How to Pivot Your Business When You Feel Trapped by Its Success — with Jason Van Orden
What's. Next. This. Is a question, we're all having, to ask and answer more frequently, I'm Jenny, Blake your host of the pivot podcast, and author, of pivot the only move that matters is your next one. For. Show notes from this episode visit pivot, method dot-com slash podcast. If. Change, is the only constant then. Let's get better at it here, we go. Hello. Everybody, welcome, back to the pivot podcast, I am so excited to have my good friend Jason, Van Orden here, today, Jason. Helps thought leaders reach a larger audience with, their ideas create. New income streams from their expertise, and build business models that align with their goals in, September. Of 2005. Jason, co-founded. The first-ever, podcast, about internet, business, mastery, and, online marketing and it, quickly became one of the top business podcasts, in the world, Jason. Was there before 80 of us were there so, I can't wait to dive into that and his. Mission now is to help visionaries, with impactful, ideas reach, the people they serve best and the problems, they are uniquely, positioned to solve he's. Also working on a passion, project discussing. Entrepreneurship. And mental. Health, not, to mention has, an, amazing. Life Melanie who have also had the pleasure of getting to know through our mutual friend Tori Clark and the. Most adorable, daughter Jason. Welcome to the show hi. Jenni yeah thank you for having me this is great when. We first met you were going through this, self-described. Two-year, mega, pivot. Process, and, I, remember you saying that one of the things you were exploring is what, to do when your business feels like a prison, take. Me to that time and what was going on when you started to feel stuck in this very, successful. Business. That you had built for yourself. Yeah. So this was in 2014. And, I, was I was living in Paris at, the time and. The, reason I mentioned that is that this. Was the achievement. Of a. Pinnacle, lifestyle. Moment. To live in Paris with my wife and and we're, talking a goal we'd had even. Before I knew I'd be an entrepreneur, so. There was living this moment with. A business that was providing, for that to you, know be possible, the flexibility, the finances, and as. Much as I was loving living in, Paris. I was noticing that. A. Good. String, of days and maybe even some months weeks and months had gone by where, I just wasn't, that fulfilled. By my. Business, and it, you. Know it wasn't even like it was this realization, that I fully embraced, and accepted even, though it was kind of there it needed to sit. And and and. Really, try talking. To me for a while for me to go okay wait something's wrong I need to listen and, I. You. Know I think the reasons, I wasn't, listening is number, one you, know being afraid of what would that mean for the business a business that was successful, that I had been in for ten years a business, that was. Based on teaching other people how to pursue, something in life of passion. And meaning and fulfillment, based on their strengths, and yet here. I was also in a business that didn't feel like that for me, which, triggers. Thoughts. Of imposter, ISM and being a fraud a bit right and. And. Then what, does that mean if I let, the, cab the bag so to speak and admit to myself this, isn't doing it for me anymore and yet, I'm in the middle of living. The. Lifestyle, in Paris that depends, on that very business, to allow that right so that, was, a scary. Moment it took a while for me to go okay wait something, needs to happen, here, and. My. Wife, Melanie, who is amazing what mentioned, to me like she, could tell I mean she she knows when things aren't going well even though I can very much kind. Of go inside, myself and not share as much of what's going on and she, encouraged me to go on a personal, retreat.
Which. Is pretty fantastic when, you're living in Paris and you can just like take, a hundred Euro flight to Rome, or Amsterdam or whatever right so, like okay great oh go, to Prague because I've never been there before I know when I get out of my element I go somewhere new somewhere novel. Something's. Bound to come up that, is, an insight and an insight did come up, the, insight was I need a sabbatical for my business. Which. Was scary because I had, no clue how. That could possibly happen because my business was still, pretty. Dependent, on me and my ideas and creating, value, and I did and regular basis and I. Didn't. Ever bring this up to my business partner because, what would that mean if, all sudden you know I mentioned him I might, not really dig our business anymore and now. That's, you, know you can't put that back in the bottle once that's out and like all Sony's gonna be like great Jason's not invested in the business what does this mean you know so. Kind. Of scary like how these realizations and, to not have any clue of like what that was going to mean it's, terrifying I remember, I also. When. I was going through my big, you call it these inflection, points, that I know you have a real interest in with. Being. Kind, of moving on past life of after college and I kept one of the things that my, that. Got in the way was I kept saying to myself don't bite the hand that feeds you, and I just felt like what you described, although. I wasn't advising, people on how to build a business and then getting hitting. A plateau in my business which is. That's. Even scarier you, know because, like you said that was the very thing funding. This, big dream that you and your wife had had since you got engaged but. I remember it was very hard. To even admit that I was struggling. Because, I, didn't, want to bite the hand that feeds me and the same thing happened when I was at Google how. Did you, get. Over that how did you just. Accept. Those feelings, that paradox, of entrepreneurship, that you can get tired of the very thing that you built that got you the, success that you have what were your first steps after having, that aha and Prague well. At first I you know I I thought, maybe I would just somehow. Fix, it and not have to really bring it up her face at which do what wasn't gonna work it. Actually took another two or three of, those retreats which. Might very graciously, encouraged, me to you know so one, in Rome and one in Amsterdam and one do which. Was fantastic but, every time I was like yeah some scary realization, coming up finally, just it was clear to me it's like okay, there's, only one next step here I have to talk to my business partner about, this. And. Usually. I think in these moments there is some kind of conversation, that needs to be had with someone when we're, stuck in these kinds of business, or otherwise right. Thankfully. Yeah. I mean he was very understanding in fact he in, some ways had been having similar, feelings, I mean we've been in this business for, like 10 11 years at the time and that for, someone entrepreneurs, it's a very long time especially a business that you're you know very much integrated. In you're yourself. Not only as like a you know CEO leader. Of the business but you know like it was our. Ideas, and our voice and like everything, and. So. That was a relief and and we and, a big lesson was that through, two or three long conversations. Because he was like yeah sabbatical, would be great. What. Seemed like an impossible idea. We found a creative solution eventually. And that was here's, a way that both of us can have the space. To. Explore. Outside. Of the business what does this mean is there other do we just need to find some other what. Are the possibilities, like just need to find some other outside pursuits and that'll read it energized us and we can keep the business going -, and. Thankfully the realization we had was oh there is there's, this woman in the business that we've been working, with she has a freelancer, she was doing lots of copywriting, and all these other things were like you know she knows she knows a lot of the aspects of the business I bet she could run things if we passed her - and, that's.
