Interview with Mark Mobius: Russian investments, global crises and optimism
A few very brave people were able to put this together and form a stock market is a quite an accomplishment, we, started, with a hundred million dollars and at the peak we had 70. Billion of the Russian, colleagues. Were always ready, to challenge. The. Prevailing, sentiment, well the Russian government will, always pay their bonds because there in rubles there's no reason why they shouldn't pay biggest, achievement, is the fact that it exists, the, world belongs, to Optus mountainous, you got to be optimistic. Yes history. Repeats itself. Mark. Mobius, guru. Of emerging, markets one, of the first institutional. Investors, in Russia a manager. With more than 30 years of experience in. 1987. Mark Mobius, began, to manage an investment, fund focused, on emerging, markets which at the time were, referred to as underdeveloped, the, specialized, templeton, Russia and East Europe fund was established in. 1995. With, its investments, in Russian, assets reaching, a peak of two billion, dollars, and Mobius, increasing. The total amount of funds invested, in emerging, markets from 100, million to 70, billion, dollars in, the early 2000s. And from, 2010, to 2015. Mobius. Was the independent director, of Lukoil where he helped the company to set up audit and strategic. Planning committees, in 2018. At the age of 81 mark, Mobius, resigned, from the post of executive, chairman of the board of directors, of the Templeton emerging, markets group and founded. His own managing, company Mobius. Capital, Partners together, with two partners. Mark, dear mark thank. You for agreeing to meet with us and support our project. We. Have a lot of questions well in. 1987. You decided, to establish a, fund that would be oriented, towards emerging, markets at. That time it, was a completely, unexplored, territory, and you. Were already at a fairly mature age how. Did you come to this decision. Well. Thank you for having me it's a pleasure to be on this film because I think it's. Going to be very, important, for the Russian public to see a history, of the stock market in Russia. As. You said I saw it in 1987. With. The very first emerging. Markets fund listed on the New York Stock Exchange and. At. That time. Merging. Markets, were not, called emerging, markets they were called the, underdeveloped, countries, the, poor countries, the south, and so forth and so on and. Of course as you know at that time. Soviet. Union was in place there were no stock exchanges, we could invest there China, was also closed. Most. Countries around the world were, either. Dictatorships. Or were. Socialist. Communist, which did not welcome market. Economies, so. When, we started in 1987. There, were only six markets, in which we could invest he. Was Hong Kong Philippines. Singapore. Thailand. Malaysia, and. Mexico. That, was it. Now. There, are over 70, countries around the world but the, reason why I was so eager to start this, fund with John Templeton, was. That I knew. That. There was a transition. Taking place globally. Where. Countries. Were beginning, to adopt the, idea of a market economy. Because. I studied economic, development, at MIT, Massachusetts Institute, of. Technology and, that. Time the professor's were always talking about you. Know how. Countries, grow how, can. We get a country to grow we build a railroad, build. A steel mill but. We. Tried all that but it didn't happen and they, finally concluded, that you had to have a market, economy and that. Was adopted by the multilateral. Institutions, such as the World Bank I have, see and so forth and so that, was the change that was happening when we started the fund and of. Course as you know there's. Been tremendous changes, since then. When. Did you start investing, in Russia, in. 1994. I first, visited and, in. 1995. We, started investing, and as you know one, of the disastrous, investments, we made was.
