International Landscape of Safety | CEO Safety on Tap Andrew Barrett | Talking Business Episode 14
You're a professional you're, doing professional, development you're, looking for answers you're looking for content, you want to know more about the international, landscape. For. Safety, I'm talking to my good mate today andrew, barrett from the safety on tap podcast, and his coaching, in consulting, company for Desa we're, talking all things safety. And safety leadership safety, development, safety coat coaching, and you're. Why stay, tuned. We, were talking about um, this. Work these. Guys work and, we're talking about like working. For. Safety, well I mean my words it'd be like working for safety sake versus, working, for an outcome yeah you, take the stomach away you, take that away you take some of those things we do away and it doesn't actually change yeah. What's going on and it's a question of going what. What's the purpose so like there's always an outcome I mean most of the work that we do has an outcome it's. Just a case of actually going what what is that outcome so what we were talking about is you. Know we might say there's end of month reporting, for example that's a part of most management, systems and what most good companies ask for the, question is is what, purpose, does that serve so, people think that tracking. Whatever. Safety indicators you might track in the system actually helps safety. But, it's disconnected from actual safety outcomes because, that's the stuff that's happening on site, with the frontline people, who are actually doing the work and so. If you took away that reporting, with the safety on the frontline change probably not is it still important, or is it still relevant or is it is, there still an outcome yeah there is it's. Just we need to make sure that we're not kind of kidding ourselves about what the purpose of it is what the outcome is we're trying to achieve yeah, if you had taught me talk have, you heard me talk about the. Concept. Of good. Idea shelf no, but so you come up with all these great ideas we've got them all all the time. Well. See my office well it, should stay in my office and not come out into the business yeah I might have the good idea it might be the bright and shiny thing but. You have these good ideas let's leave them on the good ideas. Shelf and get on with business ok and like you, know some of these guys here you're like you get the text messages on a Friday night oh you know what we should do next week we should blah blah blah it's, like ok well some, of those things get the green light particularly. With people with autonomy, yeah and, off they go off on their tangent, but there's not we're not bringing it back to understanding, how that you know how that's gonna get them out there that's, all that specks of business but it's funny when, you think about and I think safety is different to a lot of different aspects of ease of business so you probably got a broader view then. Some of this research that's been done by Drew, Ryan and Dave private at Griffith University where, they, looked at they looked at those purposes, of the work that we do that we call safety work. And they. Actually said. It's. Fiery one of the problems that exists is the asymmetry between, the creation of new safety stuff and the removal of safety stuff so, if you think about an audit or an investigation. Or an inspection or a regulator intervention, or a board, meeting or anything like that there's, lots of triggers, for, where we want to feel like we're making progress and, so action comes because of that we want to show management they were doing something or we want to have a corrective action further whatever and so, then we create this safety work whatever, it is new procedure, change, something put more people through training, whatever and so it feels like we're making progress more, safety work leads to more safety that.
Assumption Is probably, the biggest flawed assumption, and so, we very much find, that we add and add and add and add and then we have these behemot, systems, and you and I have seen many of them and probably contributed. To many of them and then. We but but then you gotta ask yourself the question when, do we take away, absolutely. And it's very hot most people don't ever actually go oh we've, got a taking away process, this, game talked about your ideation, process and, going well there's gates, and filters and decision-making, kind of criteria whether. That's formal, or informal doesn't, matter but, what about the opposite most businesses especially for safety don't do that and you know why so. Scary it's, scary it's, like if you take something away from safety, you're not committed to safety or if. It goes wrong then. They're, going to say you took something away and, that might have actually had something to do with it so we're scared yeah and we end up with form Friday mmm, form, front you guys heard of forum Friday its forum Friday so it's like today's for Friday that's, what happens so, if your business got a cog for a forum Friday you need a taking you a process yeah yeah but, almost no one has that and I think that in that in the context, of management, systems I mean this this I gave this work was done specifically safety but I think that there's some broader, learnings that come out of that and this is very consistent with the work that you guys do which is saying that systems aren't about the paperwork it's about the paperwork enabling. The, process and the outcome and the, taking away bit has to be part of that that's part of your continuous, improvement, loop absolutely. Yeah but, I've almost never seen it you. Don't see it you know that's why we we you know we wrote that book, 5 what, was it five ways to minimize documents, as. A downloadable, checklist. Because it just doesn't exist yeah it just it just doesn't exist he's, really good we're like really good case study we've been using here at best practice pre. Start meeting. Everyone's. Going it maybe. It's not getting the outcome but we're doing because everybody does it or we're not but we've, moved that into a private secret Facebook group so. We don't have to stop the whole business to have that meeting we, do a live post if people are available, we notify them there's going to be a live post in the business run. The live meeting if people are not available client, meeting family issue day off whatever it might be they. Can then check back in to, the. To Facebook essentially, because they're following the group don't have to be friends on Facebook yeah notification.
