Mnuchin testifies before House Small Business Committee
A safe environment. For all here, today. Secretary. Minuchin, administrator. Carranza. Welcome, to the Small Business Committee and, thank, you for being here today. Let. Me start by saying I, want to give a sincere thank, you to all the, staff at, both your. Agencies, who have worked, tirelessly, over. The, last few months responding. To this crisis. I am. Deeply appreciative, of, all the work which. Helped support millions of American. Jobs in a moment of unprecedented. Uncertainty. These. Are extraordinary. Circumstances. And I would like to paint a picture for you of the. Magnitude. Of the, devastation that, small, businesses. Are going through right, now. Back. In March it became clear that Kobe 19, will, tear, through our communities. Living. Almost no, sector of our economy. On. Stage and the, heat of on small, businesses was in many cases, deeper. And grimmer, than their, larger counterparts. Have. Been on phone calls with small business owners in my district, who. Have been. Mainstays. In the community, for decades who. Had lived through 9/11, and, the, Great Recession and, are, now holding. Back tears telling. Me that. If we do not do more to fix PPP. And find. Long-term solutions. That, they cannot imagine, their, business, the, source of income for themselves and their employees to, survive. The, carbonating, pandemic, in. Fact, about. 110,000. Small businesses, have, already, closed their doors permanently. And an. Estimated. 7.5. Million, additional. Firms, are at risk for, the same fate and on. Top of all that they. Turn on the, news and see, headlines, like, Trump. Friends, and family cleared, for millions, in small, business bailout an SBA. Exam. That lawmakers, federal. Officials, from ethics, rules, in. 660. Billion dollars loan program. Let. Me tell you. That. Is a gut punch, to. The small businesses, that this program, was intended to serve the. Ones that, didn't have the. Top-notch, financial. Connections, to quickly get a PPP. Loan, and while. We, are grateful, to, SBA, for providing for, providing data that. I have been calling for since.
The Start of PPP, it is, not secret, that there have been errors, that are cost for, concerns, I, am. Troubled, by the bloomberg, news report. That at least 200, 26,000, loans worth. Likely, miss reported, by congressional, districts, making. It even harder for us to understand. How, businesses. In our district, fared, in the program. Meanwhile. A report, from the New York City Comptroller suggests. That, PPP, loans were made in greater, frequency, in. States, that were less hit by coffee 19, than. In, epicenters. Like, New York City and, as. We all know the pandemic has been especially for, the unforgiving. For our communities. Of color. Minorities. Have borne the brunt of the health, consequences. Of this, terrible, virus. We. Cannot, let their. Businesses. Also disproportionately. Bear. The economic. Consequences. According. To a survey a mere 12% of black and Latino business, owners who apply for PPP. Loans, reported. Receiving. What. They asked for and nearly half. Anticipated. Being forced to close permanently. In the near future and we don't, even know how, a ssin a native. Native. American, business owners fared. Because. Demographic. Data. Wasn't. Asked to be voluntarily. Provided. That. Is why collecting. Demographic. Data on these loans was, impaired. I will, continue to press to set aside more resources, for. Minority, and women-owned, businesses, and I, hope that, we will commit to do more for, these businesses, in what we're sure to be tough, months, ahead I am. Sure you both can, understand. Many. In our country are frightened. They, are angry, and they are hurting we. Are here today to bring transparency, and, accountability to, ensure that. America, knows they, have a government that works, as well for them as it, does for the well-connected, corporations. And, Friends. Of this administration. As, locked, down orders, started. In March. Storefronts. Were shuttered and ways, of layoffs, were, taking, place in, response, Congress provided. Relief, to reeling business, owners and their employees first. Congress. Established, the, Paycheck. Protection, program or PPP, to. Provide forgivable. Loans to, businesses and, nonprofits. For mainly covering, payroll, second. To. Help small, businesses, that need a financing. Beyond PPP. Congress. Enhanced SBA's, idle program, to get more flexible. Working capital, to more business, faster. Knowing. That small businesses, operate, on razor thin, margins, Congress, created, the idle, grant program, to, get cash into, the hands of small businesses quickly. To, bridge the gap until their. Loans are disbursed. Despite. The flaws in their implementation, this. Programs, has been a lifeline, for millions, of enterpreneurs. And job, creators. Injecting. Over six hundred seventy, billion dollars into, the economy to, address. Concerns, and make the program's work better our committee, held, numerous, hearings, and forums, with, small businesses, lenders. And leading. Policy experts. Over the past few months one. Of the top issues we, heard from, PPP, stakeholders.
Is The, incomplete, and ever-changing. Guide. Borrowers. Testified. That they, had very little guidance regarding. How, to spend, their loans so, they could qualify for full, forgiveness. And lenders. Lenders, are still reporting, the process, for. Seeking forgiveness isn't, clear and unworkable. If. Forgiveness. Is the centerpiece, of the program, a streamline. Efficient. Process, for getting those loans forgiven, should. Be a priority. Turning. Briefly to, idle the. Lack of clear communication has. Been an ongoing, issue. Given. The urgency, of this pandemic, and the uncertainty. For so many small businesses, SBA. Must do a better job communicating, at. The. Spread of Cobie knighting, has accelerated, in, recent weeks, and lockdown. Orders. Return. It will, be extremely, important. That, we take lessons, learned since, March to. Start, off unnecessary. Bankruptcies. And make, sure these programs are working for, America small firms we. Also need to explore other ways SBA, can support, our small business, sector like, turning, to, try and true, program, enhancement. That work after. The, Great Recession. Once. Again thank, you for being here today I now yield to ranking member schaible for his opening, statement thank. You madam chair and I want to thank administrator. Carranza. As well as secretary minuchin. For being with us here today and taking time out of your very busy schedule, so thank. You so much for being here both of you while, we all agree we must be forward-looking. As we continue, to respond, to, the Cova 19 pandemic, the topic of today's discussion is, equally important. We, must continue, to work together to, ensure the, federal government's, relief efforts, face sound and prudent, oversight these. Programs, were developed to assist the nation's smallest firms. Instances. Were ineligible, businesses. And entities including, political, organizations. Who benefited, from programs, must, be examined closely, take. For example the. Over, $300,000. Taxpayer-backed. Loans that. Were received by the Ohio Democratic Party, in May and. Madam, chair for the record I would oppose such a bailout for, the Republican, Party as, well but it happened to be the Democratic Party. In Ohio that, took advantage of this and I don't think it was ever intended for. That, type of thing to happen additionally. Oversight, of how, well the billions of dollars allocated, to, assist small businesses was. Utilized, is. Imperative. That will help us to formulate a future, strategy, and to, make well-informed decisions, that. Benefit the greatest number, of Americans. I. Happen. To represent most, of the city, of Cincinnati, for. The past few months I visited, with countless small businesses. And. And, obviously many. Of their employees as well and I, and my staff have spoken, with representatives. From the Cincinnati African. American Chamber of Commerce and, the Urban League and. Some. Of our smallest, businesses particularly. Those and minority, and economically. Disadvantaged. Communities. Oftentimes. The. Smallest, businesses. And, typically, under 10 employees. They, didn't when this started, and many of them still don't they. Didn't have the strongest. Relationship. With banks or credit unions, when they were seeking, these loans so I think that it's something that we, and. I know as this as evolved, and the chair has been instrumental in, that effort, as well and we've worked with her and her staff on that but. We have to make sure that, those folks. In these economically, disadvantaged. Areas. Have access to. This because as I say oftentimes that the, relationship, they've had with the banking, institutions, financial institutions. Just isn't there so it makes it even tougher for them. Now. It's. Impossible. To legislate, from Washington, for every, single situation across, the country likewise. It's impossible, to regulate, from Washington. For every scenario, that may come up all. Of the folks in this room record. This. And and have been reminded since March of that structural, impossibility. Congress. Acted quickly earlier, this spring, speed.