In Government bonds in Russia because, we said well the Russian government will, always pay their bonds because they're in rubles there's no reason why they shouldn't pay and of course that was a disaster. From. 1995. To, 1998. What, do you remember about this time what investments. Did you make did you participate in the privatization, well. Probably the most, one of the most memorable moments was, at the very very beginning when, we first went we. Were going to establish an office in Moscow and the. Accountant. That was helping. Us set up the office said. Look I have a client, who, is a broker of. Stock. Exchange broker and he would like to have a foreign, investor, working. With him and I. Said fine you, want you to have them come. To my hotel. The Kempinski. Hotel at. 3 o'clock and I. Don't forget it I went I said please, meet me at the concierge desk and, I. Went. Up to the desk and I saw these three, teenagers. They look like teenagers, and I. Said look. I'm. Looking for the president, of Vuitton the, brokerage, he, said you're talking to him that was of Getty and he. He, was the young guy, I guess he was his early. 20s at that time and he, started this company and we worked together very closely since, then and after. That we saw that investing, in so, many good companies like, no real Snickle, and I. Was, particularly. Interesting. When we invested. In Willman Don the. Juice company, and, it goes everybody said why do they have such a name and we discovered, that the, president. Loved tennis and he called it after. The tennis. Name but he Russia, fide the the name so. We had lots of interesting, investments. At that time. You. Know some guru what, I see special say in 1998. The, first major, crisis, occurred in Russia the. State refused, to pay its obligations a large. Number of financial institutions, ceased to exist at. That stage what, investments, did you have in Russia and how, do you recall this time well, we it was a global crisis as you know the, Asian financial crisis. Came and so. It was not only Russia but there, was happening all over the world and. We. Always took a long-range, view I mean even at the very beginning, in Russia we knew things, were, going to be difficult.
But. We figured that the. Future, the way things were happening in Russia the, future was very bright things were going to be, very well and the, main reason for thinking that is of. Course the, people one. Of the things we found that Russian. People are very well educated so. We knew that they had the recent resources. To. Grow and to do very well and then of course the fact that the country is so big and has, so many natural resources also. Was a big plus so. We were even despite, this crisis. We were not. Frightened. To continue, investing, and, thankfully. Our investors, stayed. With us as well we. We had didn't, have many redemptions. In our funds at that time. Wolski's, we're putting super uber on you have your own principles. For choosing investment. Targets you. Travel, a lot meet, with companies, you wrote. In the book the, investors, guide to emerging, markets that, it is very important, to understand, the potential, within, a management, team can. You. Tell us how decisions were taken in, Russia and. How in a relatively, short time one. Can determine whether, a management, team has potential, well. As you know numbers, are very important you have to look at the financials. Of the companies what is the balance sheet look like what, are the profits, look like what, is the growth of earnings, and so forth but, over the years I found out the, most important, factors the people the, people behind, the company who. Is running the company who is controlling the company, what. Is their integrity. What. Kind of behavior, if they had in the past so. More. And more as we invest, and have the experience in investing we. Look more, closely at the people behind, the company we look at their backgrounds, so forth and. You. Know it was saying if you look at the, Russian, companies for example I. Remember. There. Were two great, private. Oil companies, in Russia as you know and, we. Decided to invest, in look. Oil and. The reason is that when. I met the management, I really, saw. That these people had very. High integrity number, one and. Number two they. Had experience, in the, oil business. Way. Back going, back, through. The Soviet times and so forth so. That's a good example of where looking. At the people behind, the company really paid off for us because the investment. Was very very, successful. At. Some point you decided to enter the asset management market, in Russia and, you had a joint project with a Tom can. You comment on what goals you set for yourself, well. First, of all I as, you know I met. Kenny. When. He was just starting and I, saw his company grow and I saw that he was doing very well and he. Had very high integrity so. That's the reason why basically. It was I mean they we, could have had joint ventures with a number, of very large companies with, lots of money but. We decided that it was better to to. Work with Adam because the integrity, was so high and we knew that they had the capability a, good, people intelligent, people who, really. Had the ambition to grow when. Least little you invested, in many markets were. There any distinct, features of the Russian market at the initial, stage of development the, difference. In in Russia Russia is very unique in in, a number of ways but the most important, difference is that. You. Come from a. Government. Structure which. Was Soviet, communist structure. Overnight. To a capital. Market. Structure, and that was a very very difficult and painful experience. For so many people and I. Think it. Probably was done too rapidly, he probably would have been better if it, had gone in done in a more gradual way so, in that sense Russia.