They'll Get a notification the. Group was live all that sort of stuff yeah what. Facebook, gives us is a scene by, now. The people that ordered us are now acknowledging that as an attendance, register. There's. All the arguments about, well what, if the person didn't actually follow the post or read the post well that's no different to if the person fell asleep. In the pre-start made it yeah but, what Lee computer-literate. Supervisor, at the contractor, does all the inductions, for all the other workers. Absolutely. So for us we've we've. Got a small, step in the right direction yeah, let's, just we, can have the conversation later, about whether you use Facebook or don't use Facebook or your Facebook user but we've got people in this company who, were not Facebook users, yeah we, issue them with an iPhone, we, issue them with the Facebook app on that iPhone and we issue them with a profile, the, only thing in their Facebook account is the company, group so. For them it's, just a button like it's okay it's Facebook, but for them it's just a button on a phone yeah like you can't find them you can't discover them on Facebook they can't get friend requests none of that sort of stuff because they for, their personal privacy no photos of them it's just literally just their name and a poop emoji yeah, and that's it yeah you know and and, and so then they see that stuff so, we've taken away and there's other ways to do it or we've taken away you. Know that bit, of paper that you then what do I do with the pre-start yeah look I've got evidence now that everybody was at that meeting or or receive that communication, away call it's like a read receipt so. It's it's it is interesting but then if you dig down in our management system you'll find the, attendance, register is still there yes. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's important, one of the things that I kind of really like about this. This work that's been done is that like. None of this is new so we're having a conversation about it and we're both going here we've got some stories, right and I think that everyone listening or watching will. Actually be able to identify their own examples, too of where there's this this clutter that exists, in your systems the, difference is is that if, you've actually got a way to think about it and understand where it comes from then it actually helps you work out how, you can avoid, it in the first place and then how you can work on it so, that idea of so, that example that use it with the priest arts that's, a really classic example, of where. That started, in one place and then we've just gone oh that looks like a good idea over in that industry or that company or whatever and so, that's, duplication. By, industry. And so, we're going to duplicate, it or we can generalize, it so we might actually say well we'll do a tool box talk and I've seen toolbox talks that have been done in administrative, kind of businesses. In white collar kind of context and so, what we're doing is we're generalizing from one context to an entirely different context, and we think that that's still good safety yeah and yet we don't actually ask ourselves a question well why did it exist over there does it work over there and then why are we bringing it over here what's, new and what's, going on with the podcast what's, happening there webcast what's the most exciting insight, you've got out of the podcast in the last couple of months.
That's. A really good question. Whose, most interesting, person has until, recently you. Know what let's, actually have a look oh he's my phone, let's. Actually go through it yeah and I'll give you some and I'll give you some insights yeah that's right it's, interesting someone asked me the other day they said they. Talked about a particular episode remember he's beating his hip said you were talking to so-and-so and I'm like no I can't I can't, and you be like that - well. We create a lot of content and, the question is is where it lands with other people. And. It doesn't always it's, not always stuff that is on the forefront of your mind all the time so. Here it is we're in the back of the safety on tap podcast no we're just in iTunes. We'll. Tell them we're in the dashboard so go. To podcasts. Find, your podcast, provider if it's if it's iTunes or otherwise and and. Look for podcasts and look for safety, on, Podcast, so I'm gonna give you I'll give you a couple of key highlights so, one of the things that I've been doing recently is some more solo episodes, yeah so you know learning by doing sort, of sets what, I've been trying to do is to say is, to do my own reflections, and then to share that as well so, what I'm tapping into is my own experience of learning and then the social learning comes through people being able to listen to the podcast, so. One, that I did last week it's, called time and space and, it's funny here, that happened over a couple of things that I was doing with some clients around facilitation. And some change processes, and some coaching, and whatnot and it's amazing, here people. Kind of one of the biggest challenges they face in solving, problems in consulting. With their workforce, in engagement. In culture, in leadership is around people, getting together and being able to meaningfully connect communicate. Connect, whatever, you want to call that but but there's a getting together sense, there's a connectedness, and and. I and I kind of was just sitting there going I've got some amazing, outcomes and seen some amazing outcomes with people recently and the common denominator in there was. The fact that we had created in different contexts, the time and space for something to happen so. Whether it's a senior manager he gets a whole group of people together, from. His organization or her organization, in order to try and work out a new kind of safety initiative or whatever we. Don't need to be so concerned about what the process is gonna or what the outcomes going to look like because you've got to be able to create a time and space and believe in the time and space to. Allow that outcome to emerge and that's, true engagement that's true human centered design thinking. That. Also works in the context of coaching you know me. Coming all the way out here I'm not from Sydney so I come and come and all the, way out here to spend, time with you me. Creating time and space in my life to. Learn to grow to share, to be challenged, to challenge each other to create you know good content like this that's, all about time and space as. Much as this is an amazing, production we don't spend a whole lot of time. So. Time. And space is one of those things. Human. Centered design and Sarah pizzelle a human. Factor specialist, was talking about human centered design and that's, pretty phenomenal I think that idea of actually going, we. Think in safety, that it's all about looking after people and yet most of the way we behave is that we push the people to the the people were trying to help and. We then just play along with you whatever it is that we're working on and, then the people are looking on the sidelines of what we're doing I took. A really good article adapted really good article that I wrote for the. Safe cat magazine in New Zealand and, it was called from Teflon, to coach and that was one of my early experiences, as a as. A safety person in a company that you've, worked with before which is when we actually mesh. And. And. It was that idea that, that. At one stage this senior manager who was this I was the business partner for said. Tim my boss you know this guy's just Teflon, you know yeah and, and that was it and so that, person so the rest of it don't stick yeah. And. So it was a really interesting reflection, on me going well that's, that's totally wrong I'm doing this about enablement, empowerment, and front lawn leadership and all this sort of stuff and, yet the point was is that there was a disconnect between what she expect than what I expected and, so, it was a bit closer as a story about closing that gap and it was a bit, movement.