Was Paramount in getting funds into the hands of small business, owners to keep them afloat when, they were forced to shut down through no fault of their own consolidating. Six months of legislative, work in a little more than six days the. Coronavirus, aid relief and Economic Security or, cares Act was, passed with overwhelming, bipartisan. Support Republicans. And Democrats, working together and it was signed into, law by President Trump. On March 27 this. More than two trillion dollar economic, relief package delivered, on our, commitment, to do everything possible to protect, the American people from the public health and economic, impacts, of kovat 19 the, cares Act created, the Paycheck protection, program or PPP, following. Passage, of this landmark, legislation, the. SBA and the Department of the Treasury worked, tirelessly to. Execute, the law and issue regulations, to, inform borrowers, and lenders alike how, the program, would be administered, to the credit of everyone involved, the first loans flowed, from private, lenders 7, days just one week later, on April 3rd since. That date the PPP, program, has distributed nearly. 5 million, loans, to, small firms in the amount of over, half a trillion dollars in, my, district and the surrounding, area alone small businesses, utilize, the program to preserve nearly. A half a million jobs, these. Successes, cannot, be ignored and Ohio. Isn't, alone this. Program, provided, small businesses, and their workers a lifeline. Across, the entire nation where. Their bumps in the road of course as I, stated earlier it's very difficult, to get a program this size up and running in a week have. There been communication. Issues between the federal government and the lenders and the borrowers undoubtedly. But, that is one of the reasons why we're here today we, must examine and learn from the past and prepare for, the future, unfortunately. There, are still challenges that, are presenting, obstacles, for the nation's smallest firms because. We continue to face this threat we must be forward-thinking, more. Needs to be done and we have proven that when we work together across. The, aisle across the Capitol and across the different ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, we. Can move mountains we. Aren't done yet and I look forward to engaging with, you Mountain Administrator, and you, mr. secretary, as well as you madam chair as, we continue, to work for American. Small, businesses, I want to thank you both for being here and again thank the chair, for holding this hearing today and I yield back.
Thank. You mr. chairman, I'd, like to take a moment to explain how this hearing will, proceed, its, witnesses. We'll have a minute to provide a statement and each, committee, member will have five minutes for questions please, ensure. That your microphone, is on when you begin speaking, and that, you return to mute when finished with, that I would like to introduce our, witnesses. I would, our first, witness today, is the Honorable, Kavita. Carranza, administrator. Of the SBA a ministry. Administrator. Carranza, has an inspiring. Background. Born. In Illinois to an, immigrant, family from Mexico she. Began her career, at, UPS, as, a part-time. Employee. Ultimately. Climbing. The corporate rents, to become president, of Latin. America, and Caribbean and, Caribbean, operations. In. 2006. President, Bush named. Her deputy, administrator for. The Small Business Administration, and, most, recently, was the Treasury, of the, United States. Welcome. Back to our committee administrator. Carranza, our. Second witness is the honorable, Steven minuchin. The, Secretary, of the US Department of, Treasury mr.. Minuchin, has, a successful. Career as a banker at, Goldman, Sachs for multiple, decades before, leaving to join other, hedge. Funds throughout the 2000s. He, was appointed Treasury, secretary, by President, Trump where, he is he, has Sarah for the last three years welcome. To the house Small, Business Committee and, thank, you for joining us today mr., minuchin. Administrator. Carranza, you are recognized, for five minutes. Thank. You. The. Mic is not on. Maybe. Bring closer, to you can, you hear me now okay no right, Thank You children Velazquez ranking members have it and members, of the committee for the invitation, to testify this morning I'm. Eager to update, you on the progress that has been made by the agency in helping small business whether the corona, virus, pandemic. Since. March the SBA has processed more than excuse. Me more loan volume than it has in the entire 67. Year history of the agency as of. This morning the PPP, has. Approved, nearly five million loans for over five hundred and eighteen billion dollars in. Much-needed. Fiscal. Relief to America's small businesses. We. Administered, this first-of-its-kind. Program. With an eye toward equity. Recognizing. That. This pandemic, has been particularly harmful, to socially, and economically, disadvantaged. Businesses. We. Mobilize, thousands, of new lenders including, community banks credit unions FinTech.