Is Very very unique I can't think of many. Instances. The other example, of course would be China but China it, took quite a long time they they took their time and did it step by step but Russia didn't in a very radical way. Which, made it quite, difficult so. I would, say that that's probably the unique aspect, of you, know what happened in Russia you. Lose importance, I still, shudder to remember, 2008. Huge very, serious, crisis, it. Seemed like it was the collapse of the entire financial system. How. Did you face that here. What. Difficult, decisions, did you have to take during, the crisis, in 2008. Well. You know it's interesting that it was a big, crisis, in America of course the. Housing, crisis. Subprime. Mortgages. And so forth but. The interesting thing is that if you look closely at. Some of the emerging countries they, were actually, continuing. To do quite well in China is a good example China, kept on moving, ahead so. It. Was a good lesson I think for many investors, they realized that maybe. You. Shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket in the American basket maybe you should be diversified. Into other markets, now. Of course other, markets. Responded. To the decline in the US market but. The economies, of those countries really were not affected, that very much and. It's. A good lesson I believe going. Forward, the. Necessity. To be diversified, globally, by, investors, is becoming more and more important, because, you can avoid, being caught. Up in a u.s. problem. Where. If you're invested, in Russia or China or, Brazil or, some other countries. How. You manage, huge, funds when, markets, fall and. Investors, suffer, significant. Losses, sure. The following, year you regained, a significant, part of the losses by more the investors, but at, the peak of the crisis. How. Did you manage the expectations, of, investors and protect. Them from rash, decisions. Well. You know one of the things that I always did when I made presentations. To clients, I always. Showed a picture of a baby, and. I always said this. Is the person I'm investing, for, I'm. Thinking a long-term I, know. The baby does not know what I'm doing now but, I hopefully in 20. Years when, he, or she grows up he'll, appreciate what I've been doing and this, is the way I think investors, have to think they have to think long term otherwise. He, you're reacting into short-term events it, can be very dangerous. We. Witness the disability, through did you learn any significant. Lessons from, the events of 2008, I think. One of the most valuable, lessons is, that a when. A crisis, occurs like, that and prices. Decline, you've. Got to be ready to, go in. Because. That is the greatest opportunity that, you have these. Crises, don't. Happen that often really, most. Of the time there's. A bull market bull markets, last. Longer than bear markets, and bull, markets go up more, in percentage. Terms then. Bear markets go down so.
If You, have the strength to say. Look let me look at the fundamentals. How. These companies basically, good, are the, people running them basically good then, we should invest, because. You can go from ten to one and, it looks like a big loss but. If you invested one and, it goes to two that's, a hundred percent overnight, so. This is the kind of mentality. You have it's very difficult because of everyone around you is selling, you, don't want to it, to be buying but, you should be going in at that time let's. Polka music yes no bumping lizard frozen mark as far, as I know you. Stated, that you have to buy when, there's blood in the streets. Even. If the, blood is your own. Is. This really, your quote and does, it perhaps refer, to a specific, event. Right. I believe that was attributed, to. Rothschild. The famous, banker, who. As, you know I joined. The 1700s. Was you know investing, and the. Group became. Very wealthy but. The saying that I like. Better is the simple thing. That was done by Sir, John Templeton, who. Said to, buy when. Others are despondently. Selling, and to. Sell when. Others, are greedy buying. Requires. The greatest fortitude. And pays, the highest reward, I think, that sums. It up beautifully, because you've got to be going, in when. Other people are, selling. In the first quarter of 2014 your. Funds sold, off Russian, assets, when sanctions, were starting, to be levied against, Russia in April. 