On My part and moving on her part as well and, so that was an interesting journey as well so a couple of interesting things, on I've. Got some interesting guests lined up to you coming up as well what's your thoughts on I mean I've I've got my own observations, between, Australian. And the u.s. in terms of sometimes, I feel or. Different, markets and I'm not going to say straight versus a US but sometimes I'll go somewhere, in I feel like we, dealt with that 10 years ago yeah oh wow. That's really interesting we're not doing that what. Are your what is what's been your experience, as you start to embark on this sort of global journey as you know, as seeing differences, in similarities, yeah so I think, I'll. Draw a big contrast, so there's obviously contrast, between first, world countries as, a loose concept and then second or third world countries so, I think then in that sense often the problems, like clutter for example so we're talking about management systems clutter that's, real first world problem absolutely, because. We've, got you, know people go into working, on bamboo, scaffolding, in bare feet in you know countries, and you, know a really, good friend of mine and mentor of mine talked about how in, the global business he was part of one of their biggest challenges in one of the countries that they were working in was, just getting people to wear seat belts in cars especially, cabs. Because. That was people, were getting killed all that, so. It kind of so in that sense I think that's important to make sure that we have a bit of an understanding of our context, that it is all relative, in terms of other differences. So, if we talk about places, like the US Australia and, even, say the UK a lot of people would say that. The, UK is kind of leading the way but, one of the greatest challenges and they've they've had public inquiries, into this is. Around that over bureaucratize, ation whether it's swung too far and. So, I think there's lessons we can learn from that one of the things that I was kind, of probably, most interested, in and was, hoping to influence and. I quite haven't haven't quite cracked they're not yet he's having a look at the experience, when Australia. Introduces. Harmonized legislation, in safety and then New Zealand US and you, kind of go between 2011, what was before that in Australia and then, in the last few years when New Zealand has how, could they avoid, some of the mistakes that we're making some of the lessons we can learn and, our data there's any learning whatsoever I think, that they're going through the whole same process, of fear. Due diligence driving, fear, executives. Getting confused, to be at their executive, function, or not especially and non executive function, versus management, function, all, of those same things are happening in New Zealand that's at least the feedback that I'm getting from people over there in. Terms, of countries, like the US we've got a contrast, where Australia, has performance, based or gold based legislation, so it says keep people safe and you've got to figure out how you're gonna do that and in, the u.s. it's far more prescriptive, and so again it's interesting where there's no one, right way to do it but. But, what it means is is that it's, far easier to be black-and-white, about what your plan looks like and what you've got to work on and we've got compliance, we compliance based in the US in, Australia, it's far harder in performance-based countries, like Canada and the UK it's far harder so we kind of stumbled our way around it a little bit I think do you think I'm just listening between, the words there do you think that maybe in, the desire to have this performance-based, legislation.
And, And. You conclude it you can criticize the, people. Foot riding the white papers in that way that. They've potentially, created this over-ear kradic process, because. They've said go figure it out and we're not quite sure so we write too much as a result absolutely. So, I think I think there's, nobody Trump is a good thing well. I'm not gonna go there but, there's no one right way to do it and I think the point is is that what can we actually learn about it so despite, the fact that we talk about performance-based, legislation, in Australia there's plenty of things that are still prescriptive, so, confined. Spaces is a really good one hazardous, substances, is a really good one GHS, and that sort of stuff so there, are still a lot of specific things we can do they, still call up a strain standards and strain standards, relatively, prescriptive, so in, that sense it's not title and we're not totally in the dark I think the question comes down to you. Know what's reasonably, practicable, and and the sad thing is is that it only ever gets tested when something really drastically goes wrong and the, guy or gal in the week sitting in the big chair in the courtroom is the one that makes the call and so, I think what it means is that we don't have enough conversations, about what that means in practice in, our business and so, we become really conservative, or. We, just go. By. The seat of our pants we're not really sure and there are businesses that I've worked with where there's no conversation, whatsoever about what's reasonably practicable, and yet that's the only thing that matters in, terms of really complying with that legislation. The. Regulators, are struggling though because, a lot of the regulators don't know how to enforce. Performance-based. Legislation. Apart, from prosecution, so, an inspector, will go out an inspector. In the in the process of efficiency, because remember they've got a system a system they're working to in. The process of assurance and efficiency, they're actually going to go what can I see that looks like safety and what they're looking for is, safety work and they're. Not often looking for the safety of work classic. Example, company that was speaking to not long ago engineering. Firm they. Do lots of machining, of big heavy metal, parts dyes and things like that and. And, so they had been that invested, a lot of money in a really good gantry, crane system to make sure that they could move, these things around to minimize manual handling risk inspector. Walks in and, says. Where's, all your staff where's, your records, that their riggers that they're qualified riggins, because, they're operating a crane and so.
They Had taken the prescriptive, requirements for, a crane, totally. Out of context, and said, we want to see that your riggers and actually what I'm going to do is I'm going to put a prohibition, notice on you so you can't use your cranes and so. They. This, business and there weren't a huge business there they're kind of shrug Enosh we thought we were doing the right thing here performance, based the. Regulator, comes in and they did what they thought was, probably the right thing to do. But. I don't know it's up to everyone else I suppose to make the call on whether they think on balance that was actually the best outcome that's, an example I think of where the regulator's are struggling, but. I've got him I've. Got, a good relationship with Martin Campbell who's the new director at Safe Work ESI, and he's, he's, an example of an, executive in the regulators who's really actually trying to make a difference I think I'm trying to change well. He's in our CAC at the moment for all of the stuff he's inherited, but. But. I think it's, intermittent. About that and so I think that that's that's, really strong leadership about them saying you know what maybe maybe we've got to change the way we operate so so, talk more in terms of making that change and you know doing what we can do in this forum to talk about that let's. Talk more just for a minute about so. That people can understand there's a really key point that was was there a couple of seconds ago about. Safety. Work and, working. Safely look just just talk, through those two definitions for us so. Safety, of work is kind of what, goes on for. The people doing the work that's frontline, operational. Safety if you like and then, that's, the safety of work and then, safety work is all the other stuff that you might read on a job description that, you might look at in a management system that. You would see in an order tour then a regulator, would look for so that's all of the audits, and assessments and, inspections, and you, know training and all that all that all the stuff that we do yeah, and so, that's, kind of the distinction now those things all serve a purpose they. All exist they've been created, for some reason, it's just a question of us, being clear on whether those things actually do relate, to or contribute, to the safety of work or not, and, in some instances. There. When, we create safety work we actually increase. Risk we, actually reduce, the safety of frontline work so. An example of that is the. Amount of. Inductions. For example that people have got to go through will, often compress the amount of time they've actually got to do a job that. Creates. Risk and it, construction, sites are good examples of that where. You've got principal contractors, and sometimes clients and multiple stakeholders multiple. Inductions, online. Inductions, and in on-site inductions, and all that sort of stuff so, that's a simple kind of example I'm not saying that happens all the time but, sometimes that's the trade off and that's the unintended trade off and so I think that's being conscious, about what. Is this what, is that what is this that's in front of us is it safety work or is it the safety of work and then, what are we doing to contribute to those I think it's the important question to ask mm-hmm so. In terms of asking those questions if we go you know one step forward to more about what we're pushing here at best practice, and. If. We talk about culture, and, this is the culture of safety leaders, and the culture of leaders, in general and then the culture of the people out in the field yeah what. Are your thoughts around you. Know if we had you. Know there's an argument that if we had great culture and we had great behaviors we wouldn't need all this stuff in the first place. Where's. That uh in industry at the media so, I think one. Of the interesting things that's that, this research has tapped into is this idea that. Culture. Is kind of a nebulous concept in, you know what's a way so a lot of people talk about it not a lot of people really understand it and I'm in that category of I, don't know that I understand it enough in order to actually make. A true, difference in it you. Know way that I think you can actually connect your, your effort and the outcome so. A lot of the organizational, research has actually moved on from culture and they're looking at this concept of institutional. Logics and I'm not going to pretend to know the. Ins and outs of that but, the basic idea is is that we, apply a logic, for certain things and some, of those logics, are shared within our organization. So, within workgroups within teams within whole organizations. So, if, we become as professionals.