Companies, Farm. Credit lenders, and hundreds, of CDFI sand MDIs that specialize, in providing liquidity to. Underrepresented, communities. Through. Economic, injury disaster, loans and idle. Advances, the. Agency, has reached over eight million small businesses, dispersing, nearly a hundred and seventy billion dollars in, assistance that. Amount is more than all other disasters. In combined, in the history of the agency, idle. Loans are currently being processed, in just five days with. Disbursements. Occurring in just two days these. Programs, help the small business sector survive, once-in-a-lifetime. Disruption. Since. Early June I've made a concerted, effort to personally, speak to businesses left reeling by, this pandemic, and to, financial, institutions so. That I can see for myself what. Is working and where, improvements, need to be made, one. Of the scores of business I visited, was an African American logistics. Management firm in Dallas. SBA. Loans provided, him with a bridge a financial. Bridge over. The most most just waters he's ever experienced. It helped, him not only keep his employees, on payroll, but. Also hire new workers who, receive comprehensive skills, training, and professional, certifications. Many. Small business owners use. That term bridge. To. Describe how SBA loans provided, them with time, and the, space needed, to rethink. Innovate. And to adapt their business models, for success, in this new environment. When. African American manufacturer, in Greensboro, North Carolina told. Me that an SBA. Loan helped. Her develop brand, new lines of revenue, online. SBA. Loans helped, a whiskey distillery in Traverse, City Michigan, transitioned. His manufacturing, operation. To, hand sanitizer. To, meet both a social need and financial. Gaps. This. Pandemic has been an impetus, for innovation, in a, small business sector but. Share women it, also. Has. Accelerated, modernization. At the SBA, for. Example, we've, created an internal oversight plan for each cares, act program, and we've, looked long-term. At our management responsibilities. For millions of businesses, and disaster. Loans the. Agency has brought on thousands, of staff to support our kovat disaster, operations, while simultaneously, servicing. 175. Natural, disaster, declarations.
We've. Significantly, corrected. The customer service experience for idle applicants, by accelerating, processing, of our, loan q, helping. Them to better plan our. Dedicated, SBA, professionals, have been working hard to achieve this largely on telework, status. And as, a result we are more nimble more, responsive. And better, prepared, for tomorrow. Before. I conclude I, want. To say a few words about the, PPP, data disclosure, made earlier this month, the. Data reflects information, about loans approved by lenders and entered into the SBA loan system by those lenders it. Does not mean that SBA, has determined, that a borrower has complied, with program. Rules or is, eligible to receive a loan and forgiveness. We. Are reviewing all loans. Moreover, we. Have provided, the opportunity, for business, or lenders, who. Believe that their reported, information is inaccurate to, contact, us and we, will work with them to fix it at. The same time we, should not lose sight of the fact that this unprecedented, program, has emerged, as one of the most successful and, consequential, federal economic response efforts in history. That, success. Is the result of a collaborative effort that, includes the White House Treasury. SBA. The lending, community chambers. Of commerce and importantly. Each, and every, one of you I know. That there is more work to be done and we all share the same goal of helping. Small businesses, across the country I look. Forward to working with this committee and other members of Congress thank, you Thank. You administrator, Carranza. Mr.. Secretary. Minuchin, you're now recognized, for five minutes thank. You very much chairwoman Velazquez. Ranking, members habit and members of the committee I am, pleased to join you today to discuss, how the Department, of Treasury and the SBA are working together to provide relief to business, and their workers through the PPP, we. Remain committed to working together, until every, American gets back to work as quickly as possible. America's. Economy continues. To recover from the challenges, posed by kovat, 19, for. The second month in a row the jobs report vastly, exceeded, forecasts with a record, of nearly 5 million jobs this. Brings the two-month, gain to approximately, 8 million jobs while. Unemployment rate is still historically high, we are seeing additional signs, and conditions, of improvement, the, blue-chip report, is forecasting. That our GDP, will grow by 18 percent in the third quarter the. US Chamber of Commerce reports. That 79, percent of small businesses are at least partially, open, and half. The remaining businesses, will open soon retail. Sales rose by 18 percent in May and by. Seven-and-a-half percent in June but. Let me point out June. Was actually, 1.1. Percent higher. Than the, same June, 2019. This. Is a result of all of our programs, working with Congress. Investors. And businesses have historically, high-caste positions, and are beginning to put them back to work we. Are in a strong position to, recover because the Trump administration worked. With Congress, to pass legislation on. An, overwhelmingly. Bipartisan. Basis, and provide liquidity, to workers, and markets, and record time in particular. The PPP, is keeping, tens of millions, of employees in their jobs, economic. Impact payments, are helping millions of families, we. Are monitoring, economic. Conditions, closely, certain. Industries, such as construction or, Iraq recovering, quickly while, retail, and travel, are facing, longer-term, prospects. We. Are sensitive to the fact that certain areas of the country are experiencing. Increased, numbers of cases, the. Task force working with, state and local officials is, helping to ensure that people can work safely, in this, environment, we, look forward to continued, conversations. With this committee and other members, of Congress to, address these critical issues, turning. To the PPP, the SBA and Treasury worked together to, launch this an unprecedented. Time we. Approved over five million loans, for five hundred and seventeen, billion to support the employment of over 50 million jobs, this. Is truly an extraordinary achievement.
And We are pleased that the loans were broadly distributed and, made, across diverse, areas, of the economy with. 27. Percent of the funds going to low and moderate-income communities. Which. Is consistent. With the proportion, of the percentage, of the population as, you. Might expect with, a program, of this magnitude executed. On a national, scale rapidly, we. Initially, experienced, some complications. We, resolve, them quickly to. Implement the program our teams work with members of Congress on a bipartisan, basis, to issue rules and guidance to provide clarity, by, standing up the program quickly we were able to support tens of millions of jobs, we. Have worked closely with members of Congress in both parties to pass three subsequent, pieces of critical, legislation, we. Also reached a second round of funding for over 300, billion dollars I look, forward to these continued, bipartisan. Efforts, a next, phase of release should, extend the PPP, but. On a more targeted basis, for smaller companies and those that are especially hard-hit. Such, as restaurants, hotels and other, travel, and hospitality business. The. Treasury Department is implementing, the cares Act with transparency. And accountability, we've. Released a significant, amount of information, on our website, reporting. On usaspending.gov, and, updates. To Congress, we, are cooperating with, various, oversight, bodies. Regarding. The PPP, Treasury, and SBA regularly. Released, data on. Programs. The Treasury and IRS have, made data information, regarding, millions of economic, impact payments, available on, their website and to the GAO, we. Are pleased that the Treasury, working with the Federal Reserve has announced, to add to existing disclosure. On the liquidity, facilities, by, posting, additional information. On the website, Chairman. Pell and I have had productive discussions, with the members of the congressional, oversight, Commission, in addition. To the PPP, we. Had a hundred and sixty million payments, for. The economic, impact payments, we've made massive, amounts to support air carriers, we've, had a hundred and fifty billion to the two coronavirus. Relief fund the, Federal Reserve facility, is up and running I'm pleased, to announce that Main Street made its first loan for, twelve point three million to, doctors, offices, consisting, of 15 practices, in Wisconsin. The, lender was sterian Bank a family owned 1.2. Billion dollar community, bank there's. A 50, million dollar construction loan, which will save over 3,000, jobs in the working I look. Forward to working with Congress next. Week on a bipartisan, basis, to pass additional legislation. I'd. Like to thank the members of this committee for working with us to help the American, people and I look forward to answering your questions. Thank. You mr. secretary. I will, begin by recognizing, myself, for. Five minutes. Secretary. Minuchin. Ethics. Rules were. Waived, administratively. In the PPP. Allowing. Friends of the Trump administration to. Get access without, any further review. Meanwhile. There are thousands. Of small businesses many, owned by. Women or minority. Minorities. And located. In rural areas, that were desperately. Seeking, assistance. Were. You concerned, about those, optics. Well. Let me just say as it relates to certain. Loans that the administrator, said there will clearly be loans that are reviewed for appropriateness, but, let me just comment on the conflict of interest rules I had very specific, discussions.
