next morning they gapped down and it, had so much less than the quiddity than an awesome Penny Stocks pump so I got stuck in the panic, I lost, $250. Which at the time was, my largest loss ever by far and, it. Was just like a enormous, gut punch but yeah, I mean it happens and it can be really frustrating trying, to sell into weakness I just, thought of something you were explaining your story when you started with 1500, and you explained it I got off track how, much are you now currently, up as we're doing this interview this week at past six point seven million in profits. Run, fifteen, hundred of your own money some. Money borrow from your family to get to like thirteen thousand open brokerage accounts. How. Do you think other people can, achieve, this, over the many years I mean. You. Can't rush they that's damn tough yeah, I don't want you there go I can make six point seven I didn't we made five million I think. Part of what helped me is I didn't have a goal in mind I wasn't I wasn't like oh my god I'm gonna be a millionaire by next year like I I was. Just taking it a day at a time a trade at a time I like my goal was, just to, be able to do this for a living like I didn't care if I was making a hundred grand a year like I just wanted you know the freedom that came along with it and to not, go back to working 40 hour weeks in an office and being bored to death I mean, I see that you spend a lot on your clothes though so you have, to you, have to really make enough money to afford that I mean this is a custom, Mickey chill-out shirt I think this I saw this head at one of the tourist shops I think it's not 8 euros, so, you, obviously had some goals to afford such designer, ride yeah, yeah obviously clothing.
Is Very important, to me. But. You know I side, from the patients aside from the patients what. Really helped me was, you. Know you just talked about Michael like I think it was him who said like it seems so counterintuitive but. The less he traded the more he started to make Michael good or Michael heavy a Michael, ex-nfl, Michael yeah, we have a lot of Michael yeah yeah, I think. He said that and like it really echoed, my thoughts so perfectly, because that. Was my turning point yeah yeah you know you, know I did have all that time trying. To trade you know ten different setups and I blew up a fifteen hundred dollar account, okay but I learned from it and I, was able you know through all those all that overtraining I did I still. Was able to see, okay I'm doing well with this set up in this set up and okay I'm getting killed at short-selling so let's just cut that out for now and not short sell anymore yeah and I. Focused, in on the two I was best at and that. Was it like I would go two or three days without making a trade and that was fine with me because when my pattern, came along I was ready and I attacked and did it always work no but like it worked more than it failed and that's, what dug me out of the hole and then that's how I was able to start leveraging up and you, know scaling, up my position sizing and it's. Just been really, just doing that process over and over again with different setups trying different things some, things work some things don't and cut. Out what doesn't stick with what does and push, it as far as you can how do you think people can be more selective cuz, everyone says oh be selective wait for the best setups how do they find what the best setups are I mean the best setup for, me it's all pattern based like I mean catalyst. Matters a little but, I don't I don't go into a warning, saying all of this stock said it want to contract I'm gonna buy it because of that news no I look, at the chart like I know okay, this stock said it want a contract, but, then I see what the daily chart says I see what the float is I see like a number of technical things that tell, me whether there might be a trade there or not. You have to understand, what the set up your trading is and, you have to like every, single person I think should have a journal, of their trades and say, you know it doesn't have to get that in-depth it doesn't have to be anything crazy but just say how much you made or lost you, know what the date was what, the ticker was and what was the setup you were trying to trade you have to be able to answer that question what, was the setup I was trading and then. You, know after you've traded for a month or two you can look at this nice history, of trade results of yours and you. Can see specifically, which setups are you best or worst at that's. That's, how you figure out setups, for yourself to train so. They just need to test you need to test you need to test, you.