What We did we said ok great we will just. Show. Up to do the podcast because I needs to keep, happening hand. The reins over to her and give. Herself this space let's just do a 90 day experiment, of and. And. See how it goes and that, 90 day a sabbatical actually, turned into an 18-month sabbatical. Which. Was actually quite dreamy it was like hey I was working maybe, four. Hours tops a month on that, business thing and it, continued, to make the. Money that I needed to to live, off of so in many ways is like oh well this is kind of what you. Know a lot of us talk about with lifestyle, business anyway right right. So that was nice what, you had been teaching, people for years right, right and and that self is a great example because we. Think about taking sabbaticals. From corporate, jobs and there's a lot about that but very. Few people talk about how do you take a sabbatical from your own business, and. I love that you and your business partner were able to design that together, and. I was inspired there's a TED talk that I'm sure you've seen and I'm forgetting the gentleman who did it but it is about you basically I think he takes a sabbatical from his business like very for, a year like every 7 years or something like that so. Any way people might want to look that up because it was quite inspiring to stay here that. But. The. Outcome. Of that sabbatical, was that it was exactly what I needed it gave me the space I mean I was realizing I hadn't been giving my in the business I hadn't begin myself to space to explore my curiosity. Like I needed to that that's very much something that fuels me I'd, been getting far too much tied into just, strategy, strategy strategy, what's the next right answer, to grow the next number to the next level and it just choked, out all curiosity. Intuition. I, you. Know I was leveling out in mastery and growth because I've been just been teaching and doing the same things for years and years and years, but. By, having the space to like start exploring is like okay now what am i interested in who do, I want to work with next, or now who do I like what, do I love about what I've done in the last decade, and what would I be, fascinated. To try more of and by. The end of that 18 months it was clear that I I, couldn't go back I was like yeah this I, mean it was it. Was nice that it kept working but. The. Way that we took that's about actually, we discovered, wasn't completely, and, we don't think in ed Diesel's but wasn't completely sustainable and so about 18 months after that sabbatical. Started there was like a. Definitive. Moment was like okay we have to decide are we reading, gauging full-time with this business to keep it going and grow it again or are we done and the answer was, very obvious, to me I'm done, I've. Got, other ideas and things and I'm ready to pursue I'm, still, not 100%, clear, on them but I for, sure. Yeah, k that, I what I was doing was great but I can't go back to doing that anymore and especially for, you having, a podcast, and as you said being so close to it if your, heart's not in it anymore, you. Can't it's so hard I feel like a podcast shows. Everything, you, know you.
Can't Really fake it in that floor in this format it's too intimate and, to be honest I think. And. We might have even said this towards the end of the, podcast, I think, people probably that, we said you probably you know we were talking to the listener you probably could tell the last couple of years it's been different and that's the for the exact reason that you you. Say right there and. It. You, know yeah so that at that moment of that, moment of truth right there, as. Certain, as I'm making, it sound that I was in that moment to, things are still very much on my mind number one I guess, I failed this business which obviously, in, hindsight logically, speaking just ridiculous, like it's ignoring all the people we taught the money we made the things we did the impact we had and for, some reason just felt like oh I guess I failed that business, because, and, had to just you know, emotionally. Remind myself and believe it's like no I am making a decision here to move on right this is not failure, and number two though was. This identity, shift I had to happen because in a way I was like well. If I'm not Jason Van Orden of internet business mastery the first business about the. First podcast about internet, business, you know and everybody knows me for like Who am I and, that. Wasn't easy to to let go of that. Those. Are so huge the feeling. Of failure which as you said I didn't, share all the stats at the beginning but you had 8 million, downloads, of this podcast you what. More could you probably. Even say over, 10 years of episodes, about creating, an internet business and in a way I feel like again. You. Not. Only were you not a failure it was a huge, success because, it. Provided, the platform for you to grow and then of course you're gonna want to expand, just who, you are as a person, as you know I would call you high net growth who, wanted, to expand beyond that and it's in, my mind just a huge success even, how you and your business partner we're able to figure. That out together. Yeah. Yeah, how. Did and thankfully in there that's when you're booking I think I. Know that sounds like it's. Becoming good timing yeah exactly and, we got to meet. How. Did this time, lead, you to this interest in passion you have now in the, link, between entrepreneurship. And mental, health. Yeah. So. Underlying. All of this I mean, accompanying. This was um, was. That a there, was definitely a depression, that was returning and at first I just thought oh well this is a lack of you know just I'm not engaged in my business it's not energizing, me and that's certainly was part of it but. At. The same time and I don't know what all the factors are that contributed, to this but depression is something that I have had struggles with for 1213, years and you know I've been able to manage. It, you. Know for the most part for a lot of that time but. It. Started really just, rearing. Its ugly head again during, this period and even, during that that's, sabbatical, and the.