With, Senator, Schumer and McConnell. On the. Conflicts, rules and it relates to the. Direct loans from Treasury, and the loans from the Federal Reserve there, were very specific, requirements. And certifications. That were required from members of Congress and, the administration as. It, relates to the SBA program. Congress. Could have included those, same requirements, but decided, not to do so and indeed. The SBA, followed. Their standard, provisions, for the SBA the SBA standards, Conduct, Commission. Determined. That the PPP, lawn should be governed by similar, disaster. Programs, and, explicitly. And again this was a committee. That did not consist, of political, people. Explicitly. Decided. To provide. The, the same waivers. That they've done for other programs. So again. We look forward to working with oversight, committees, to, make sure that proper, rules and regulations, were followed, well I welcome, that and we, intend, to exert, our. Responsibility. And our constitutional. Duty to be at the table I am. The. First minority, female. Chairing. A committee and. When. We are discussing. Lending. Programs, that. Are within the jurisdiction of this committee, I will. Demand for. The ranking member and myself to. Be at the table I insisted. That, early. Ethics, rule should not be waived. These. Are lending programs, if. It's good for the 7a, and 504, and. SBIC. Should be good for, this type of landing, and I, will insist on that, when, we sit down to discuss going. Forward, I. Understand. Idols. Were capped at a hundred, fifty thousand, in an effort, to stretch. The, funding, however. I. Asked. You administrator. The. Appropriators, asked. You and the Senate asked you on numerous occasion. If you, needed additional. Funding, and the. Answer, was not yet. Here, we are and it. Is our small businesses, that are suffering, moving. Forward, you, must work with us and I ask that you remove the cap for. New item, loans immediately. And allowed, those with, existing loans to obtain, the, capital, they deserve, you. Still have two hundred billion dollars of loan, making. Authority, left, in the idle program, while, small businesses, are hurting so. Help, us help, you. Because. Members. Of this committee, and businesses. Who came to testify before this, committee, they. Said that. They, might. Remain, open, but will. Not be able to, keep, those businesses open. Because when they were thinking then they will apply for the maximum, allowed. Allowable. Loans. Then. You, reduce, to. A hundred fifty thousand, we need to do better than that this, is not going away and too many businesses, are suffering mr.. Minow gene the. Pandemic has caused the, rate of black owned businesses. To drop by, an attorney, Sheen, 41%. And their break for latino-owned, businesses by. 32%, these. Numbers are, unacceptable. And are only going to get worse unless we, act. Now, amid. Reports. Shooting. We set aside a percentage of the remaining funds for small businesses, that need it most I just heard you saying. That you. Are going to ask for, hotel/restaurant, the traveling industry, what about minority, businesses. I. Agree. With you there should be a set aside for, small. Minority. Businesses. Thank. You thank, you so I can count on your support that, we could set aside funding, for, mission based lenders. Because. You know we are discussing. Here small. The. Smaller of the small businesses, who have no connection who. Has no pre-existing, banking. Relationships. With, those financial, institutions those. Who have relationship. Our mission. Base like, CDFI. Like, MDI like, micro, micro. Lenders and I, hope that we could going. Forward. Work. With you on that issue my. Time has, expired and, now I recognize, ranking, members tisha. Thank, you madam chair. Administrator. Crowns I'll go to you first given. The overwhelming, response, to. This emergency, is the, SBA prepared, to respond, to other disasters. Such as floods and. Hurricanes and. Fires we, know they're coming at some point are you all prepared for that, yes. Mr.. Savitt at this point, wait we have about a three type. Disaster. Declarations, that are being. Submitted by, the governor's, it's, either.
Economic. Disruption. Based on civil unrest or, its natural, disaster, and then of course the, March. Declaration. Of economic, disaster. So we're processing all three as we speak very. Good thank you. Secretary. Minuchin I'll move, to you next, does. The loan forgiveness, process, need, to be simplified, any more for example that. I know there's some members of Congress that have suggested. Perhaps. Even forgiving, all. The loans under. $150,000. For example, I'm not saying that we, should or shouldn't do that but I'd love to hear your kind of thoughts, about it I've heard a lot of concerns from, folks out there about how complicated. To forgive, process, can be, if. You could talk a little about but we look forward to working with this committee and the Senate Small, Business Committee to, simplify. The process there were provisions in, the existing, Act that. Made, it complicated we tried to issue as much guidance, as we could I know. One of the things, we'll talk about is should, we just have forgiveness for all the small loans I think that's something we should consider we, should obviously make, sure there's some fraud protection but. We look forward to working with this, committee and others thank. You, as. You know at this point there's approximately. A hundred and thirty billion, dollars. That's still in the PPP. Program. So everyone's, talking about so what do we do with that you. Know do we reduce. The. Number of employees eligible. From say five hundred down to 100 or do we stick with what we have do we do a second. PPP, and I know these are negotiations. That. Everyone. Is having now including. The administration, the. House the Senate this committee and others what. Are your current thoughts. About. That the. The administration. Supports, using. The existing, money and topping. It up with some additional money and that that will be discussed, in allowing. For a second, payment to, the businesses, that are especially, hard-hit and in chairwoman, let me just say I was only giving examples, of business. I didn't mean to anyway, implied that those are the only businesses. That are hard-hit, I think. This time we need to have a revenue, test, and make, sure that money, is going to businesses, that have significant.