Know And test, small so that you don't kill yourself early when you're doing this so, this is it so what do you think I mean, obviously, testing. Tinkering. Refining. What, do you think people do. The worst and your experience because a lot of people ask you questions what's like the biggest problem that they have um. Getting. Discouraged to easily honestly, there's. There's this conception, out there that if you take a lawsuit did something wrong and, that's not true because we've said it already during this sit down here that sometimes. Setups, just don't work there's. A huge difference between oh, the breakout failed and I had to cut the loss and oh the breakout failed and then I held and then I added and then I held longer and I took a loss five times as big as it would have been if I had just cut when the setup failed so there's different ways to take losses some. Losses can, be good, I know this, is gonna get a lot of blowback so I'll be right there just a loser that's why you like lawsuits but sometimes, you're gonna be wrong and if, you accept that and you minimize the loss and you lose 1 2 3 4 cents a share on like a dollar stock it doesn't matter you, can make it back so quickly, it's that stubbornness, when you refuse to have the loss because your ego doesn't want to let's say some people get on the streets like oh I've won seven trades in a row I've won 18, trades in a row your street doesn't matter your street does not matter in the long run it matters, how much you make over time, not, streets, I would rather win fifty, percent of the time and make ten million dollars than win 100 percent of time to make a hundred dollars okay, there are some people there like I'm perfect I've never made a loss but is this scalable, is it repeatable, can you actually execute these orders like especially if you make a lot of money on paper trading like oh I just should sell all of these on paper, trading you can do that in real life you have to find a borrow sometimes, when you do find the borrow it keeps going you have to pay daily fees for, those borrows that adds up so short selling is a lot more difficult. In real life, paper trading candy, yeah what do you think about paper trading should people do it I don't. Like it I really don't I think, you're a lot better off and you're gonna get some one's more value, out of trading, real, money incredibly. Small because. They were trading there's no emotion at all like. When you actually have something at risk that, really makes it real trading I agree, with that so I talked with a lot of people and I, say look trade with a hundred shares of 200 Jewish you're not gonna make anything you're not gonna lose much but, at least you get in the habit and paper trading is good I will say for, people who don't have any money like some people are like I just have no money I want to learn so that way you can still practice even though it is only a partial education, but it still gets you in the game well you know if you're gonna do that though like, get an actual paper trading software I know there's some brokers that offer that you know like my.
Before. I started, you know that three months I was watching video lessons I was. Like the classic example, of a bad student at first like my idea was I wanted to follow your alerts like, I was like excited by the idea of like I can I can just buy one team behind follow, my alerts never follow anybody's, alerts you must be self-sufficient, I shared the alerts to help you plan in real time so I I'm, sort, of mentally, paper treated your alerts during those three months and I. Would like track it in a spreadsheet so I wasn't actually even pushing any buttons having, to deal with getting real executions. Yeah and I think I think I was six out of six like it was incredible, and then real trading hit and I was I was down a couple hundred bucks really fast yeah, don't, follow, alerts, for everybody, that was so so so important, but at the same time don't ignore alerts, I share them with you because I also have learned that they are the best tool for helping you plan in real, time you need to come up with your own plan and to see it in real time because I it's not just about the alert for me like I set up a watch list I do commentary, usually, my trades are predicted ahead of time in the chatroom like if this stock crosses, his level I'll be buying if the stock you know has a first read day I'll be shorting it's, all about recognizing. As quickly, as possible as they're playing out it does me, no good it does you no good to be like oh I saw that two days ago, you know I knew what was gonna happen and, then you're like a hindsight, trader a lot of people think that like trading, is so easy and they're just you know judging based in hindsight can you do it in real time can, you see the, play ahead, of time that's what I think is best about you where a lot of the time like you are you know planning, this stuff ahead of time and seeing how the trade plans out and then guess, what you can execute because you try see ahead of time you can execute in real time yeah because like that is one of the hardest things because you you learn, about multi-day breakouts let's say and you. Are seeing, a chart at the end of the day and how it played out you're seeing that entire day in an instant, yeah whereas, when you're buying a breakout in the moment you, might have to sit through an hour of choppiness, like you're not used to that you're not dealing you're thinking it's a breakout it should be like I should be up a lot of money and it takes time so. That real time experience and actually, seeing what it feels like for a pattern to play out like that's, just so valuable. What. Not also like you mentioned during like the choppiness, of a breakout like how do you I mean I'm just fair, warning I'm not good at hope you through the choppiness like I look for that quick, breakout if it doesn't give me the breakout like I'll take the loss of three cents like I did on truth or I might sell for like your penny or two and then the stock will run how do you hold through that choppiness, each. Me - okay, I mean like what you know again this is where tracking comes in so handy because, so. Early on I was tracking breakouts that was one of my first like really solid setups yeah and I, learned that from one. Of your DVDs I'd seen it in your video lessons like because every one I do want to hear yeah yeah it was that one it was one, of your favorite setups and I'm I think it still might be yeah but. You. Had always said oh and so you know the stock breaks out and then the resistance becomes support, and I, expected, that to be perfect, so I found myself getting shaken out of a lot of plays like you know maybe I buy a stock and a dollar on a multi-day breakout and then, it pulls back to like 98, cents and I'm, like oh it's under that dollar like, it's, failing it you know resistance.