And Systems professionals, or safety professionals, under. Standards, of logic interpreters, of logic if we understand, the rationale, behind why people are doing things and why we're doing things then, it enables us to change the way we work so. An example of that might be you, know it's logical, that we have a system that generates non-conformance. --is that generates actions, that create safety clutter that's, logical, so. If we understand, that and we kind of get a common understanding of that then, we can start to challenge the logic and we can go okay right what does connected with an outcome and so, I think that from my point of view if we start to understand, more about logics, which, is the rationale, for the way people work I find, that far more practical. I think, is. The right word practical, for, us to kind of wrap our hands around it and understand. It and then do something about it and I think that that's that goes to all different aspects, of safety. In particular so if you look at things like culture. And leadership and human. Error and investigations. And things going wrong or whatever I was doing some work with a quite a client recently where they. Were looking at motor vehicle risk and and. We went through that process of, looking, at incidents and they were really keen to understand, what were some what causes an error individual. Decision-making. Self-awareness. You know all that sort of stuff came up and then and then I asked everyone in the room whether they've ever gotten in their car and then arrived at their destination and not really knowing what's happened in between. Everyone. Puts their hand up right and so I said so, it's interesting when we think about the logic that goes into us making sense of our investigations. Because. The very thing that makes us successful in that driving process where we got there okay is the very thing when, we're on automatic pilot that, can contribute to things going wrong and but, our logic, says I will, someone made a decision in that someone was conscious, about that and, so just goes to show that we don't quite understand, what's going on up here so.
When We break it down in there trying to understand the, logics, that's behind things which aren't always conscious, I think. That makes it far more tangible, for us to take action on. Absolutely. A hundred percent like it it, is and. You can you. Know I can think about times in my career you know certainly, that scenario and then. You can say well what sets you up what. Sets you up for a successful outcome or a non successful, outcome is it conscious on you know subconscious, unconscious whatever, it might be so conscious. Calm you know what's that matrix you know you got unconsciously. Incompetent and, then you got consciously. Incompetent and. Then what, is it consciously. Incompetent and, then unconscious, competence something like that so. You, know I said I think there's all that and that's a whole nother you, know that's a whole nother conversation so. Tell, me something we've. Got managers. Watching, this we've got leaders watching this so we've got you know individuals. Starting to embark on their career. With. Once we sort of summarize, all that and you're, someone who's looking after a management system you're, someone who is you, know working, to try and you know take this and you know you're really really you know inspired by what you hear on the podcast or you're inspired by what you read and you want. To start. To execute and implement, what. Are your what's. Your, three. How to's or your five how to is in terms of someone. You know when we first met what would you do differently, because you when we first met you know we were both a lot, younger than we are today and, you. Know we were finding our way, what. Guidance would you give someone who's you, know starting, out to starting, starting, their journey of influence, yeah there's, only really one which. Is get. Out there and seek to understand, first that's. It yeah so, and I've had this question recently with people you know I'm starting a job where I'm transitioning, into a new safety role someone I've been talking to about that what. Should I do, and. I said should I read codes of practice you, know should I go and do some training you, know. Hey. That's right and. I said no no no go it go out there and understand, what's going on and I, mean that's in the context, of understand what's going on in your work understand, the people who you serve understand, your business your industry whatever it is but. Don't go out there and start, to start. To tinker look don't. Get like hands off, two. Years. Yeah. One knows with two nostrils is. My mouth so. Smell is look, eyes yeah, absolutely, so that that's really it for me I, think if we were going to boil it down so, you're, gonna understand, the logics, that are apply you're. Gonna understand. A baseline, around, people's, views on safety, or the views on your management systems you're, gonna understand, the things that are important, to different people you're gonna understand, what drives them in their work you're gonna understand, the pain points you're gonna understand, why they wake up and go to work every day you know I was, doing some work recently with.