2016, in, an interview, with CNBC. You. Said that Russian, shares took a double whammy from, international. Sanctions and oils. Crash but. The market offered, the bargain, of the century do, you think this is the case now I think it, is because, I think the biggest factor. Affecting. The Russian market now are the sanctions the American sanctions, I. Think. Once the. Report. The investigation. On, President, Trump comes. Out, people. Will find that in fact there. Was really not that much interference by, the Russians, in the election, for. Donald. Trump and, where that happens, then there'll be completely. New look, at Russia and I. Believe that the the. Objective. Of Trump, is to have good relations, with Russia because. He realizes that a world power. There. Must be a dialogue between the US and Russia so. I get the feeling that things will probably get better from here. Mark. The sanctions, against Russia is. This a unique situation or. Are there analogies, in history, that you, see. And. Based, on which you can anticipate how, this stage will end for Russia it's. A very unique situation actually, I can't think of a, situation. Like that of. Course when there is war between countries. Then, of course all bets are off you're not able, to invest them you know in that country, but, in this case and peacetime. The. Imposition of these kinds of economic sanctions, I believe is very unique I can't, think of any case in, history. Where, we can draw, some conclusions. Of what what. We think might happen next but. As I said I think. This. Will go away will die out. You know. Looking. At the whole new history, of the Russian market which began, in the early 90s, in. Your, opinion what, was the most difficult, stage for Russia I think, the most difficult aspect, was first. Of all to get the Russian, people. Behind. The idea of a market economy I think. Many Russians, were unfortunately. Very, suspicious, of the. Transition, so. When the. Coupons, of the vouchers, were given to people they. Didn't know what they were they didn't trust, them and unfortunately. They. Ended, up in the hands of just very few people who, became. So-called, oligarchs, but. The, fault was not there as they saw the opportunity they, took it unfortunately. Most, of the people of Russia did not understand, what was happening so. There was a need for education. Before. That's. What I meant when I said it, was a good idea to have a slower. Transition. Towards, the market economy you, have very simple situation, here in the United Kingdom they.
Voted On brexit but they didn't know what brexit was they didn't know what. The implications were, so. That I think was the real tragedy, and that put the. Russian, market in, a. Disadvantage. What. Is the biggest achievement. In the history of the Russian market school Duncan I think. The biggest, achievement, is the fact that it exists, and that. You actually able to form, a stock market because. As I said many. People were very suspicious of, the, stock market they didn't understand what it was and the fact that, a. Few very, brave people were able to put this together and form, a stock market is a quite an accomplishment, and I, think going. Forward there's no reason why we can see better and better growth the. Stock market Russia is far, too small. It's, interesting to note that if, you look at the market. Capitalization of, the US market it's bigger than the US economy. Whereas. In the case of Russia it's, much farther than the economy so. The, Russian stock. Market has a long way to go. Voltage. Restore on August. 26. 1998, and. An interview, with the Russian magazine money. You. Said that you were convinced, that in the long turn for, most, ordinary people there. Is nothing better than mutual, funds. This. Was the peak of the 1998. Crisis, in Russia. As. Practice, has shown you. Were absolutely. Right for. Example. People who invested, with our management company at, the time of the interview have. Seen their investments, increase, 14. Times since, then in dollar terms. Looking. Ahead what, do you think is the best way to save, and, multiply, funds for private, investors. Definitely. There's the best way to invest for a number of reasons first of all you're diversified, so, you reduce your risk if, you invest in only one company if that, coming gets into trouble you. Will have very bad results but are you invested in many companies, in, a mutual fund your. Risk is lowered so, that's number one number, two if you have a skilful, investor. Like you have it a thong, then. The chances of you doing even better are, great because they're selecting. The, stocks which they, think will have the best value and will grow so. I think mutual, funds still are very very, important, for investors particularly. For most, people, who don't. Have the interest or. The ability, or the time to. Invest their money mutual. Funds are the best. Gràcia. Mark. In many aspects, in Russia and in particularly, important, ones such as private, investors, investments. In GDP. We. Are far behind developed, countries as well as our BRICS colleagues. Football. Game preaching, now what. Do you think the reason is for this in Russia. Why. Are so few people and such small volumes, invested, in the market I think. One of the reasons why you have this small, share, the economy, is that they're big parts, of the Russian economy that. Are still in state control. That.