Didn't Become support and I cut the loss and then it runs off without so. I, tracked. For a while I started to see like there was so many succeeding. That didn't perfectly, hold you know the original breakout well they did they did tend to shake just a little bit below the level and then continue, onwards so. That. Tracking, helped me see like okay you know I'm like. I'm not using a good risk level like I need to I really should probably risk off of like what was the previous intraday. Support, before that's it and so that. Tracking, gave me the confidence to, be patient, and be confident. That I'm using a risk level that make sense so this is what Tim Burton he does so well he cuts losses, intelligently. As opposed to me I cut, them quicker, I cut trades quicker then I don't, think do you know anybody who cuts trades quicker than me like looks, like a solid trading, plan but, for, me I think that's good for newbie. Traders you know because you do have some you, know bigger swing, losses, some, bigger swing losses is a much bigger swing. Games like Fisher must be willing to lose I don't know what ten percent sometimes seven percent yeah. Like I honestly don't even think about the percent like I'll never be sad that I took a 20%, loss I'll be sad if I took a larger dollar loss than I was supposed to based off of my rescue but at the same time taking, a 5 10 maybe even 20 percent loss opens the door to one hundred two hundred three hundred percent winners how long did you hold CBS I for two. Or three weeks and what were you in that on average I was in at, like, 96, cents would you say that I sold it at. 235. Maybe so he more than doubled his money holding, this stock CBS, I which is a sketchy-ass. Stop, okay, big. Time patience how much did you make on that trade that, was two hundred twelve thousand I think so, I would never have done that and that's you, know okay, like that's not a play, for me I might have bought, the breakout like one day and like made like my ten or twenty percent but he held on for like what is that a hundred and forty percent gain 130, percent yeah, but that was a really unusual trade, for me and like that that was actually one of my rare, where I had some fundamentals, I was factoring, in rather than just the chart today yeah yeah usually. Usually on a breakout my patience is like a max of two days but you still have the patience on your side a little more Dennis okay you got a quarter-million-dollar, nearly, profit on that so that's worth it, when. People. Not, have patience, when. Your risk levels breached I, mean. And, this, is again we're tracking comes in because if you track your trades enough and see enough times oh my risk level got breached for then the trade wane in my favour then that might tell you something that might tell you you're not setting smart risk levels. So. Then you adjust and then you do start setting risk levels that are a little bit smarter but, the second that risk level is gone. You're out like that that's how it's got to be and, that's that's exactly how I trade now because you. Know you might, get away with it every now and then if you don't do that but, you. Open the door to catastrophe. And those. Losses are just so. Emotionally. Devastating, financially, devastating, and I just never want to put myself in that position again and just quickly. Explain how, much did you make roughly in the past week since we've been here in Italy, well. Since, we've been in Italy I mean we've been traveling for like two weeks since we've been here in like the past five, reveal of days ok past five trading days was like about a hundred five hundred ten thousand in, profits, right and I had a red day on Friday Friday it was like minus 2500 okay, so I mean like a little a little red day but like that's it's, great I'm cutting my losses and I'm not giving back my week and I think it's important, to note that even when Tim Catania is trading, you turn off your profit. And loss column, you don't want to see it cuz you just want to focus purely on the chart purely. On your risk levels right if it brings that risk level then you're out if it holds on to it then you're gonna give it patients right but part of the reason I can do that to those because I'm thinking about when I'm buying the stock or shorting the stock how much sighs I'm taking like I have an idea of how much I lose if, my risk levels breach so I'm not I'm not just like completely. Ignoring, it yeah, yeah. What's your risk level my. Risk level is based on a key resistance or support on the chart there are mean dollar wise dollar wise most. Trades fact, dollars max there. Are some really special ones to come around every now and then where I'm willing to go bigger like 10 15 20 thousand but, I. Those. Aren't very often.