A Crew, you. Know, an. Electrical. Distributor and. There was there was a work experience keep the part of the crew and I, and so part of what I was doing was kind of observing, and, and understanding, what, was going on in reality so not the imaginary, work of systems and procedures but reality and I, said to this work and work these frensky tonight and I haven't signal working for his kid for a decade. And. I was really curious and I said why, why, are you here. And. He said my. Dad works, you know for this other mob he stands. Up power poles and, he goes he comes home from work and he all stand up seven. Or eight or nine power poles in a day and he. Just had this sense of awe about telling, me that that was it that was it that's, why I wanted to do working experience to do the work like his dad, so he's big why right, and, I only learned that because I was curious cuz I asked, I could, have just ignored the work experience keep, thinking what am I gonna learn from him you, know so, that sense of that, sense of want to go to work every day and create something amazing so so, to your point it's, about coming out there and just seeking to understand, first so, hands off don't, feel the pressure to, go and start to meddle or change things to put your stamp on things or whatever that's, my best advice that's, awesome and and. I think I've my. Exactly. The same advice exactly, the same point is. Find. Out the problem, let's, find out the problem it's don't his solution solution, solution I think that's what you know that's my interpretation what, you're saying about tinkering, is what. Is the problem, first, seek to understand, that the problem that you're solving and, too much of this bureaucracy and too much of all the other stuff that we're complaining that we've got now comes from solving. Somewhat, a different. Problem that's not well understood absolutely and. So that's an example I mean the whole thing that, we got talking about yeah. With the safety clutter that, conversation. Flied from, Kobe and I'm making you and I making. Trying. To create sense of some, of the work that I was doing with Dave proven and these master classes, and the research that was done around professional identity, and I said to you this. Piece around our, professional, identity which, we're doing master classes on is great and understanding, where we've come from and where we are now where we might be able to go that's excellent, but. That's probably not the biggest problem right now for. Safety people out there in particular but, this issue of clutter is. So. The conversations, that's the shift and so I'm getting more focused on understanding what that problem is and then, how at, least in my context, we can help to sort, that out I think. The question is like. We. Can't solve the problem with regulators, creating, legislation because. That's just too hard no no. I mean we can vote with our feet and you can do all that sort of stuff and you can you know companies can choose where they want to operate from like, that's the reality right the company's going to go it's too hard to operate in this climate we're going to move to this climate particularly now of the internet we're gonna move the whole, production to, or we're gonna start it in this place yeah, or the. Ones in the more. Easy to operate, jurisdictions. Are going to be the ones that survive but someone was telling me that we're. In, and I can't remember who it was so I don't need to worry about too. Much about it but they, operated, ports around the world well they were working in ports around the world and, all, the ports are different because they've got either really really strict requirements. Like if you were to land in a port here in Sydney or, it's a Timberwolf that you're trying not to like.
Bowl Over with your big massive ship you know and and you're starting to worry you're actually worrying you're, getting to a particular port with a ship for example and maybe it's a shipping, company with Freight you're, actually, worried, whether when. You put your stuff down on that Wharf whether, whether. It'll hold it so it's there's, the regulations, here where we're, operating in the regulatory, environment is, so. Tightly controlled, that. I would, almost argue that you've got more assumptions, because, if you were to land a ship here in docker ship here in Sydney you, just assume that because. There's so many regulations that your ships, like. They wouldn't let you in basically, if they didn't think that their ship was able to handle your ship for example and your stock and all that sort of stuff versus. You go to an environment, so there's, this concept, that an unregulated environment. While higher. Risk could. Potentially get people thinking more, yeah, because it's not prescriptive in they're saying well you figure out whether you when you put your stuff down on our Wharf whether it's going to break or not yeah no I totally agree and I think that that idea of adding adding more safety actually, does take away from the, dynamic, assessment of risk that's, kind of what you're saying yeah whether that's a sheep or whether that's individual, decision making or whatever I totally agree I mean we had. Again. A client I was working with recently where they had some, vehicle monitoring stuff that was going on and they considered that to be a hazard because it created more distraction, with things, beeping, and flashing and, a lot stuff then letting them focus on the road now, whether that's right or wrong I think that that kind, of points to that idea of going sometimes, more safety actually takes away from safety of decision-making. And individual risk assessment, so, I think that idea if. You have a look at kind of what what, it go back to risk what, are the critical things that are going to go wrong and if you can actually apply those things from the higher standard, context, if you like the first world countries then, I think that having that consistency, across the board is actually a good thing so there's a balance with making.
Sure That the safety work that you're doing is. Actually. Generalized. In a way that's logical, so, that people tend don't need to go okay at each different port I've got a different kind of radio call and a different way of coming in a different form of piloting, and you know all that sort of stuff so, I think that there's there's an element of making sure that you make the job easier for the frontline people to do, but. At the same time I think that you. You need to make sure that you're not applying just the strictest, standard, across. The board and. That especially applies, when, you're using work forces from, those other countries and, supervisors. In particular from those other countries because. You're, just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and so what you'll find is that there's non-compliance. And we'll drive control, down, the line and we'll try and force these people to do that and, it just work like that and so you're going you'll go into a loop, of vicious loop that, again you, find that that's going on over here well, these poor buggers are trying to get the job done and going looking, from the outside going you. Guys are just full of it because we've struggling with real problems on the ground here so. Does. That make sense so. I think so I think in that sense I mean when we talk about compliance, and again going back to those the goal based legislation. Versus the prescriptive context, so if you compare Australia and in the u.s. in that example a, lot. Of the compliance that we complain about in Australia, is, self-created. It's self-imposed, so, whilst we might go oh we've got all these obligations that we need to comply with most, of it is in two or industry-related, at least as opposed. To actually, specifically, required, and so. It. Comes back to why like that's what I keep saying I'm banging on about this every single day why, are we doing this yeah and, it'll be internally, creative so yeah put it in the bin go. Back to your actual, and. I'll deal, it like, negotiating. A contract this morning talking, about specifically. Specifically. That thing in a contract clause which is what are you legal and other requires what are your interested parties asking for as actually, not as much as you think yeah yeah. Absolutely and so I think if we ask that question of going well where did these requirements actually come from if they're perceived requirements, then, engaging, in so the gap between we, have to do it in this country and then, the standards are down here and there's a gap between the two if, you're asking why it becomes a more conscious process, you're probably going to get a better outcome because, you go these are the couple of critical things that we need to focus on and then, the rest we can actually leave behind or at least maybe allow some discretion, for so you've been doing some really interesting events, lately so. Talk to us about some of those you. Know what's happening there in this you're, becoming the you're, becoming the the country's most favorite emcee, wait, see this thing ends Baker. It's. Interesting I realized. In serving, my mission my big why around helping people with professional, development, there's.