Can Be privatise that's, one thing the, other thing is that a large, part of the. Privatization. Process that the voucher. Program, companies. Are taking over were, taken private they, were not listed because, the, people who took these companies didn't want to. Reveal what, they had so. I think there are two reasons for this relatively. Small size, of. The market. The. Important, thing of course going, forward is to get. Russians. In general, all. Russians. Interested. In investing, in, mutual funds and stock market, because, that was a way you will grow the market in the, US as you know everybody, is involved, indirectly. Or directly, the. Other aspect. Is of the. Pension. Funds. Pension. Funds and various foundations, institutions. In. Russia should be investing, more, in the, stock exchange, rather than just property or, fixed, income instruments, stock. Market investments, are very important to grow these, pension, funds, your. Book the investors, guide to emerging, markets, was published in the 90s you, wrote that for you a very important, factor for choosing where to invest in. Which countries, to invest is demography. The dynamics. Of demographic, indicators how. Well has this thesis justified. Itself as a tool for choosing, the right investments, and, now when, technology is increasingly, able to replace people has, your opinion changed, no. Not really the, population. Is important, because at. The end of the day if you look at the big economies, around the world it's. The consumer, that grows the economy good. Example is the US the. Biggest portion of the US GDP, is, consumption. And you. Look at China China. Now is trying to move in that direction they. Want a larger portion, of their. Economy, in consumption, rather than exports. So. Population. Is important, but. It doesn't mean that countries. With small populations can, have a very good stock market and a, good example of that is a place like Hong Kong or Singapore. You're talking about you. Know five or six million people but yet the stock markets are enormous because. They're drawing in. Investments. From all over the world and they are exporting. Their investments. To the past of the world so. Population. Is not the only thing but it's very important. You, have been to Russia many times what, is most memorable. Probably. The most memorable thing well. I have many very, great memories, but the most, memorable thing was that when. I. Was, a directive, look oil, I, wanted. To see some of the oil fields, in. Siberia. And it. Was summer. And. We flew, over one, of the oil. The oil towns small, town that. Was adjacent to the oil field and they. Had a beach. And. The people were on the, beach having. The Sun and swimming, this was Siberia, this, was very very amazing for me so, I. Learned, a lot for by visiting, these various. Places in Russia. You. Have been on the boards of directors of the largest Russian companies, and seen the dynamics, of their development, and corporate governance. Do. You see a positive trend in management, quality in terms of protecting the rights of investors, in Russia I see. Corporate. Governments around the world is not good I mean there are many many problems will there be a US company a Japanese. Company Chinese. Company, or Russian company so, there's not that much difference when, you go from one country to another the. Good news is that you have some really excellent, corporate. Governance in, Russian, companies a good. Example. Is look law where I was a director. But there are many many others in, Russia that have good corporate governance but a lot more has to be done. One. Of the big big issues, globally. Is the. One. Chair one vote issue, and, as. You know one. Of the largest companies, in the world Alibaba. Has, very. Bad corporate governance for that reason they have different share class so. That the founders, have a bigger, a power. Than. The other shelters, so. I would say, brushes. Not, any. Worse than other, parts of the world and, a, lot has to be done to improve it and that we think it's happening more.