The. One. Of the things that I'm one of the ways that manifested. Which was really hard for me was. As just a lack. Of motivation and, creativity, when it would really flare. Up and so over those 18 months I had this cycle, of you. Know I've got this space to discover I'm. Gonna, follow my curiosity. I'd get like an idea of like who this could be an interesting book to write or let me go to this conference and see what that's about and I get excited and you know and I'm allowing, myself to to kind of discover, and follow curiosity. Do little experiments, which is something you talk about but, here's the problems like I would, get an idea to get all excited about it, I would, dive in and you know maybe I'd get a week into it or maybe it gets six weeks into it and all, sudden just BAM, I was like the floor dropped out of under, me and, it was just like all apathy, no creativity, no motivation, and, you. Know the first couple times they're like okay so that wasn't the right thing that's just a sign. Oh I'll try the next thing but after like the sixth and the seventh and eighth time I, got. To this point where my biggest fear was that I couldn't. Trust my own motivation, and creativity anymore, and to. Some degree for a while it felt like oh well maybe that means I've used all my good ideas I, guess that's it I had a good run and how like like all these weird, you. Know in. Hindsight seemingly. Irrational ideas, but that felt very emotionally, true to me at the time and so over. All, these cycles of that boom-and-bust of, motivation, that was completely, unpredictable, and, when it would bust it was like oh is this gonna how, long is it gonna take for it to come back I had no idea and my. Confidence, was just eroding, every time and so. It got to the end of like what would be 2016. Where. Yeah, I was just like not only lacking motivation and creativity but my confidence, was just like shot, because, I, just. And and, I was isolating, myself more and more not talking about this stuff and and so. Which is like the worst thing to do when you're. Losing. The confidence in myself was, probably.
One Of the worst feelings. Of the, whole thing it's like I could deal with so many ups and downs but, when I no longer trusted myself and had confidence, that I could do this or that I knew I was on the right track it's so hard. Yeah. Totally, and. And. The one thing that it was managing, to do I mean I was still making thankfully. Like the money that I needed to kind of keep things, going because by then like, the, other business because we had you, know extracted. Ourselves, it was clear it wasn't just going to keep yeah making the money was and so, we were letting that go so that money was starting to disappear. That's. Why I mean I in that moment with my confidence getting, shot everything I did ask myself well what's what's something that can still kind of engage me and the answer was well I'll do one-on-one consulting because. When. I am in the room with somebody and I'm feeling like I'm showing up to help and serve them like I am able to in. That moment show up and. You. Know and get results for them and then I'll you know go back home and and feel like crap again friend like at least it you know so that's how I was like making money now the. Whole time though and I can touch on that a little bit more in a second, those that one-on-one consulting was actually serving a whole lot of other purposes other than just like keeping, some cash coming. In. But. At the end of the twenty sixteen I finally had to go okay something like is really and it's weird because it wasn't even like I was fully identifying, it as, oh this, is depression coming back, and. I was resisting, that idea too and finally I had to go you know what this is feeling just as bad or as worse as you know this one summer way back when and that was a you know and and and so. Finally was like okay I I'm, gonna go see a, psychiatrist. And I looked somebody up and I went and saw and he was like yeah I think we should you know catch you some medication, get you feeling better and then we can start you know looking, into other things and. That was certainly. First. Of all just like the acknowledgement, of that and then the second of all the you, know and having a professional acknowledge and second of all you know medication, can be a, great, help to, kind of start turning things back around. Was. Yeah. That was the moment that things started, to. Get. Better but one other thing I wanted to share that happen in that time there was that a a. Friend, of mine invited me to to, go to just, kind of like a peer mastermind, hey, let's go get together in Florida we'll rent a nice house, and, two or three days there with. Some smart people and help each other with each of our businesses, right I was like okay well I. Really. Feel like crap right now I have no idea what I'm doing but I know that every time I get out of my usual. Environment and in the room with smart people something's. Gonna come out of it so I said yes even though part of me just like all you want to do is stay at home and fill it like you, know crud, and. You. Know to sum that up really quickly like a wint they're not knowing what to expect and, kind of you. Know with my list of quote-unquote. Strategic, tactical questions. To ask them what do you think if I did this what do you think if I did that but thankfully. The people in that group many, of whom we didn't know each other when we showed up just the one woman who had invited us all there that, we all knew her. People. In that group, opened. The door just to crack enough a couple people with comments they made or whatever to, allow. For vulnerability, to happen which is you. Know I think where you get the most out of the mastermind, is when it's not just a strategic but you can like go to that more vulnerable, place and. So. Became clear to me like we're. I know what I need to talk about I need to talk about, this. Year-long experience. Of just being depressed and losing all my confidence and feeling completely crushed and have no idea what's next and. You, know and I procrastinated. Until like I was one of like the last two people to take my you know hot seat because, I was like I don't want, a dog about this. But. Sure enough my turn, came and I just started you know explaining, and here's where I'm at and this, is what's going on and, just as I was talking, about you know then people started chiming in and saying yeah you know I've actually been there before, so I'm like that's happened to me you know turns out in number room of 10 like three of us myself included had, been on medication, either at that time or at some time before and had, struggled with some kind of mental house that was you, know just they're like oh I'm not the only one having that reminder, it's nice but.