Revenue, Declines, that's. Something, that Congress didn't, have in the first provision, so, but make sure that the businesses, that are especially, hard-hit, particularly, small businesses, and put, in certain safeguards so. Some of the types, of people we saw that took out loans and and I look forward to working with Congress if, Congress wants to put back in the conflict, rules we're, more than happy to work with Congress, the, administration supports. We will participate, on the same basis, of the, house in the Senate, and. Only secretary, minuchin also one of the things that. And you all were, operating. Under, impossible. Time constraints. You know we passed this I was a signing ceremony on a Friday the, next week the loans were literally, going out the door although, not, that many and it wasn't glitch. Free we all know that but you. All got your act together pretty quickly and and saved a whole, lot of businesses all across the, country and god bless you all for doing that and this, committee was involved in it many others as well but, I know one of the things that was was frustrating, and again I don't want to be critical here but was frustrating, I heard this from lenders, I heard this from small business folks I heard from our staff was, just the. Time it took to get the guidance out so people knew what the rules were what we were all operating, under, you. Have any thoughts for the future as to what we might be able to, do with. Sure let. Me say you know in one of the more ridiculous, statements, I've ever made I committed we get the program up in two weeks and working. With the SBA and. The staffs, we were able to do that now obviously. In doing that it ran into a lot of issues but we made the judgment it, was more important, to get it up and running quickly that. Sending, money to people four months later wasn't, going to help small businesses now, that we have it up and running especially. To the extent there are minor changes, to the, PPP. And the idle programs, working, with the SBA we can get the guidance out very quickly we won't have the technology, problems we had last time and again. I would encourage this, committee to, work in the context. Of these, programs, and put more restraints. The other thing I think you should consider on the idle is now that we have Main Street open for, loans above. 250,000. That we really do focus idle, on loans that are 250, and below thank, you very much my times expired manager. Gentleman's. Time has expire. And then we recognize, the gentlelady, from Iowa. Miss. Think an hour for. Five minutes. Thank. You madam chair. I so, just for the. Secretary. Secretary, Carranza, for you guys to understand, the district that I represent, is. In. Northeast Iowa, is has. Three bigger city centers and the rest is pretty rural and our, district has been hit very hard. On. A number of levels whether, it's been the, attacks on our agricultural, community over. The last few years or, now this pandemic. And how it has affected not, just our cities but also our rural areas as well and. One of the things I want to touch on secretary. Minuchin I know you brought this up but, really, want to dive into this are those economic. Impact, payments, those. Direct assessment assistant, payments that are important, for individuals. Who are worried about how are they going to pay their mortgage their rent put food on the table but also for, our local businesses, as well who have been able to stay open to. Have some, sort, of economic, stimulus here during this pandemic and one. Of the things that I was really concerned about is. When these went out to, folks obviously, if, they, had their direct deposit set up those went into their account most of them however, we, heard from 700. People within, my district, about these payments, who did not receive, them or they, received them but they were in the debit cards, and didn't, realize that they were these, economic.
And Impact, payments, and so why. Was, this set up the, way that it was why, was there no, no. Real. Communication. Out, to these districts, out to folks we need to understand, how. These were coming out and then also I know we wrote you a letter actually secretary, secretary, minuchin about. The fees and reissuing. These cards because so many folks were throwing them away I'm, glad you listened and decided, to waive that, 750, charge, for replacing, but why. Does it cost. $17. To. Priority, ship these cards to folks why. Do taxpayers, who need their money now have, to wait longer and it, costs them more this. Is just something again that needs to be dealt with and I'm, glad you fixed a piece of it but what are we gonna do down the road when hopefully, we issue more, support, to folks and actually, have that education and. Why was this done in the first. Well. Thank, for your comments and let me just say, the. Fact that there were 700. Of those and your community, is is inexcusable. And, if you have specific, issues we're happy to follow up I would. Say the, IRS, and fiscal, services did an extraordinary, job in sending, out over a hundred and fifty million again, in a record period of time the. Debit cards you did point out something we didn't realize, that, the debit cards were sent in unmarked. Envelopes, we. Will correct that going forward I do think the debit cards actually was an interesting, addition for, two reasons one it allowed us to get payments. Out quicker since we could only create. So many checks and to, going, forward, debora. Those. Checks, or. Paperwork. That went out with those I can assure you there was there was zero delay, associated. With either one of those issues it had no impact on the time we, were limited in the number of checks, we could print per week but that had no impact on it and I. Think the fees were waived if the fees weren't waived and you had constituents, that still have issues again I'm happy to follow up on that. You. You let me know and we'll follow up that should be waived as well, thank. You and, then I also have a question about the PPP, program obviously this has been incredibly, important, all over the country and in, districts like mine but, I have to be honest I was really disappointed at the beginning when this rolled out I mean we, we allocate, these dollars and then they go to these agencies, so they go to SVA they go to Treasury, to set up how these are doled out and, communities. Like mine quite, frankly we're left behind because we have the highest, concentration. Of community. Based financial, institutions, in the, entire country within, my district, and so, the. First batch essentially, went to big banks and people who are connected with their banks and left out communities, like mine that either of you think about how this would impact our, folks, who lend, community based financial institutions. Why was this done the way that it was at the very beginning and how, can we ensure I know we have that set aside now for, those dollars but, how, can we ensure that as we continue, to look at this that we are doing, what we should here, with these agencies, to make sure we don't forget about rural, areas I mean on the SBA I understand. As well that, we lost the head of Rural Affairs during. That actually she got moved I know we're, you know short on staffing to deal with this but not the time to move somebody that represents rural. Area. If. You wish to answer, the question sir I, can. Assure you we, are very focused in making sure that the community banks, and the CDF eyes have equal access and you're, correct unfortunately, there were issues in the beginning we corrected, it very quickly. Thank. You the gentleman from, Ohio mr., Bolson is recognized, for five minutes. Thank. You madam chair thank, you both for being here today, my, first question is for the administrator, thank, you again for being here today administrator, I greatly greatly appreciate. Your leadership through, this pandemic I would, also like to convey, to you that your local office in my district, Columbus. Ohio SBA. Has. Been a phenomenal, partner and resource, for me we, have been doing a back to business tour for the last three weeks.