But Just think about this for somebody who has made millions and millions of dollars his maximum, risk level is you, know usually by arguably. A few thousand dollars so just think about that for a second because a lot of you guys have, like 10 20 30 thousand dollar accounts and your, risk level is losing $5,000 which is wrong you should never risk losing 30, 40 50 percent of your account on one trade and that I see confusion, about this like risking, five thousand dollars for me doesn't mean I'm taking five thousand dollar positions, it means if I stop out of this trade my loss will be five thousand dollars stretcher but, why, do you think people are, so aggressive with their overall account I think early. On you just want to make more faster, like. That really I mean I was aggressive early like, I kind, of I mean, of myself I had to be and that just wasn't true I used to go all in so I'm not the best guy to judge I would never, tell you to go all-in these days I have become very, conservative. In my old age I think. That you can get aggressive later, on in your career like your you know your six or seven in your career you've seen a lot of plays you've, experienced, big gains you've experienced big losses you've, been around when, you're first beginning you just don't know how, fast these stocks can surge if you're short and you're not, comfortable with how quickly they can drop if you're long especially if you're long an OTC so, you, just can't judge, properly, and that I think opens the door to bigger, losses, confusion. Frustration, disappointment. The, whole like you know 12 steps of depression, for sure that's what you're opening the door to yeah, and it's not because the market is bad it's not because trading is bad it's not because this is a scam it's because you have the wrong, preparation. You have the wrong perception, right how do we fix that I, mean. We. We can only do so much like we repeat this I think every time we sit down together we do lay in a different location so we have done interviews, if you search, interviews. We. Did one in Vegas we. Did one in British. Virgin Islands, on, we. Did one in Bali, we, did one and, where. Was that other not. On the yacht but on land where we on st. Martin yeah, st., Martin and then, we did another one some, other time I lost.
Track So we're doing this all over the world literally we had we go all over the world we're very fortunate we did want it early on in the Maldives, oh yeah. 100,000 so we've done, this in like seven things the, rules don't change okay. It's kind of cool like maybe we've refined that maybe we've like, follow them better, nothing. Really is new here like you're not learning something new that's why I like something real like is a video from two or three years ago still relevant yes yes. It is the rules don't change but. How do I get through to these people who are don't, you see that it's frustrating you just stop like answering yes. My. Eyes I, didn't, give up on anyone no it's, just that I started thinking more about how I want to spend my time outside of marks cruise stop. Bothering, this guy he's, already busy enough he's trying to make more money I want him to be more successful ask me pile, the questions, on me I have a team I'm already insane, so I have no sanity, to lose. One. Question I get a lot that frustrates me is how do I be more disciplined and that's. Something that neither. Of us can tell you like that is completely internal do you agree like, you've got to take it upon yourself to, you. Know do. The right thing over and over again yeah I mean we can teach you the rules we can teach you the chart patterns but it's you're, the one clicking the buttons it's up to you I'm not gonna be come, to your home and be like here, push this button right now and hold your hand. You. Need to internalize this you need to take, all this in maybe take some notes and then, employ. It and put it into practice you know what one thing I guess I can say that helps me like I when. We were talking to the students. The other day, I was I was talking about how that early. Point of my career when I lost the $1500. And refunded, like, that, that sucked but it wasn't like really that low of a moment for me or I didn't really take it too hard because I felt like I had an idea of how to move forward yeah, and I was saying that the lowest point in my career was. Like I literally had about a one-year span, I was. Already up a couple million dollars at this point but I had about a one-year period of time where, I net it out to break-even because I was going through this cycle of a few, profitable months, lose it all in one big loss a few profitable months, lose it all on Monday loss and, that. Was for me like my lowest moment and like my most frustrated, I've been was trading because it. Was it was a discipline, issue and it was a mistake you, know I thought, one. $290,000. Loss would teach me my lesson and I would never do that again and I, did it four times yeah yeah like anybody, that was like their losses reduced, every time well they reduce but I still was it was still the same mistake, and it was still what's happening and still was way more that I should be losing on a trade and yeah I felt like I was like oh my god like where's my self-control how, do I keep letting this happen yeah um so, I guess like if I am gonna say like one thing that could help with discipline, and what helped me was. Trading. Psychology books, I read, daily trading coach by. Brett, Steve Buerger a fantastic. Book and the, key idea I pulled from that book was, to track my, loss is where. I made a mistake so you know not