I Think the biggest thing is that by sharing, it with my, peers, you know yes I talked, to my wife Melanie, better yes I talked to psychiatrists about it but, by finally, opening up and sharing it with my peers, and. Going. From my you, know lizard. Brain thinking, no you can't talk about this because you will die because, in the lizard brain mind it's like you, say this people, lose respect for you you are ostracized, ostracized. Means death. Right that's like the evolutionary, brain, I remember insane if. I really, reveal, where I'm at my clients, the law of attraction. You. Call it that will stop working and all have this magnet, that repels, people clients. Won't come I won't have any money I don't can't view myself I'll be even more depressed, totally. Until. You die until. You die it does it feels like it's gonna be death. But. I didn't die like, I shared that and I got empathy. I got you know recognition, people witnessed, my like struggles, and my pain and is. Like wow. That. Horrible. Moment I didn't die and I like and. Then right after that like I had, our own like room with a you, know bathroom. In this big nice, house we'd rented and I just, wouldn't have like this huge emotional, release, like I hadn't had probably since my daughter had been born like five years before, and, so. That was a bit that was a turning point it, wasn't like all disappeared, in that moment that was like okay, Wow. Okay so this you know hope, started, coming back in, and so that was, you, know that was just a key part, of all this for whatever reason like that was part, of something that needed to, for. Me in this printed process not that every pivot, process learnt you, know leads to a mental, health crisis. Of sorts but, you. Know it in, this case it did come along with my experience, and that. Was an important piece that I had to start unwinding tea, to, really open up to the next. The. Next iteration, of next, evolution, of my my. Career well, there's there's so much power and truth. And speaking. Your story and as you said the, moment you were you, did take the risk to do that not. Only could people, say oh me too I've been there and you, felt less alone but they could probably relate and I bet everybody in the room gained something I don't, know, about you and your wife is so bold in this way she's, talked, about her, experiences. Leaving the Mormon Church and just, when you speak your story, it's, like and that. Deep truth, just. The room there's. This beautiful silence, and rapt attention and, people it's. What we crave. Yeah. Absolutely. Just. One more thing could then speak to both but, I I can't remember which publication, but there are several, articles that I've read about how entrepreneurs, do.
Tend To experience, I, don't. Know if we could say more mental health issues but certainly their own variety of a. Constant, sense of anxiety or stress or, things that of course, you're gonna like not of, course you're gonna fall into depression but, it's very scary, when your entire as you said your entire identity and, ability, to provide for yourself hinges. On, your. Work I mean it's everything's. Wrapped up in it now for, many entrepreneurs in, a way that wasn't in the, past or at, least that has shifted. So. Anyway go ahead 100%. 100% and that's yeah. I mean I I want. To look and see what kinds of numbers I can find but I I, mean it just, after. That moment I started having a lot more conversations. With. People, and and you. Know bringing up and sharing like I for, 10 years my business partner didn't even know that I had struggled, with depression like this is just not something I wanted to share for all the reasons you said and so you know. As. When honest are getting more and more comfortable with sharing that which is had now led to the mental health podcast that I want to start because, I started, having I was. Like okay three out of ten people in that room right and then I start having more conversations with other entrepreneurs and more things started coming up and I do, think, that you. Know because mental health can lead to maybe, challenges. Of operating in, the status quo because you know maybe you know it's just, hard for you to you. Know conform, to whatever models. Of you know corporate life or what it's just like I'm gonna go do my own freedom thing so that you. Know at least that stuff doesn't trigger my mental health. But, then, entrepreneurship. Itself. Fiat brings up all these other things that can, aggravate. Instigate. Trigger and you, know as well and so, yeah. It's a conversation I want to. See. People having a lot more and so whatever I can do to catalyze. Or bring that conversation, would, be great because first, of all if, people can just hear, the stories and go and be reminded, that no they're not the only one that is you, know that deals with those kinds of things, and. Number. Two you know maybe they'll go okay this this is happening, to me and there are things that can help so they need to figure out what's going to help me, that. Would be great. How. Has the identity, piece, that. Big fear of who am i if not Jason, Van Orden the host co-host of internet business mastery podcast, how, is it now a couple years later. Well, you're still developing I know you have two new podcasts, in the works and of course you're doing so many other things I want to get into your strategy, design, process, soon, as well but. How is it for you being in this identity. Interim. Yeah. So. There. Was a lot of fog. There, as as. There often is and it took, you, know it was somewhere, in the, middle of last year where I started, being able to look not, only like see some of it clearing ahead of me but looking back and seeing the breadcrumbs behind me. And, I, mentioned that you know I've been doing that consulting, is because it's like well this is a way to bring in some some cash so, that I can. Because, that's another thing that I needed to mentally, extract myself for my last business was just knowing that like I have another way I'm bringing in money so whatever happens with that it's not weighing, on my my. Mind right and making my anxiety even worse. The. Consulting, did some interesting stuff. My. Last business I didn't do any, it was all digital, courses. And you know group online coaching far, more arm's, length but, by. Showing. Up, in her room like doing things like VIP days and one-on-one calls with people I started. Getting all these really interesting there, was a feedback loop that started and I think maybe even you talked, about the feedback loops in your book or something like it right it was like I started. Having this reflection, to me of where. I created. The best value, for people how I showed, up what kinds of strengths, they appreciated, in me I.
Would Show up you know prepared to do one thing in a VIP day thinking oh this is what they're paying before is all this you know we're gonna figure out and outline all their emails but in the end finding, out oh it, was much more about following my intuition, and asking good questions and. And just pointing out this one thing that they kind of knew but they needed somebody else Darian for you know it's just like you know good coaching skills but they didn't like very specifically, me. What. Is it about how I see the world about how I see people about how I ask questions about how I show up that people appreciate. And so that that started helping me eventually rebuild, that confidence, discover. New realms. New new layers of my, unique. Genius as we call it our strengths. And. Then not only that but because of that really close. Association. With people and seeing inside of their businesses. Well, for one being reminded that as much as we think everyone else has it figures out I figured out guess what everyone's, business is a mess okay yours business is not the only one that's a mess so I've seen in a site a lot of businesses last two or three years and everyone's got their messes so that was nice to be reminded of but then to like go oh this. Is what people are really struggling with right now this is the unmet need these are the questions people are asking and, getting ideas about how I, would. Be most excited, or could best answer. Those questions meet those needs and. So. My identity, started to restructure. And reform and so now one thing I tell people is like when they're like madam what's lacking clarity. You. Know besides, saying hey I've got a great framework for that to help you to restructure your business, and find clarity I say. Look go. Have a lot of conversations. With. People follow. Your curiosity. Maybe. Even think as counterintuitive, as it might be go back and maybe do some consulting. Or something like that even though it's not scalable. Or whatever. Because. You just yeah so many great insights come out of following. Your curiosity, having these conversations and, doing this consulting, I guess that's three C's that works out really nicely under your framework person, Jenny I, love it three C's of clarity, conversations, curiosity, and consulting, the old content there was nothing I started creating really, on four C's. Yeah. I started create yeah I started, creating content again and discovering, new. Aspects. Of my voice and just really exploring with that and you know this is like another, you know year from that moment moving, forward but like yeah, the identity, started restructuring. And those are some of the tools that helped, me and. Now I would say like you, know I've discovered a part of my voice I never knew was there before I am leveraging, strengths, that I had either, ignored. Or even hadn't, even fully, realized, we're. There and I you know I can set myself somebody pretty tries to be pretty aware about my strengths, and infuse, those but there's always more you can learn about yourself and. Yeah. I'd have this level, a new, level of, confidence. About what I want to say and do, in the world and certainly, at. That moment in depression it seemed like impossible.