A There's, this kind of this paradox or core conflict that exists for me which, is that I'm trying to say to people do, less point-in-time. Professional. Development, we've talked about that before on talking, business and yet, what I'm doing is that I'm going to meet people at those point in time events, because that's where people are going and. So that's important that's me thinking that understand the people who I'm trying to help and. And, sometimes, I am, I, cause. A bit of discomfort at those events around the format of the events in particular so. A couple of interesting things at, their safety Institute of Australia conference, in Melbourne which was a couple of months ago I did, a presentation called. 19. On health and safety things, to improve health and safety so, the idea was using innovation thinking to say if you're looking at a particular problem then just do the opposite so. If you're trying to solve. Health and safety in the way we operate then, just do the opposite do you know one health and safety stuff and, so one of those things was in. 40. Minutes I had 19 things to cover which is absolutely, impossible to do and, so I made sure that I actually said to people deliver. What you're gonna promise deliver. What you promised but, it doesn't have to be literally, all in one go so don't turn the fire hose onto people. One, of them was I, delivered. I talked about five principles, of, non health and safety things people could do I gave, them the rest at the end and. Most. Of those things I had done in the presentation, that just hadn't come out of my mouth so it's about the way I was behaving not. Just so it's kind of like a ninja tactic if you like an, interesting li someone I'm working with at the moment it, came to me and they called me up and they said I need you to come and help me and my team to be more like ninjas so you, know yeah so that's been pretty cool. Going to the US for, the OHS leaders summit in. October which will be pretty cool, so that's him seeing that event Australian, debut of an event over in the US which, should be interesting because I think Australians, we've, got a lot to offer in the US market in that context, and that's an invite-only event. For, health and safety leaders just the senior health and safety leaders and the, best benefit out of that some people think that it's elitist I really, like it because it enables peers to meet with peers and so they kind of understand, each other they know the room they're going to use people who understand, their perspective and, I think that's got real value in, the in there in the community. Development. Context, whether that's that event or whether it's you getting together with their safety officers from other companies in your area you know whatever it is it's about knowing, that people who understand your perspective, that's. Really valuable and. And, the safe guard conference in New Zealand we, were talking recently I'll be speaking in 2019, at their conference and it's, on it's, on dare. To disrupt is likely to be their theme and I said so what are we going to do for you keynote presentation, and I said well I'm not doing a keynote presentation like. What do you mean and I said well if you want me to do to disrupt then, we're not going to do what, you've always done we're. Going to try something different inside, that for the New Zealand audience, that's gonna be a really interesting one well, where I'm pushing them and they're pushing me to go beyond, just the standard talking, head behind the lectern and kind of presentation, and. Again that's designed to be an experiment, in in in disrupting, and you, know it doesn't need to be it. Doesn't need to be the full-on over-the-top, you, know tech startup. Disruption, sometimes, it's just changing. A little bit of the way that you work just so what if you did it differently for 48, hours yeah yeah but solid it what if you did it what. If you did it exactly, the opposite way for 48 hours yeah. And it's funny because they said to me though they were really in Phatak about making sure that I understood, that, their intent, around the topic was dare to disrupt, so when it understand, that there's the bit about my decision, and then, there's the what I'm going to do so the daring is one bit the way I think and then there's it's kinda like the two creations Stephen Covey's stuff and I, said to them why did a podcast, a reflection, in the last couple of weeks which is called permission, and the basic concept there is that you don't need permission you. Do not need permission to. Go and talk to that same, person to go and try something different to, remove something from your system to.
To. Reach, out to someone in your network who you'd love to talk to whatever. It is you do not need permission that's, often the thing that holds most people back is feeling like they need a reason, or an excuse, or or or or. Someone to say yes you can go and do that and the thought process is important though because like you said it's, not like you go out and you go we're gonna spend a million bucks on something that's, not the kind of thing that you go out and do straightaway but, you might say well what's up wireframe, what's a rapid prototype, that we can draw on the back of a napkin and, we've got a test tomorrow whatever that looks like, you. Can do that that's. The bit we don't need permission for, yeah and then you get feedback and the whole process builds on itself but, it all starts with not needing permission absolutely. Yeah and. Piece. Of advice go first, seek to understand, first. Week to understand, then you don't need permission yeah I saw that cuz you understand like you've you figured it out yourself so, let's. Talk for a moment about this. Point. In time professional, development like, we. Do it you know we're advocating, it you're advocating it we're trying to get away from it but it's still there yeah why. Do you think it's still there. Like, you know we've got these self-service, systems, you got you know you. Know this sort of stuff you can watch it you you know people are gonna see this in years you know years from today yeah, why. Do you think point in time professional, development still there I think I think there's a couple of reasons one is that the, education, system that most, of us have grown up in teaches. Us that which. Is you go to a place and there, is a person there called a teacher and that, teacher is the person who enables, information. Transfer to occur and you'll, sit down and shut up and you'll sit in rows and you say good morning mr., so-and-so them, morning mr. and so that's, for permission to go to the toilet all that sort of stuff that's, the education system, that most of us have grown up in so. That I think that just leads into ask. Your boss for money to go to the conference and we'll go to the conference and that's a once here thing and you feel like it's an absolute. You. You just have so much gratitude for, this this development, that you've got and when, I ask people about professional, development it's, like that's what they describe they describe the thing that fits in a box where they get the lanyard or the piece of paper or whatever I think. That that's so our, education system has is one thing to do with it I think the other is is that it's, it's easier, to, do that than it is to do that, the more, rewarding, professional, development. So. The. People that I talk to if you go to conferences the. Most important question for me is, what. Do, you what, changes. Based, on what you've learned that's, new or has, challenged, you after, you go to a conference and who. Asks that question and. Almost no one has any answers to that so the boss doesn't ask what was my ROI on spending that money at the conference or. Even people who put money in their own pocket for conferences, which are getting more and more expensive, they. Don't they can't tell you 12 months down the track what they got out of it that's, not a good return on investment but for me whereas. If you look at like the stuff that I advocated, coaching, for example, I can, show a return based, on every single coaching, interaction, that I have with someone which, is incremental.