the losses where it's like oh the setup just didn't work but the losses were either I played, it too large from the start I didn't, cut a loss I added, to a loser you, know outside of my plan and I. You, know having, it actually, you, know yeah. Not on paper but on a spreadsheet like physically. Seeing it and, tallying. How many times I made these mistakes in a month. That. That gave me something to work towards like okay this month I didn't cut losses five, times next, month I've got to beat that number. And that. Was you, know that was huge and that brought me back and I, really haven't had problems. With that sense he also wrote the psychology, of trading which is a great book I'll post links just below this video so that you can read. Them I'll, talk about my lowest, point where I frankly lost $500,000. Plus on a longer term investment, I didn't realize the difference between longer term investing and trading at the time I bought. Into an illiquid penny stock I couldn't, get out even if I wanted to I got stuff I was actually right about the technology, print-at-home taking, it turned out to be a big thing the company went bankrupt I lost all my money all. The money in that investment. I lost roughly 35%, of my hedge fund but. It was a gut. Punch to me I lost all my industry, credibility, if you read about me on the internet people still talk about this even though this was over, a decade ago it, forced, me to learn, rules and that's why I think losses, are good so if you are losing or, if you do have big losses it, forces you to re-evaluate everything, no one really eights when they're succeeding even, if they could be succeeding, more let's say some people out there are like oh I've made $2,000, and I'm like well if you studied you might have made 10,000, but they don't want to reevaluate because, they're still winning losses.
Can, Become, your best teachers because they force you so they look at yourself they force you to be like I don't want this anymore I don't know if I've ever asked you this but did any part of you want to like quit after that happened 100%, yeah drank a lot I, was, I was really down on myself but. The thing that saved me was that there were still more and more place so even, though I had lost you know roughly thirty five percent of my money I, was. Like well let me try to get back on the horse and when you try to get back on the horse you don't go all-in, you don't go big like you're like am i is it broken. Am i is my lockout like I didn't even know that I had rules back then I didn't have it all crystallized, I was just like this pattern you. Know no one had taught me I'm self-taught, so that kind of sucked but. I started going back into the trades that fit my patterns, and I started making money, more than losing, and I was like okay, that the world isn't so bad you know as time, passes as you, see more and more plays you. Start to realize like, there's, always going to be plays oh yeah whether it's every day or every week or every month I mean different, markets have different opportunities for sure but that gradually, got me out of my funk, and then, because, I had lost all my industry credibility, and so many people were talking, that. Made me even more pumped so I appreciate, that haters, I appreciate, the doubt because, then I was like I getting. Angry I started like like people were saying you know I have my TV show Wall Street warriors that just started airing right is my fund lost 35% and everyone was like oh your TV show really dude they didn't know that I was already in the investment before the TV show yeah it was just a tiny displacement, TV takes like nine months to air so, I was really angry that people were saying these things that they were inaccurate and then when the TV show started airing people were saying you can't short sale penny stocks this is new you know my, broker says you're a criminal and I was like you just have to find chairs of choice so a lot, of things happen all at once for me but aside. From the TV aside from the industry, stuff like I saw, the plays and, I kept making money more times than not and then I restarted, with $12,000. I went. Into teaching everyone thought that like no one goes from hedge funds to teaching like yes, there's a Reuters article failed, hedge fund manager tries again on the internet but then I became the number one ranked trader on ko Wester I turned the twelve thousand into two hundred thousand so I think. That you get a lot of confidence, from. The process, from, correctly, applying these rules and, just succeeding. Over time even if it's not as quick as you might think like twelve, thousand two hundred thirty thousand that sounds amazing but it took me three years to, do that okay, showing, every trade and you, know building up my blog and stuff like that so you. Have like these kind, of delusions, of grandeur I think they were to be able to go I'm gonna make six point seven and when, he's made six point seven million like he just said there was a year where he did nothing and that was after, already made millions so it's not like okay, you made nothing for the first nine months then life has been easy ever since you, have to constantly be adapting, there will always be up and down periods, you know you made nothing for a year but maybe, you would have lost what, have you have lost a million after making three or four million yeah that's gonna happen sometimes too you're not just a grandmaster do you know everything and you're like neo and, you can just fight you know agent, whatever is Smith Agent Smith yes it is name at the end and he's like I can see the code like.