To Refined. That but. You. Know bit bit by bit you know following, a kind of process. That you like talked about in your book like little experiments. And taking stock at and key moments, and. Feedback. Loops like it the identity did a, new identity one, that I even embrace and feel even better about that builds on what was there like. It emerged. It showed up yeah that's what gave I had a huge smile as you were saying that that you. Were able to find and reconnect with parts of yourself that weren't even expressed, in the last Dennis, so it's not like you're trying to rebuild the exact same Holy Grail that was stumbling. Upon podcasting. Super, early in 2005. But. In this new direction there's, so much gold to be mined and I just loved hearing you say that you. Feel even, more yourself, now, on the other side which is I think the gift for going through this, hero's, dirty of inertia. Gift. Discovering. These new parts of me I don't know who were there and number two which is you know kind. Of a cliche cliche thing, that people say but that, struggle, of the last two or even three years. Now. Informs, my business. In so many ways like, that extreme lack of clarity. Has. Helped me now in. Being. Better at, helping, entrepreneurs who, are also now you know in an inflection, point find. That. That clarity because I've been there in these depths and brought back these tools and insights and, I. Feel. Like it's also given me a new level of I mean I don't know compassion, and empathy and ability, to see, and serve, having, gone through this, you know gauntlet, of whatever there's abyss of so. Yeah. The. Nice Phoenix, metaphor a new identity, and stuff but then also like. They say like the stuff you go through then allows you to bring that forward and use that and in, in, ways that bring a lot of value to other people, absolutely. It's as if life hands, you the missing piece like oh you're a business strategy consultant. For ten years and you're, leaving all these people well here's something that might be missing, that's. What I found too that going through the struggle just like you said I now that. Time showed, me, what's. Missing actually. In the market because why did I struggle so, much why is it so hard and that gave me an opportunity to, create something, new. Out of that as I solved that for myself. One. Thing that intrigued me from your website you. Talked about the size the success, trifecta. If one. Or more of these three things is lacking your progress and growth will slow or even stall, completely. So now I'm dying to know what is the size success, I can't I think of that what is it the success, at trifecta, I encourage, you to try that's a tongue twister that is a tongue twister um so. Here's, what's funny is you don't have to remind me what the success trifecta, is because. Probably changed the name to something else forgot that I used to call it that that, is so many well I don't, know because, that's all that I wrote down but, I know that, you do have, like. Another thing that you've said and so maybe we can just zoom this out too. What. Do you find having, worked with entrepreneurs, for over 10 years approaching. 15, what. Do you find is missing, for, people who seem, to have successful, businesses from, the outside but. They, hit these growth plateaus, and can't, seem to take it to the next level. Yes. Okay and I actually found on my site and this, is so interesting because this is I can see how this was like early. Stuff. That's now developed, further into the frameworks, that I teach, in the workshop that I have now, but. Yeah I like the question you asked and for those who are curious. And dying the success trifecta, was actually you, know vision of where you're going strategy. For, getting there and then you. Know frequent, execution. In. Doing the work to execute. According to the plan and so it is a useful framework sometimes, to go okay if you're feeling stuck is it, that the vision is unclear is it that maybe you need to change the strategy because that's not working for you or is it just that you haven't really been consistently, executing, on the strategy, that you've chosen, but. Even. Further to the question that you asked. Yeah. Here's what was missing from me so like my workshop, focuses, on.
On. Helping. People. Do. A deep dive and realign in in three, areas number, one is going back inside of themselves and, checking. It again and this is kind of some of the stuff that you do in your book to it like checking back in with and. What I call it is a three V so this this trifecta, actually kind of turned into some other things the three V's which our vision value invoice so vision. Is you. Know checking back in with where you where you want to go and. You. Know sometimes especially quick start fast hustle, entrepreneurs. We, start executing on a vision and don't realize maybe that vision has shifted or that we have drifted, away from it right and so we always sometimes need to like check back in with like where, was it that I was headed again why did I want that. And, sometimes that's a quick little check-in sometimes, it's a big big one right voice. Is really important especially I, work with a lot of thought leaders and now, these days like. Madhva. Podcast in 2005 and that was novel and new and cool and took off into a business because, I was, there first and the podcast itself was kind of the thing that made it interesting, we're. Out of the Wild West now online like these channels, and yes there are those new channels emerging but like things are a lot more saturated, these things like you're, not gonna start a podcast and by virtue of starting a podcast be, cool and new and interesting anymore. Now you gotta like really know what. Is it you're saying who you saying it to and why does it matter and, so you. Know that's where I really challenge. People to get specific about like you know not just having. A vision of where you're going but knowing like why. Why, is that vision, important to you and why is it important to the people that you you, serve through, your business and, knowing. You. Know voice is something that like artists talk a lot about but I think it's important, for yeah well anybody who creates and certainly thought leaders and entrepreneurs we, we create, and so, like there's a perspective to what we do there are values, that drive it there's on motivation, and that's probably, I mean most definitely. Connected. To past. Experiences, probably some of our hardest deepest, darkest past experiences, and challenges we've been through, and. So. Being aware of that but then also infusing, it into your work and making sure your audience knows like why this. Is why my business has meaning this is why it matters if my business went away tomorrow here's, why it would not only be a bummer for me but for the world because here's this thing that needs to be said and so. That's the voice piece I, mean there's we can do a whole episode just on that but then and then, value is kind of that unique strengths unique genius stuff. Is getting a lot, clearer and you know there's a lot of great assessments, out there and we take those assessments, sometimes strengths finder 2.0, and these are great but I also find that a lot of times we take them we go wow that's cool like I just read, my horoscope or, something right and and then, like three months later it's, like we've it's. It's drifted out of our consciousness and it's never managed to really seep into our messaging, and our systems, and our business and the way we spend our day-to-day and and so. You, know like not only is it, important to unlearn, new elements, of your. Strengths. And unique genius but then to be very deliberate about remembering like this is how I show up best in the world and so the decisions I make about my business the product offers the marketing, the messaging the sales what.