Meaningful, Progress towards, clear goals, so. We start our coaching, started, has to have a goal it has to have an endpoint you're working towards or a problem, you're trying to overcome your. Current coach without that and so, I think it's about the model I think that that's part of it too that it's harder to do that but. But. It's more rewarding takes, a lot of discipline, to, do. You. Know self, by. Self-paced, learning look I've, done a lot of it and I. Can, honestly say that it, is by far I'm getting a far greater return, I'm. Not gonna say it was easier or, harder lot. Harder to do that you know before you walked into my office you, know before we started recording you. Know I was looking at some more self-paced. You, know professional. Development learning that I paid. For I've organized that it's done I just need to sit down and physically, get through it yeah and, it takes a lot of discipline, to carve, out that time invest, that time carve, out the time whatever you know dedicate, the time if you like to, doing that and I think you, know if you if you say look at tertiary studies for example University, there's, a whole bunch of assignments, but they've got a deadline, and a due date so, maybe. We're making in a mistake has online. Trainers. And facilitators, and coaches that we're not actually providing, deadlines yeah and maybe, it's the dead you know the, the I, think we all agree on the problem the problem is, development. More efficiently yeah so skills the knowledge and experience, that's fast-tracked and accelerated, I think, we both, agree that the, better way to do that is self-paced, and on online, for example self-paced. With whatever. Interactions. Might, come with that you know in terms of how much physical one-on-one, help people need one-on-one. Or one or many but. Maybe we're making the mistake that part, of the influence, needs to be the scarcity, and the scarcity of time, so, with a university, assignment. For example scarcity. Of time is you've got 10 weeks to do this here's, your assignment day one of the semester end of the semester there's, your deadline and if you don't do that you don't get the marking so it, does Drive a bit of fear, of missing out yeah if I'm oh yeah but, I also wonder with. You, know with, maybe, these. Events have the wrong label and this is me challenging, the marketplace I'm, gonna argue that there for entertainment nature. That. Someone's. Going there to be entertained it's it's under, the professional, development, but, you know the most recent conference I went to I can't say, honestly. That any of the presentations, at that conference they. Gave me an. Insight but I sat you know they gave me insight into stuff and maybe a bit of a prompt. To look at things but I spent most of those presentations. Googling, what the person was talking about yeah and so, it put me in a room in an environment, but I was still doing my own professional development by. Verifying, and validating what, that person was saying or researching them or their background or whatever that might be yeah. So. Maybe that's something to consider for you guys out there who are it's. I guess what we're challenging, you you're. You're. Expecting. That. Your professional, development, is. You. Know it's. Time-stamped, it's basically you, know you're going to a specific place at a specific time, to do specific, professional development or you're thinking like that but, our experience, like you know I say this with a lot, of authority our experiences, that our observations. Of people, improving. More. Rapidly more effectively, more efficiently and, certainly, cheaper if money is the issue is to is to be doing that self placed learning yeah I agree, and that's some so, the concept that comes out of one of the concepts that comes out of I tease around a sprint development, and so, the idea is is that instead of going through a long drawn-out, development, process you, create a time constraint for. The people involved and they've got to deliver a result within that time constraint, and so that's one of the things that I've actually got in the pipeline at the moment is having a look at how we can create, a little bit of a squeeze. In the process in order to actually drive it and and I, experienced, that contrast with the two types of coaching that I do so we do online, asynchronous text-based. Self-paced. Coaching.