Everett. Would Dale from your office has been with, me along, the way and his team and we're very grateful and to, see the business owners that encounter, the SBA while we're there and to put a face with the name is is very. Pleasing. For them as well so thank you an issue, that I've heard more and more about. From my constituents, is the lack of clarity on PPP. Forgiveness. Specifically. I hear this often from business owners looking, to have their businesses bought out, this. Could be because of the pandemic, or a planned. Sale prior to Kovan 19, that's, been placed on hold because of the virus in, this. Situation, the business owner took PPP, in order, to support their employees and, now, they cannot sell their business with, this forgivable, loan on the books, why. Is this. Thank. You coachman this is a situation that I'd have to speak. With you personally. Or an. Address the. Particular case because this, is news to me about. Them. Taking a PPP and then wanting to sell it's not it's, not a. New. Incident, where small, businesses, that are ready. To sell because they don't care. To go through another pandemic, or another crisis, they're in a position, and. Interested. In selling their company but the PPP, or the idle loan issue. Was not raised when we had those discussions but. I have experience similar, to you that there are businesses, that are ready, to sell, but. I'd have to look into and, then I'll concur, with it with the Treasury. On how, to manage that, situation where in the, forgiveness we, haven't addressed that at this point an. Entity, wanting to sell, their. Firm and they have a loan we, will. Work with you on that in, the business one, for example that, I've been in. Communication with, they. Were doing, an exchange in. January. Before the pandemic hit so this is most, of them that I've been in contact, with have been having. This issue before the pandemic even started, so we. Will work with your office and, address that thank you very much looks forward to it. Mr.. Minuchin thank you my, next question is for you I've introduced, legislation with. My colleague, from, across. The aisle congresswoman. Brenda Lawrence that would provide a tax credit for small businesses, to purchase and install PPE, and related, safety equipment, this. Legislation, would help small businesses, that are suffering financially. Under the weight of mandatory closures, be. Able to afford the personal protective equipment required. To reopen their doors are. You open to working with myself. And, miss Lawrence, to ensure small businesses, are safely prepared, to welcome customers again.
Yes. Absolutely and I'm not familiar with this specific legislation, but I like the concept a lot. Appreciated. It's up to $25,000. Tax credit so thank you I look forward to that administrator. Back to you if a business owner, decides. To use personal finances, monies, that's, not associated, with their business, to, pay off their PPP, loan in order, to move forward with the sale of business they, just have to eat this as a loss and again, that may be something that you and I may need to sit and discuss, yes. I agree I have, to understand, all the nuances to a particular situation, I understand. And also perhaps there's, other businesses, that may be facing the same thing that. We need to look into thank. You very much. Mr.. Secretary my last question is for you I greatly appreciate, your leadership in a minute it's been fascinating, to watch you as, we look towards, the next aid package, much of the focus seems to be on providing, aids to schools hospitals. And first responders, I support. These efforts but also believe we must continue consideration, of America's. Economic engine, small business, and I know that madam, chair and ranking member Chabot, have both talked about this what, types of considerations, for small businesses, and workforce development efforts, are also being considered, and. I didn't leave you much time mr., secretary, various. Items but again I think that's something that should be considered and we look forward to working with you thank. You sir madam. Chair, I yield back my remaining time the gentleman, yields, back now we recognize the gentleman from Maine mr.. Golden for. Five minutes. Thank. You madam chair. Secretary. Manoosh I have a question, that I'd like to raise with you but first I just wanted to point out as you were talking. In your opening statement about. Extending. The PPP, program. But. Perhaps, trying.
To Target the assistance. To businesses. That need, that help the. Most as. Well as maybe learning from some of the lessons along the ways as we've worked on the PPP. Program, together I want, to encourage you to look at the restart, act introduced. In the Senate by senators, Bennet, and young. And here, in the house by myself this. Bill builds upon the PPP, program, it models itself, after that but. I think importantly, it has some provisions, in there that would target the a2 businesses. That can demonstrate that, they have in fact suffered, revenue. Over, the last past. Several months related. To coronavirus. And the economic, impact so. I don't know if you're familiar with the restart act but I would encourage you to give it a look as you're looking, to improve upon whatever it is that we do, next to assist businesses, here, in the United States as we shift into her cover, yes. I. Am. Familiar with it and I think parts, of it should should be incorporated. Thank. You for that I look forward to working, with with. You and with the Senators and House, members on something. Something. Similar to, PPP, and the, program. Proposing to restart, I want to raise an issue with you on behalf. Of critical. Access care hospitals. Including, some, in my district, are you familiar with critical. Access, hospitals. A, little. Bit. Yep, you. Know federally, defined as, providing. Important, healthcare access in, rural. Areas, in, rural communities. Where. These. Are hospitals, that are going to operate under very, thin margins. And, struggle. Financially but, it's important, the federal government recognizes how important they are to access to care in. Addition to access to health, care they're, often the largest. Employers in in a rural region and. Therefore are just critically, important, now. The. Your. Your, department. Has. I, think. Right we looked at. Organizations. Applying. For PPP, who are, foregoing. You know undergoing bankruptcy. As ineligible, I understand, why you would do that under normal circumstances. But. There are a number of critical, care hospitals. In the nation who, are undergoing, Chapter eleven restructurings. And given, the fact that we're dealing with a, pandemic. And a recession, and that these hospitals, have a very unique federally. Recognized, mission, and. Are providing, important access to health care in areas where. It's going to be hard. Even. In good times to. You, know be, making. Money. Really like nonprofit, hospital. Organizations. I was, wondering, if you would consider. Reconsidering. Eligibility. For critical. Care hospitals. Undergoing, Chapter eleven restructurings. For the remaining, PPP. Funding, that you have to date they've been excluded and, you can imagine during this pen temp pandemic, in the recession the, fact that they couldn't do, certain types of you. Know services, that, they normally would be doing they're, really struggling and several, of them are. At, risk of closing which. Would be a terrible loss for these communities. I'm. Very sympathetic to those types of hospitals and we look forward to working with you and considering, that.