I Focus, on in the business team systems, like they all need to hinge on the fact that this. Is how I and, I call it the best self. Exercises. Like here's 10 statements of how you show, up and create the best value in the world and refer. To those often when you're making decisions or, else like you are robbing, yourself and, the world of value, that you could create and fulfillment you could have so, vision voice value and then very. Quickly check, back in with the audience and this. Is 3 R's relevance, top. Of mind pain this is just marketing 101 are you solving a pain what's the unmet need and. Is, it something actively, looking for willing to pay for it but then resonance is, understanding. What is motivating them why is that the top of mind pain what, what's the language they use to describe that pain what's. Their perception, of why they have the pain and the problem cuz often there's you know things. That they've got wrong about that what solutions, have they tried what, what. Do they failed at and so now they're frustrated is like really understanding, like the deeper needs, and motivations, underneath, that pain so that then when, you speak to it in your content in your marketing, in your speaking. Gigs and things like that you're, using language and stories and values that really. Resonate. And don't just, go oh yeah I have that problem and I need that that go like oh my gosh it's like I've been waiting for this person, to tell, me like, how, to solve this pain, and, then the third R is remarkable, T which is more than just unique value proposition and. You. Know this is more this, is about and you know we won't go into this but this is about knowing it's like okay well what you. Got to be novel, enough for people to stop and pay attention we're, in an attention, economy and, like the easiest the, the thing that they really want to do when they come across your brand for the first time your, your content, your idea whatever your ad is they, want to be able to go yeah, that's not relevant or yeah that's, relevant but been there seen that done that that just sounds like 500, other things I've seen it's like how. In, the way you show up are you making it so it's like whoa okay, wait a second this isn't, you, know five years ago paleo was novel now paleo is not novel there's a lot of paleo coaches, out there so how are you making paleo different just to give a concrete and like so, vision value voice. Relevance. Resonance. Remarkably and. Those. Are two phases in the third phases now let's look at the business model and go, what's. Out of alignment with those three V's in those 3 R's let's look at the messaging let's look at the channels you're using to communicate that messaging, what's, the value proposition, the services the products the ok wait and the way you deliver those services and those products, and you. Know just all the pieces that make up a good business model and very, quickly you start going oh kind. Of like I did is like oh my last business yeah totally out of alignment with my unique strengths, they reached a point where it's no longer that, piston wasn't firing anymore no wonder it, wasn't doing, it for me anymore, so just. As you know one little example and, that is then how on, a regular, basis you can hopefully whether. It's a little. Pivot. Or a big pivot you. Know reclaim. Some of that that. Clarity and that confidence, of the, next evolution, of your. Career. As an entrepreneur or your business model your pursuits, your body of work even because I love working with people are like what am i creating here what does this all add up to right. And so that's what I think those are some of the things I think people need to be thinking about especially in today's online, climate. If they, want to create, something meaningful stand out be, fulfilled create the greatest value Hey heck you'll probably make the most possible money going that direction too and that's there's nothing wrong with that either so. Good Jason, I love here you just read this. Is so. Many great gems in here about the. Three V's vision, value and voice and in, that section, I loved. The exercise, on value. To write down the 10 ways that. Is your personal, highest, and best use in the world and to keep that top of mind because. It is so easy to let our calendars, or schedules, or email inboxes get away from us where we are stuck doing, things that don't, make. It on to that list of the ways we are the most value you. Also mentioned, standing. Out and the attention economy and, shout.