Online. Asynchronous. Text-based. And self-paced. This, sell and I said this to someone the other day when they were asking me about the two options to evaluate them and I said progress, is slower in the self-paced context, whereas if. We do real-time, one-on-one. Face-to-face coaching. Then, we have markers. We have points, at which we know we've got a rock up and we, don't want to not, have done, the homework or made progress and so. But, inevitably, again it's just about understanding the. Mechanism. Of what's working and there are trade-offs there are benefits of both of those things, but. Absolutely, I agree that if you're going to do any professional, development you've got to be asking yourself about how, much return are you're going to get out of that and how can you change that so doing, that in the social context, this, is some of the ideas that I've got around group coaching and. Some of these sprint concepts, too and. I've, got to be prepared to fail on putting those out into the market and seeing, if we get any feedback from it we'll, learn something either way as. Kind, of like a middle, place if you like to your point create, a bit of time constraint. Do. It socially, make. Sure you're getting an outcome, but. And, it's not all knowledge it's not all knowledge based it's about action, so. If someone's feeling if you out there in the market you're feeling really really overwhelmed. If feeling like there's so much professional, development, there's so much online you, know there's you know we're talking about coaching, in work, health and safety in your space we're talking about coaching, in best practice development systems, here at best practice if, someone's feeling, really really overwhelmed, what should I do where should I go you know what should I look at, you. Know I really don't know what I want to do like I'm gonna figure out what I wanted to do in my career later on you're thinking all of those sorts of things, what. What's your guidance. For someone who's just you know whether their health and safety professional, whether they're any sort of professional watching this they could be anything, so, actually, get. Down some to some nuts and bolts in sort of you, know what, sort of professional development should I do like so maybe, it's like to cook how. How what, might be some like a decision making flow that they can go through yeah so I've, got a model. That I use or not I've got I've borrowed it from hundreds. And hundreds of years of Japanese tradition, which is called iki guy so your reason for being and. There's a podcast episode on on iki guy how, to find your iki guy and so I use that in the context of coaching and, there are four elements to it so if you imagine a Venn diagram that's, got overlaps, and there's one central, overlap of all four and, those four elements are what. Am I good at what, do I love what, problems, does, the world have that needs solving and, what can I get paid for and so. I think all of us would love to go to work with about a balance, of all of those things and. This is in the work context, but even, if you looked at it outside of your work there are things that you do outside of your work that have nothing to do with money, because. They fulfill other aspects, of your EQ guy and then you go to your job to do the money bit right so, it's a really good way to have a look at your life holistically. So I always, use that with people in coaching, to say just. Reflect, on what, are the things that fit in each of those bubbles all those circles that. Will help you then work out where, are you now and where do you want to go so, in, the work context, if you're bringing, your. Your job so that assuming. That you're in a job already and you're, seeking to understand, and you're working out what's the biggest problems are the pain points for the customers, the internal customers you're trying to serve you. Will be more successful at work if you start to work on that someone. Hit me up the other day. Who have had coaching conversations, we've been and they said again a new safety person they said I'm gonna read lots of codes of practice and. I said why they're. Getting lots of questions and I said why like, is that really necessary in, order for you to help them now it may very well be in which case that's the perfect professional development, for that person it, just might not be and, so it's a question of actually asking what's the connection between the effort that I'm putting in and then who am i serving it is at the right time well, how to teach, you people to find and read the codes of practice themselves, well that, could be part of it absolutely and, that but that might be great for us to say oh well that's an ID or view if this business relies on safety, people to give them answers then.
As Much as that's not my view of how our safety function is most effective, that's, appropriate, for that context, I mean that's just the tune tuning, into risk-based thinking that's what I'm thinking about it it aren't thinking like that like one quarter, at a time and so, for you out there watching and listening is. You. Know we do we do sometimes try to go a little bit big big picture and we're consuming all these content like you're sitting there consuming, this content right now just. Have a think about that just stop and think okay what what you know set myself twelve weeks from now you know we're coming to the end of 2018. I hate to say that but it's you know we just hit the beginning of September it's. Disappearing, quickly and so. I'm now just thinking about okay it moves so quickly so, I've got to move quickly to, nail. Some things in this could really, little, literally, creating that sense of urgency for myself at that time stamp, you feel like. To. Nail things down because, the next 12 weeks will be just gone yeah you, know look the weekends gone in the weeks gone and the weekends go so. You. Know I guess that's just psychologically. How I give myself my. Own sense of urgency to say well I've got 12 weeks I've got to knock these stuff off and then I don't go too big yeah keep it really small you got the you got the end in mind maybe that, that could be you know you nowhere near where your business plan was in the beginning is just think. That 12 weeks ahead and just go right what can we knock off in there in the next week I think that's really good advice because thinking, about my. Own priorities, I don't, know that I've actually got to set myself hard deadlines on a lot of them so, yeah. Look, it's, that set that whole self-paced approach right as an entrepreneur, you, know or even you know you you. Know while you might throw the late the entrepreneurial, label over the top of us. Any individual, who's got the autonomy, to look after their own career it's. An entrepreneurial, pursuit, is well, I'm selling my I'm selling, my intellectual property my time you, know whatever that might be so just be mindful that it's running yourself like a business and just going okay what's my business plan for the next or it's, the quarter your honor by the quarter how do I go this quarter how do I go next quarter that, same approach and that, may see you, if you're feeling frustrated if you're feeling like someone who's not you know you didn't, make any traction in the last 12 weeks no problems it's, you know there's there's hold yourself accountable to, the next 12 weeks don't worry about the past just get on with it and it's funny because I ask people that all the time I'll catch up with someone and I'll say how did that new idea go that you were gonna try.
Hasn't. Happened so. Yeah. So. What questions have you got for us, what's. A what's the biggest challenge for you guys at the moment I, think the biggest challenge for us at the moment is audience, engagement is, we. Are getting our, webinar, numbers are growing very rapidly and, I think our webinars, they. Are and they're and there are a lot of fun, we've. Got one in a couple of days time in this very room so we're. Getting good numbers so we're getting you, know the last webinar 150. People joining us live, 150. A month live. Is pretty good I, think you know it's not the record but it's it's, you know we had that big spike and now we're just on that steady, growth, Regios. Numbers without any boosting, so we're not it's not paid advertising, to get more people to join the. Audience I think the the, words starting, to get out there that there's this great thing on once a month yeah the biggest challenge is getting those people to ask questions yeah, feel the confidence that two weeks to, expose themselves because it's potentially. Community, of unknown people and to get on the chat and get that get, that question into. The questions list so that they you know clears that blockage because it's ultimately free so I think the, biggest thing for us is is, to give people the confidence to come out from behind their keyboard and ask, a question publicly in that public environment because it's, not like you're in the room at the conference and you've sort of sussed everybody, it's. Not for everybody but someone, will go you know they'll feel the nerves and they'll stand up and ask the question at the conference, this. Is you. Know it's completely public, so I think, there's a little bit of fear there where people will you know they're a bit scared making themselves vulnerable, if, you're, really really clever you just set up a generic Gmail it doesn't uniquely, identify, you and ask the question anyway yeah, just asking for a friend so I think that's that's one of our biggest challenges, for. Us