He'll Never lose against Agent Smith again you're how, do you always adapt, I mean. You're just constantly, working you have the right mindset yeah, yeah like, you, can never get you can never just like take like you, know you're off I mean. You. Could, I guess but you kind, of have to have like the start from scratch mentality, when you came back like, you know ease. Your way back in see what's working see what's not I'd be tracking for sure again. But you have taken weeks, and even months I have yeah, I. Was on a boat all January, I didn't trade, Internet, yeah how do you how do you do that like how do you come back from time, off that's. Slowly. Usually. Because. I don't, want to have, a long break and then come back and, lose a bunch of money in the first couple of days and, then you know put. Myself in a really nasty mental, situation where, I'm like oh my god I got to make this back so I think it's kind of like an athlete, who gets injured, and then they're coming back from like Tommy John surgery, or something and they don't come back and they're like an all-star immediately. Like they have to get confidence, they have to go to rehab everyday like yeah yeah I use my way back for, sure every, time I take a break I use my way back in gotcha, so what. Do you think about people, who you, know maybe have. Taken a break and they, can't get back into it what is their problem because I get a license, you can't get back into it how they can't find their groove again, maybe, they like they come back in they're like getting shopping, around that making my hair just like you, know what it's I had, it once and, they thought it would be like riding a bike and they thought they could come back but what are they doing wrong, I mean. Market conditions do change. So. I, think, that, you. Can either like, hang your head and give up and say oh the markets hard now or you. Know make a spreadsheet track, a setup see you know see, look for a new angle and. Just, trade small till you start, to figure out what your edges again so that was my point that's what I was going for yeah you don't have to go all, in and, first of all you should never go all in but you you don't have to go back to taking full positions, right away you, can modulate this, isn't like a casino, like casinos black, or red you double your money you lose everything like whatever, it's very simple it's binary with, this let's, say before you're buying a thousand shares and not even if you took a break but let's say maybe you took a loss and your confidence, is shaken before, you buy 10,000. Shares on every trade you, can buy 500. Shares and see, how it goes you can take a 5%, of your former position, size and then maybe if you get confidence I start taking 10% of your former size maybe 20% maybe, you try a pattern, and it's not working, so forget, about taking time off forget about any losses let's, just say you're riding high and you're doing well you're doing well you're doing well and then you stop doing, well this, is what happened to me in here 2000 I made seven hundred thousand dollars plus my, first four months when the Nasdaq was going from two to five thousand, just buying penny stock breakouts the last eight months of the year I lost ten thousand there were no more breakouts I forced, myself to, adapt.
And I learned short selling then, I made a few hundred thousand two thousand one two thousand two so you. Always have to adapt and I wish you could talk about that just for a second like how often, do patterns, change, how often do you have to adapt oh pretty. Often I mean I was, I was primarily an OTC trader and, OCC's. Were great up until all the major promoters, got shut down yeah. Then we had that that little like brief we'd stock boom and then, there was like just a six month winter nothing. Like my oh jeez Afghan or was like I like, never seen it before but I would have no stocks on my oh geez and right now there's not that many OTS it's kind of slow right now - yeah but is that coming going away - they coming go away Zack, is crazy right now and we're filming this in the summer each. Of the past what three summers has been just been like crazy like usually yeah it ain't like July or August like, really wind it down everyday, there's like 100 or 200 percent winner it's crazy like I mean even have you ever niche with two or three setups are really comfortable and I always encourage like, learn, a fourth on the side like have something to fall back on if things get slow I. Mean. That's super important. To. Jump back to your point about like you know you do go through those periods where you struggle and like. Easing back in after that or learning, a new skill, you. Know we talked about my year-long period where I really made no money like, I I had, to ease my way back in after that like I I documented. This whole thing on YouTube I did like maybe, ten months worth of monthly recaps, yeah where. I psyched, myself down, so far like how, does your ego take that everything was hard it was difficult because I I went down to like I can new Lulu's no more than $1,000, on a trade like that was that was the number I gave myself yeah what were you before before. Well, before I don't think had thought of risk quite that like black and white like that that's part of my problem was that I was like so much of a gunslinger and I've seen so many times where I was like oh I just got stubborn but it works what was this week that. I remind, you about that. I was gonna drop the hammer on like use. Like that this is make or break I don't, care what the stock does I am betting against, it time to drop the hammer and, I think I texted you and I was like