And More investors. Around the world are demanding, better corporate governance. In. Your opinion what contribution, does the stock market bring to the country's economy I think it stock market is very very important, because. You must remember the first, reason. Why you have a stock market is, to raise capital. Because. Companies, need capital and they. Have to raise it either from banks or from. The, stock market equity, and equity. Is, very very better. Than, debt. Simply. Because equity, you don't have to pay back except. In earnings, whereas, with dead it can burden a company. A lot if you have big debt it, creates, a big drag big, problem with the company so, I would say that's the first order of business for a stock market to raise capital, the. Second business is to, gauge. The performance of, companies because. The stock price is really. A measure. Of performance, of, a company if, a company is doing well and people, are confident, then, the stock price will go up so it's. Very, important, to measure what, you're doing you know just just, not. Doing. A measurement is not, very good it's important, to get a measure and the stock market, price is, a good measure. You, know stable there but, it's thermal era in, the 90s imagining, the future of Russia and the Russian stock market. How. Much does this view match the current reality well. That time my expectations, were very very good and for, a while our, expectation. Was realized but. Then as, you know the stock market, Russia fell behind other, countries in, many, ways and so, we hope that this can be changed going forward we hope that policies. Of the Russian. Government can be made to. Really. Increase, shareholding. And encourage, more. Stocks to be listed. Has. Russia been a good investment for you yes. If you look at the history of our involvement, in Russia who has been quite. Successful we, made good. Increased. Profits, in, Russia. Gentlemen. In yeah in. Your opinion what will the Russian market face in ten years. And. In 50 years if we can look that far, well, I hope that. The. There's growth in, Russia and the reason why I think, there's. A possibility, of growth is that you have as I mentioned highly. Intelligent people in Russia and as.
The, World grows, into, more, technology. Russia. Will be very well-placed to, have. Companies, that, encompass. That technology. And can be listed on the stock exchange, so. The future is very great, than that sense. What. Was the biggest accomplishment. Of your career I think. The fact that I was able to get started in emerging markets the very beginning was, a big accomplishment and, we started. With a hundred million dollars and at. The peak we had seventy. Billion dollars so. That was. To me a great accomplishment that we were able to grow and we, started with only. Three people in. A small office in Hong Kong and, we, grew to having, 80, people scattered. Around the world in. 15. Different countries including. Russia. What. Experience, have you found the most valuable, on your professional path I think, the most valuable experience, was to have, faith in people. As. I was hiring analysts. Around, the world, I. Looked. Not only at their academic. Qualifications. And experience. But at them as, a personality, and their. Ability to cooperate. With other people so. We had you know people from, Brazil, Argentina. Mexico. Poland. Russia, we had Russian analyst. Singapore. Hong Kong India. So. Many countries, and, they, all got along very well we would get together every six month and. Have. A vacation, for a week and talk about the business and it. Was really a, family, atmosphere. Which, was very very good. And. Even now that. I have left, Templeton, we still stay together we have a an alumni. Obvious. Alumni, which, is very nice I, mean. Internal, Thurman oppa sweetie come on do you, have always had, an international. Team. Our. Russian professional is different, it's. A very good question because there was a difference, the. Russian, colleagues. Were always ready to challenge, the. Prevailing. Sentiment, which. Was very valuable for us because very often we get excited about something and then, the Russian analyst. Would say now wait a minute maybe that's not a good point of view maybe we should look at this point of view so. It it it, forced, us to look at the different aspects. That, we would not have done otherwise. And. The other interesting thing is that among the. Russian analysts, we had there, was also strong disagreement. They, were ready to disagree with each other which. Again if, you are running an investment, company it's very important, to get different points of view and somebody. Willing to challenge the, the. Prevailing, sentiment, so. In that sense the Russians, lent. A great deal of value to the group. 25. Years ago you said, that the three most important, criteria, for a successful, investor, our, motivation. Hard, work and. Discipline, have. You changed your point of view in this part I. Would. Also add one more factor, and that is the optimism. The. World belongs to Optus optimists. You got to be optimistic. Otherwise. You will never invest and. The. Experience, shows that stock, markets, continue, to move up over the long term stock. Markets, go up and the. One of the reasons for is of course the. Value. Of money goes out you, know currencies, don't, stay the same and the, best way to protect yourself. Against. Inflation. And the loss of value of currency, is, to be in a company that's, adjusting, their prices, as they, go forward so. I think it's, very important to be optimistic.