Well. I appreciate, that very much as you know you know you, the. Treasury and SBA have been able to make some changes in. The, program for, eligibility, for, organizations. To include some. Nonprofit. Hospitals, that are tax-exempt, under section 1 1 5 and hospitals owned by state. Or local government. As, well as others but I think that, you. Know though, those jobs obviously, very important in rural communities but, even more important is ensuring, the access to care is is preserved, and. They they have been applying for PPP. They, were rejected. In. Some instances, some of these hospitals have gone to courts who. Essentially, have said that the. Determinations. Made by the Treasury, and, SBA would have to be changed or Congress would have to act so I don't know if you think that you need some. Kind of legislative, action, or if you think that you have the authority you do to look at this and make that change yourself but I want to thank you for. Working with both my office but also Senator, King, and Senator. Collins from. Maine and I'm sure other, senators, who represent, similar hospitals, in similar situation, are. Eager to work with you to try and help these hospitals. The. Gentleman's, time has expired. And now we recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma, mr. horn. Thank you madam chair ranking member and Chabot, secretary. Administrator. Thank you both for being here in person for, this this is unprecedented. Times, mr., secretary our office is dealt with many people who have waited weeks and weeks further unemployment. Checks to get approved at the state level thousands, of thousands across the country I'm sure as you, may remember we, discussed this on a phone call over four months ago where we noted that under the current capacity states. Were ill-equipped to handle the influx of unemployment applications, to. Combat this problem to keep hardworking, Americans, employed Congress. Worked in a bipartisan, way. Unprecedented. Actually, in today's times to, establish the Paycheck protection, program and. While I believe this program could have been expanded, in work have been done to help the 40 million Americans who are currently unemployed. This. Program has successfully say 51 million jobs in America which. Was designed so that we come out of this pandemic. That we can quickly stand up the economy which is what we've been seeing happen in May and June and continue, to see that happen now, you. Have stated many times that. The priority, of the PPP, was to predominantly. Preserve. And save, jobs and employees rather than the business owners themselves, would.
You Still agree with that statement yes. Additionally. Could you discuss what you've learned from this or strategies, that the federal government can implement in the future to better prepare for. This next situation or the situation in, future. Well. Let me just comment on. One. Of the things we liked about the PPP, was all the money we were spending on the. Employment side of this was money we save done in unemployment I think one of the issues we've learnt and we have to fix in the next legislation. Is the, technical issue where in certain cases states. With the top up we're paying people more not. To work than, to work and as. You said some, of the states were better prepared some of these states are 40. Year old computers. I also, want to just say one thing I know a lot of people use this 40 million people unemployed fortunately. It's not 40. Million unemployed people thought we'd get to that but. Fortunately. Right now we only have 18, million unemployed. And, we. Have about 14. Million more, than. Where we started this and we got to get those people back to work but thank you thank, you further. My case work team has worked with hundreds of people who have the difficult they have, had difficulties, receiving their stimulus check and I, know you're aware of this we've talked to your offices. Can. You briefly explain very, briefly what. We've seen happen and why is. There a big issue here are all, these one-offs I, mean. Let me just say all these one-offs, I'm sympathetic because these are real people who want their checks so I don't mean to anyway minimize. This but. Again, we sent out over a hundred, and fifty million checks, in record, time and, yes. There were certain, cases because, they were either, done off of previous tax returns, or other information that we got and that's unacceptable but. We'll. Work with you on it Thank You, administrator. Carranza, two weeks ago associate, administrator Rivera. Testified. Before the committee regarding, the idle program and during, my conversation.
With The administrator, he, committed to providing, this committee, with a document, outlining some best practices, by, the end of the third quarter September, 30 of 2020, this. Will be a document to. Explain what, the SBA has learned and how. You all, believe you could better prepare, be prepared in the future should, another pandemic arise, just. As. A side note in that the director, or the excuse me the administrator, had stated he'd been here since 9/11, he had been through 9/11, the financial, crisis, and you. Know we keep reinventing, the will and it seems with all of us engaged in this in a very bipartisan, way that we could put a pandemic, PlayBook, in place so. That we can learn from our mistakes and not repeat them again because when we make mistakes. People. Are harmed or not. At least given stimulus. When they need it so if we could learn from those mistakes and, and do, better that would be great and I think that would be a way to do it a non-political way that we could put these on the shelf one. Of the key components this document will be to design a communication, plan for future pandemics which, would greatly help all of us work together would. You commit to seeing, that get done by the end of the third quarter. Yes congressman, we've. Already begun we've prepared. The first deck on how we were addressing, fraud, we, have also. Staffed up I've started, with two, additional, executives. Scss and Oda so, we're going to reinforce. The, leadership, in Oda for, future. Situations, and in preparation, for the end of the year so. Definitely. You'll have a full, SOP or mo P well. As. Business people and, then here in this room I've been in business 35 years you know we can talk about what happened but that doesn't really solve a problem so if we can in Dell, in a document, what those issues were so that we can not make those again we'll make new ones and that's. That's human nature but if we can get that done that would be great for us and madam, chair ranking. Member I thank you for allowing, us to have this meeting and it's very important and thank both of you for being here for what you've done in these unprecedented, times thank you for to continue working with you thank you gentleman's. Time has expired. So now we recognize the gentleman from New Jersey mr., King for five minutes Thank. You chairwoman for convening, this hearing thank you to the witnesses for, showing up. Secretary, minuchin I wanted to start with you you, rightfully noted, in your testimony, that small businesses, or continuing, to face a dire circumstance. Right now even those they've received paycheck. Protection program loans are telling me that they're you, know they're unsure whether or not they're going to be able to survive and there are a lot of concerns about just, a bigger state of our economy and whether, or not our economy, is going to be able to pursue through these coming months and and. If not is that going to have a negative impact on our small businesses, in, my home state in New Jersey we've gone through a really, tough time over the last couple months and we faced a tough challenge up, ahead when, it comes to our state economy we've.
Been It's been crippled. And we have dramatically. Hampered, our recovery, especially for small businesses, and these. Are not just about kovat related, expenses, it's about loss, of revenue that could very well create widespread layoffs. Decrease. Consumer, spending weaken, our investment, in our communities. Secretary. I wanted to ask you if you would commit to working with Congress to ensure that we have the necessary funding. To our states and local, municipalities, to solve, the crisis that we face. And create, a strong economic, recovery. Well. I think as you know we we, allocated, significant, amounts of money to, kovat, related, expenses, we've tried to issue guidance, to be very clear that money can be used for law enforcement first. Responders and. Others, I. Think. The the issue of lost revenues, is a much more complicated, issue, and, the. Issue of taxing, authorities, between, the state, and the federal government but we will be working with Congress, on this what, I raise this because you know I've heard, you talk about before what. Could potentially come next with state and local funding on this and I, think it's really important and central to this discussion that we're gonna be having over the coming weeks about, this when, I've heard you talk about it before you've previously described. This money as bailouts. For some states and, so I just want to hear from you a little bit more on that front I believe, that for you perhaps. It's that you don't want to see this funding go into states that, you characterize, as mismanaging. Funds because you don't think that would be fair that it wouldn't be fair to other states that are working hard on their economy and their budget, so why have them cover for other states is that is, that sort of a correct interpretation. Of, your assessment, well, what I have said and I agree with this that what if there were financial conditions. That states had coming into this, it's. Not the federal government's, role to bail, them out of that now we have through Main Street excuse. Me through the Fed facilities, we have provided lending, facilities, to. The states and. Municipalities, but. The, issue of, taxing. Authority, there's a the, federal government has taxing, authority, and the states have taxing authority, so where there are lost revenues.