Out To door Clark for her I. Love. It. I'm. Really curious I did not I think I hardly, knew what the word blog meant in 2005, though I was just launching. My first website, let. Alone podcast, so this is a two part question how, on earth you stumbled, upon podcasting. In 2005, and just, why. How, did you I mean I think no, one can ever know when you're about to stumble on quote the next big thing but, what. Interested, you and then, now it can be intimidating because there. Are so many like the New York Times not, just has one podcast maybe, 1015, that, they have the the daily that that I know I've many, friends who listen to it can be very intimidating for, a new creator even for myself that I'm a couple years in we're. Suddenly competing, with the, biggest celebrities, the biggest brands and then those brands have 1015 podcasts. Within the brand like Vanity Fair and so. What. Do you advise people to. Stand. Out or even to just encourage, them to keep going knowing, that attention, is so dispersed, now. Over. Ten years from when you started. Yeah. There's. Yeah, there's a couple really great. Insights, I think I can share here. Yeah. Quickly the story I'm podcasting, was that I was online and I was selling you know what, people. Sometimes call information products, at, the time it was an information product I created that was direct, marketing. Course, for, real estate investors so how to use Direct Mail to, find sellers and buyers and put deals together successfully. And. I. Needed. A way to sell this and it was like it was like a binder of like printed out PowerPoint. Stuff in CDs, physical, CDs I had to burn so this is like 2004. Going. Into 2005, and so I was like looking for you, know at the time there's none just social media I was I was posting articles on forums is what I was doing like, actual, you know forums like they used to I guess there's probably still some forums online but, and. It's. Always just I had my ear to the ground like what are some other ways to promote this stuff and I happen to be on this one newsletter, still because, melanine. I used to be in a band were very serious about it and we'd followed this guy. Bob. Baker who taught guerilla, marketing for musicians which included online stuff and he had a newsletter I was on email newsletter that came and it mentioned the word podcasting, and so it's like what is this podcasting. So. I entered it into Google as living here in New York City this is beginning very beginning at 2005, and Google immediately tried to correct, me you know did you mean because Google didn't know what podcasting, was yet and. Anyway. I came across some blogs and things and it was actually just like this very like geeky stuff at the time you know guys talking about who, RSS, specs and like mp3 enclosures. And the new, specifications. It allowed for does, and now I have an engineering background so, I understood, the technics. I have an audio background a disease and as a musician I understood, the recording, aspects, and the the, digital audio you know of mp3s, and how all that worked I was, already a marketer, in an online content, creator so I saw the business, possibilities. Of it so it just happened, to be this nice. Combination. Of my and, I you know the teacher in me I love teaching I'd been a teacher the reason I got into like consultants, and I'm letting like information, marketing, is I love teaching so it's just like this BAM, of all these things that intrigued, me so it's very much like I said earlier of following my curiosity thing. Now, I'd like to say in media is like this is going to be huge I'm doing, this but it was actually probably six, months and finally Melanie going I can. Tell you really interested just try. It out just do it right and. I felt like it's such a huge thing but I did I finally put a website online about podcasting. Because I was like you know what there's no good tutorials.
In Layman's, terms it's all a bunch of geeks geeking, out about this, what. About when the other people show up and want to create podcasts and, it turns out that that site took off and Google got the attention, of a, podcaster. Asked me to write a book I started speaking at conferences. So, that's the podcasting, story now but here's why another important. Insight here when. I was in this moment of rediscovering. My next you know where I was gonna go and it started getting some clarity and like, I said I was doing some consulting and you know I had, a good reputation in network but you know you got to start you, got to do a little bit of selling to get people to sign up and, one. Thing that I really struggled with and it was a friend I don't know if you know Michael read Roderick a friend of mine Michael Robert yeah again three, he, pointed this out to me because. I was telling they're like I. There's a sticking point when it comes to selling, my services like. I keep, talking, about this amazing stuff people keep saying Oh Jason, there's something about your way your brain works I really want to work with you but, they don't sign up and. You, know what. It came down to I wasn't, really selling, I wasn't really saying this is how you can work with me this, is how it where like and I think this is what you need so help you know here you go call-to-action sign up and I. Had this weird blockage, because. Two. Times in a row I had. Created something, and. People. Just showed up because, it was the, timing and and, the quality of the thing whatever and the one was launching that podcasting, site and because. It was needed at the time and I happened to follow my curiosity, and that tutorial, site took off boom, audience. Publishing. Deal speaking. Gigs consulting. Courses. Launched. As an, experiment, internet, business mastery to just kind of figure out the podcasting, thing turns. Out that took off because early, to the game nobody, else talking about internet business on a podcast and so, in my psyche I had this belief like I'm the guy that just creates good stuff and people show up and so. I had this weird I don't know if he call it pride or whatever like actually having to like pound the pavement and, sell. You. Know and, the. Truth of the matter this is what a lot of entrepreneurs have to do in struggle is like figure out how to sell your thing that's like the first step that you have to do well I'd gotten lucky and my two to. My earliest, yeah. Things that I had created and so, the. Point I'm making there is it you know when you go through these big pivot sometimes, things you thought. You. Would overcome like impostor syndrome whatever like those show up again and then also lessons, that maybe you actually never really learn like you might be a in my case 12-year experienced. Entrepreneur. And, for. Whatever reasons, way, back when he didn't learn this one lesson that a lot of people have to learn. And. I. Had to relearn that lesson about kind of like you know pounding. The pavement sales on the phone and not just I create.
Good Stuff and people show up when they want to buy for me right so. There's a couple insights that I wanted to share there to answer your question and also say like whether. That's. That's probably you've, probably seen this too and your research about pivots like that those are phenomenon, that are gonna show up and people need to be aware of yeah. And for me I'm always striving anyone. Who's in my private. Momentum. Community, its first side hustlers and solopreneurs. I think. Half the people are there because I don't. Do. Things I don't feel like doing. I'm. Hiring you as my coach because you don't like social media so mammals find, it very interesting, that any, momentum, my motto is always I'm, always saying on our Q&A calls let, it be easy, let it be fun what, types of getting the word out resonate, for you what speaks to your heart what. Would, be easy what, would be fun like I just don't, for. Me kind, of similar to you I probably got spoiled, early on by having a blog that got, to a book and and, so on but I still for me I don't believe in like. Pounding, the pavement, in a way that feels like sandpaper to, my soul, yes. A. Lot of advice. That's, out there I end up almost, purposefully. Having a smaller platform. Though I do believe in a nonlinear, universe where those, practices, that can still lead to the perfect sized, audience for, me so Who am I to know and. And. I just love, what you said and I think when, you are tuned, in to, all those things that you help your clients with about voice and remark ability, and value, then. The right people, will. Come, around but, it takes that work that you help people do it's not just about the marketing which I know wasn't a point you're making but like, it no but does require more specificity, yes that's. An excellent point I'm glad you made that distinction because it wasn't, about pounding, the pavement, and grinding, cuz actually that is a lesson I've had to learn more. Because I another. Thing I was doing in that pivot moment is I was in that pivot moment is I kept, looking for the next right answer, and what, I meant like what and like the equivalent of oh if I just put up a site about this my, next thing will take off if I just launched a podcast, it'll. Take off like what was the equivalent now in you know 2017. At the time 2017. And it, doesn't always work that way but. I had. To kind of extract myself from this oh just find, the right answer my engineering, mind like give me the variables I'll solve for the answer and I'll pursue that answer right as I, know I've had to come to a much more intuitive. Ease. What's, follow, my curiosity, what, feels good kind of place and it and it has now served, me well but that's, been a learning process for me to become more. Comfortable with, exactly, what you just described there I'm, not a huge like. Gary Vee I, don't, actively, read, or follow his stuff that closely however one. Thing he talks about is documentation. Rather. Than the. Finished product and so I use nowadays, too, it's.