What. Is the most difficult decision you. Had to make in your professional, career the, most difficult decisions, were when we had to sell. You. Know when we had to decide. That a company, was not going to accomplish what. We expected, that to accomplishment. And then, we had to sell even, at a loss you. Know selling at a loss is very, very. Difficult for investors, they don't like to lose money and you. Have to be really. Ready. To do that that's. Why discipline, is important. Exactly. Could. You pick out one book that is the most important, to you in terms of your professional. There's. So many books that have. Been closed to me but I would say. History. Books, are very important, for me for. Example the, history of, the French. Monarchy. Starting. With louis xiv, going. Through - the French Revolution and then, afterwards, with Napoleon that whole, history, is very very, edifying. And very useful. When, you're looking at markets, because you know they're, going to be absent, flows in history there'll be changes, that take place and, you have to be ready for those changes, does. History repeat itself yes. History. Repeats itself but. For, college authorities we're. Currently seeing a large number of technology, companies in the world that are growing very quickly and reaching, proportions, at which they go public. Machine. And in. A large number of these placements the companies have no profits, they're losing money but. Their market valuations, are extremely, high. We. Receive a great deal of interest from our clients, in this respect. Do. You think the market has fundamentally, changed or, will, return, to the point at which we carefully, assess company's, fundamentals, yeah. I'm very concerned, about this trend where. Companies. That have no earnings no. Cash flow, and yet they raise billions of dollars I'm very concerned about that and I, think that. Will not continue I think people will begin to realize that this. Is not a good way. To. Invest, but. You must remember that. Lots. Of money has been made in, investing. Those companies and people, think it will continue, but. As interest, rates rise. And. As the cost of money increases. Then. It will become more and more difficult, for these companies to raise the kind of money on the back of absolutely. No earnings so. I would, say that it's. Very important. That particularly at this time to be disciplined, and not, be tempted by. These companies, unless. You. See the growth in. Earnings going, forward into the future because, at the end of the day the stock market is a, futures. Mechanism. We're. Looking at the future company. Maybe losing money now but, if you think in the future we'll be making money then it's, probably a good time to invest but. I agree with you that the, the. Loss of. Reliance. On very. Solid evidence.
Of Earnings, is. Not. A good thing and probably will pass. Mark. Yes the bernoulli's, McGregor, no sir mark, if you could return to 1987. Would. You change anything on your professional path, that's. A good question I probably. Would not change much because. If. You consider the time from 1987. To, the. Peak when we were doing very well in 90s. We. Really didn't make that that. Many, mistakes. In other words things went very very well. Probably. I. Would. Have if I had to do it again I would have paid more attention to, what was happening in, the. Industry generally. Because. When, we saw in 1987. We. And one other company were the only ones with an, emerging, markets fund, then. As things, grew, hundreds. Of new emerging market funds started. And I, should have paid attention to, that and probably, could have, achieved, a bigger market share if you know what I mean you. Know I was too concentrated on what we were doing without looking at what the total. Situation the market was so, I think that's probably one thing I would do differently. In general. How. Would you characterize, Russia over the past 30 years in the context, of other emerging, markets. Well. I would say Russia is unique. It's. A very very unique country, and it's had a very unique history, an, incredible, history when you think about it and here. You have a situation where. The. Country is considered an emerging, market but actually, it's. Already emerged because you have a highly, intelligent population. You. Have incredible, resources you, have very high technology, so. I think, with the missing link for. Russia is, developing. A really market. Economy, so. That these, resources. These human resources, that technological, resources can, be realized can, be grown and, go. Global so to speak and I. Think some. Of the things that the Chinese have been doing is an example of what can be done when. You have these resources and you, can bring, them globally. Into, other countries so. I think there's. A great potential, in Russia in that sense. Well. Thank, you for a very interesting interview thank. You thank you, thank. You very much.