I Think, there is a fairness, issue of how those get allocated across the country well I agree with you that there's a fairness issue here at stake and in New Jersey our. State only gets back somewhere around 75, cents, to 81, cents for every dollar that we put into the federal government it's one of the lowest in the nation all those states get back well over $1 some $2, Kentucky gets back about two dollars and 35 cents last I saw so. I guess I'd ask you is that fair, is that fair to the residents, of neutral, let me just say I've lived in New York in California, in both New York and California sight, those numbers as well I don't, believe that that that is an appropriate number. Because the answer is more rich people live in those states and because. Of the way we have taxes, and and the rich people are the ones who pay the preponderance of federal taxes, I don't believe the calculation. As a result, is. Is the right way to look at things ok well that that's helpful made it for me to understand how you're approaching this problem and I want to continue to work with you on that because from my standpoint, if New Jersey is often, calculating, that we give. Into the federal government about twenty billion dollars more than what we get back every year I think there is an issue of fairness here, and I really don't want us in the middle of a pandemic, to get to a situation where, we're trying to pit States against each other we saw that with personal protective equipment and now with funding I think there's a chance for us to really come, together here, and try to think about this especially when we know that current and former Fed chairs all have said have reportedly. Warned that economic, recovery could, be hampered, if we do not appropriate. More aid to state and localities. Just. Switching gears here at the very end administrator. Carranza, I understand. That the economic, injury disaster, loans were capped at, $150,000.
To Ensure all borrowers, could access, the funds however. This policy, shortchanged. Many, businesses, so I wanted to ask you moving forward will you commit to removing, this, cap for new EE IDL's, and to, allow the existing. Loans to obtain, more funding, in Phase two Congress. What, our experiences. Currently. Is that the average loan has dropped from 63. To 57,000. Down to about, 37,000. Since. We've opened in june/july. Excuse me and so. At this, point, the. Operating. Expenses, that people apply for are. Not are, not hitting, the, cap in. Great numbers about 1% of the applicants, are pursuing. That, amount 80%, of the loans that we have processed come in significantly. Under the hundred and fifty thousand but I will continue, assessing. It we're reviewing that on a daily basis congressman so, I look, forward to working with your office, thank. You. There's many times that thank. You well we. Are over time but. I expect, for you to. Lift that Cup, especially. When there are other states that are facing, now the, pandemic you. Cannot predict, if any, business, from those states will. Need more than, 150,000. So. The fact that now, from. The, pre those. Other, states you're, not getting, those type of applications, or that type of amount, doesn't. Mean that, that will apply to every other, businesses. You have the opportunity, to, be able to apply for over, a hundred fifty, thousand, if that is what they need. Congress. Women at, this time since we opened up the portal, we, have an additional, five million, applications. We. Have a probably. About 14th of may be certainly 15 to 20 days remaining, with the remaining funds so, if I keep that, level of 150, I will, be able to service five more million. Small businesses, but from the beginning, appropriators. Myself. Included, Senator. Cardin, and some, of the Senators ask you if you needed more than, what. We. Included. In the, bill and you said yes, so, come. To us. Tell. Us when, we asked if that is enough. Yes. I will work with your office. Thank. You and now, we recognize, the gentleman from Minnesota. Thank. You. I, also want to thank the two witnesses, for being here today so. Secretary Carranza. This kind of follows what. The. Chairwoman, just talked about at. First like I first like to share with you some concerns that I've heard from my constituents and, it, seems. That the SBA has taken some liberties to, reduce the cap of loans given up from, 2, million, to, 150,000. Well, this is likely to, ensure the maximum number, of businesses, receive some, sort of funding during this crisis, my, constituents. Are right the upset they feel that, they are being cheated out of what they were promised, by their government, I, heard, from. Your colleague, mr. Rivera on this issue a couple of weeks ago but, I wanted, to give you the opportunity, to respond, today. Yes. Congressman, I also receive, emails, where. Their. Calculation. On operating expenses, may have not reached. 150,000. And we have taken, those under special. Reconsideration. And looked, at ways where, we could increase that amount. Secondly. To. Exceed. The 150,000. At this given time, would. Be premature. Because. We have 5 million applications, currently, I as, I stated to the chairwoman if. There, are needs for funds then, we will bring. That up for discussion what. We do with, the applicants that need more fun is we counsel them that there is a PPP, program. Also that's a forgiveness loan. And we. Provide. Technical assistance we don't influence, no do we recommend, we just share, that, there's also another, option. That they can consider. We. We don't take lightly we don't take lightly the. Fact that businesses. Are in need of funds it's, an emergency lifeline, that we initially, thought it was going to this pandemic was going to be two weeks and now it's a couple of months and so we recognize the fact that they are in need of greater funds.
Thank. You. As. I've said before the. SBA and the Treasury were given a nearly impossible task. And while, there have been some, bumps in the road we appreciate the work that you, secretary. Ron's and secretary of minutia and your respective, teams have put in to helping the small businesses, across this nation during this pandemic. My. Last question will go to secretary, evolution you know shifting gears a little bit I've been hearing from local grocery, stores and convenience stores, of the coin shortage, what. Are your thoughts for addressing, this issue and, have you considered some, type, of public, messaging. Or political. A PR, campaign to, help gemsto. Jumpstart. The coin circulation. Across the nation secretary. Minutiae, thank. You we are working very closely with the mint and the Federal Reserve on the coin shortage and that, the mint is working, overtime as is as you said as a result of covet, a lot, of the coinage, is stock, but. We, are. Working on a public, messaging, and and we'll get updates. To your office. Even. Thank You mr., secretary, I would say this committee would, be would. Be happy, to help you in, that public, relations campaign. And, with, that. The. Gentleman yields, back and then we recognize, the gentleman from Colorado, mr. crow. Thank. You madam chair. Today. Administrator. Carranza, on July 6 the SBA sent, to Congress, a list of the, loans distributed. By congressional district, they sent to my office a, list. Showing, 317. Small business, small. Businesses, in my district received loans over 150,000. And, over 3600. Received loans less than that I knew, that wasn't right given. The number of small businesses in my districts we conducted our own analysis. And determined. That there were actually over 1,400. Businesses, in my district that received loans over 150,000. And over 10,000.