More About being open and and. Sort of creating. Content and sharing, your story and that, feedback loop that we talked about that, if you can just let people in on the process, the thing is going to build itself like the right answer will build itself but not up front it's. Like you almost have to build into it organically, well the audience is there hanging out with you. That's, certainly how I feel about my podcast, like probably, I think some. People momentum, it's you are like we, probably see where it's going more than you do and I know for sure that's true. Well, you referenced. A blog post I wrote I don't remember maybe a year two ago and I was like the early, form. I couldn't even remember what that was because that was like an early form of what it's become now and. I. Gehry. These great not my style I don't follow my light either so I'm gonna recommend and this is something I bring up a lot lately, is Austin cleon's book show your work same. Principle, just a little easy you can read this book in like an hour and a half and that's exactly what you just said it's like you got a frickin show your work loved, it Jason. I could talk to you all day and we didn't even get into a fraction. Of your, business, mind that is just so sharp like. Even hearing you fire off the. Three V's and we came up with today the four C's to, be added in Russia three B's oh my gosh so good I can, I can completely, see why people just love spending, time with you to figure out their business I always, like to leave people with one small, piece of homework and I know you're very practical, as well. If when, people are finished, listening to this conversation what, would you encourage them to do. Choose. One of the seas either conversations. Or curiosity, there's a couple other we mentioned but I'm gonna say the conversations, are curiosity, so either ask yourself um. You. Know whether things are going really well you're really stuck right now just like what am I really curious about right now and then. Go do. Something to experiment. Or or. You, know dive, into that. And and you know or block out an hour in the week of like yes this is going down the rabbit hole and it's not immediate you gonna pay off but I'm curious about this right now because. There's something there and your curiosity, is a compass. And, somewhere. Down the line and a few weeks few months a couple years it is going to add up to something, or. Conversations. If you're look, I'm an introvert and I talked about it, was actually a lot of work for me to come out of my comfort zone and go have a lot of conversations, but they paid off and, you. Just it I try, to I, don't let a week go by Phi can help it but I don't have at least one really good conversation, with somebody, in my. Intended. Audience my you, know ideal customer, base just. To hear again listen.
For That relevance listen for that resonance the unmet needs the or. Just going and talking to colleagues like conversations. Are so just, rich in insights, and reminders. And so. Conversations. And curiosity, are, just ongoing tools, that. I'm always using. To, answer the, the question, that you and I both love Jenni what's next I. Love. It I love it I also, am glad you said the piece about rabbit, holes and curiosity, I hereby. Grant permission. To. Go. Follow, a curiosity that has you, cannot, tell right now what, it has to do with anything at all like, go to that curiosity, egg there's probably, some spark that just seems so far off the beaten path that. I've I found those are the ones I have the most fun following, or, it's not like what am i curious about in my business model no it's nothing I know nothing to, do with that and just. Have the permission, to say it's worth me investing, some curiosity. Time in this even, if I have no clue where it's taking me yeah. It might be an improv comedy class and, it, has no seeming, immediate application to write your business, your career or anything but, yeah and where, can people find you if they want to keep in touch and I know you have a couple different programs like a mastermind, and the courses as you mentioned so let's. Let, people know where they can find you yeah, the two places I love to interact are I, mean go to my website Jason, Van Orden com I have a newsletter I, I. Send. Out my newsletter actually quite often and then some it's, not just like your once a week newsletter, but if any of this stuff has resonated, with you today, like. When stuff sparks for me also and you might get an email a day for me over five days but that's because I've, got I'm showing my work I guess I'm freaking awesome I want to share and I don't want Tomas. Not to waste your time but you're gonna get the kind of stuff that we've been talking about today or. On. Facebook, Jason on FB, comm that'll take you to my facebook page Jason on FB, comm and that's. Another place that you can follow. Along if you're interested in the yeah the new strategy podcasts that'll be starting the mental health podcast, that'll be starting the strategy, workshop that I the. 3 B's and the 3 R's in the business alignment, that I do regularly so those are those are the two places you can follow with those kinds of things also that's so you to have a domain name that will redirect you. I. Love, it Jason. Thank you so much for this enlightening conversation and. I can't, wait for your podcast so. Thank. You thank you for being here today and sharing so much with us absolute. Pleasure I really loved this conversation, thank you Jenny. Thanks. So much for listening to this episode of the pivot podcast, make. Sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for pivot lists a curated. Twice monthly newsletter where, i share the inside, scoop on what i'm reading watching, listening, to and the, latest tools I'm geeking out on sign. Up at pivot method calm slash pivot, lists get. Show notes from this episode, at pivot method calm, slash podcast, and connect, with me on Twitter at Jenny underscore, Blake. Remember. Build, first then your courage will follow. Hasn't. It always. You.