whoa whoa. I calm down you were you were a farmer never drop the hammer never, drop the soap in jail like come on like you, will get screwed, like I don't want that so how. Do you come, back from that. Slaughtering. Time really is slowly and it took a lot of discipline, because I, did. Have to size myself way down and it. Was hard for me because you, know it was about practicing, good habits, it was about correcting, all those mistakes in my lost journal that I was keeping and you, know every month that I improved, I was allowed to size up a little bit my rules myself but like I think it was like January, 2016. One of my first months in this process was like a ten thousand dollar a month for me and like I had had like I think my best month in my career up to that point was like two hundred ninety thousand dollars yeah, so like that is that is like mentally, difficult, to like step, back like that huh but, it was about the process, it wasn't about the money and now. The process I mean I've had a couple $400,000. Months I've seen that like you had to what do you four hundred thousand dollars a month like. Too bad November, and December during, like that whole Bitcoin case I think, I had like a five hundred thousand month and a four hundred thousand months and then June, was just a four hundred thousand dollar gotcha, but. It took months off how, many months have you taken off this year already I'm like, one and a half a - what am i - and you're already what up this year like one and a half I think I am now. Okay oh, I. Don't. Think I fight a million a year yeah yeah. Weak weak weak yes, so weak kidding, I'm kidding that's amazing, but. It's, you've got to keep the marathon not a sprint mentality, that's I think that's really what it is keep reminding yourself of that like you know each sit through those slow months sit through those months where you have to like go back to square one and reset, yourself well you know you're doing this for future, you you know you're doing this so that the huge months are possible, later, you, can't you can't want it all right now because if you put that pressure on yourself where, you've got to make you know a record, month every month like. You're going to do something really dumb why. Do you think traders, some.
I Know a lot of traders they take a month off they take a week off. Some. People don't understand it like some people message, me you know I still. Working I'm still doing my watch listen comment area but there are weeks where like I just don't see any great trades or I don't trade why. Do you think that's necessary, for traders, I think it's necessary to take some time off because this is really, mentally, taxing it. Is like, you, get exhausted, you kind of reach a breaking point and it's. Funny because this, is something else I had to work, I would I would get to that point where I was, like I could tell like I'm getting mentally fatigued I'm starting to do dumb things because, I've just been trading day after day after day and, then. It would ultimately it, would it would lead to like a big stupid trade or I've take a dumb loss no I would say well there's my dumb loss I've got to take a week off yeah and I. Finally got it to the point where I, can recognize, and step away before I take that loss it's also trading, is addicting so it's hard it's hard to force yourself to step away but, you know after like three or four times that mistake I finally got yeah especially, when there's big money like, you. Know you you want that money you have money in your account you have the knowledge like all you have to do is press a little button but you have to control that by with, that great power, comes great responsibility yeah. And we, have all felt, that burnout like I see you Steven, dots mark for Michael good myself we're like, way. Too many plays too little sleep like you have to understand this isn't just like, fun we're not just like bye so. Like. We're. Looking at these patterns that's what I want you to understand, from all of this like this, is so, much work. And it's a beautiful work and we're able to go everywhere and I'm very blessed and fortunate, we're here at Italy celebrating, my mom's birthday I flew them out you know first-class tickets it's beautiful, to be able to do this but it, takes, a lot, of effort. And really. Like the more size you trade the more stressful it gets um and I I'm. Kind of in this little like mental rut right now like where I will see guys like ducks who. Are creating like five. Times the number of shares I am on a setup and killing it and I'm like you know I should be able to do that too but like I'm, at this point like where I just know like emotionally, I can't handle that right now like I can't I can't push that kind of Sighs and sleep, well at night so you really have to recognize that you have to be introspective and, think about that how is your mental like well-being, right now like there's no offseason that's, the thing with sports okay you, trained in the offseason you get better for the on season, it's. Very nice stock, market, usually we've had summers off but not lately not in the past three. Years, I've been begging for a bear market I've been begging for time off I'm already like long, far, gone but I also trade with small size which makes it a little easier I want to be able to teach and trade with big size I would be totally. Gone. Final. Thoughts what, do you think people need to hear to. Get. Them on the right path be, give them the right mentality, and see, have. Them succeed, where 90% of people usually fail, I, mean. Sort, of like we just mentioned it's a marathon not a sprint you've got to come into thi