Grit & Growth | All in the Family; Managing a Family Business for Success and Succession

Grit & Growth | All in the Family; Managing a Family Business for Success and Succession

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[Music] we are not just a family business that is by blood even the way we relate with our customers the way we relate with our suppliers the way we relate with each other we came to realize that it was a strength and not a weakness naomi kipp career is the proud ceo of a family business and she's been on quite a journey with her company i would used to tell them whatever blot us here wouldn't take us where we are going so you have to accept change and they're telling me now it's not change it's even transformation for family businesses planning for leadership change presents many challenges but could the act of family succession itself give your business the tools to reimagine its future [Music] i'm darius teeter and this is grit and growth with stanford graduate school of business the show where africa and south asia's intrepid entrepreneurs share their trials and triumphs with insights from stanford faculty and global experts on how to tackle challenges and grow your business today we meet the mother-daughter team of ceo naomi kip career and managing director annette kimite of sanaka east africa to hear about how they are facing family succession and board governance issues head on [Music] our story begins in the republic of kenya here the traditional economic bases are agriculture trade and tourism but in recent years tech manufacturing and construction industries have accelerated at the same time the threat of terrorism and insecurity has spurred the rapid growth and diversification of the private security industry and that's where family business seneca east africa got its start here's founder and ceo naomi kip career so seneca was started in year 2002 by my husband who was an ex-policeman we are in the business of ensuring that the country families and businesses are safe as we offer private security my husband started the company and by that time i was on full-time employment in government palastato i didn't join him immediately because initially it was just a side hustle and later i saw the passion and the seriousness he put in the business and after five years i resigned and i joined him full time you came onto the business within about a year of your husband starting it and then quite quickly he handed increasing authority and control over to you who else is in the business from the family i was blessed with three daughters annette is my firstborn she's in the business now as the managing director my second bond also did finance a cfa and she's also in charge of finance and my third one who is the last born she did illegal and that she also takes care of the support services in the business so all of them are working together naomi and john's three daughters all found their place within the family business and annette the oldest joins us today i'm annette committee and i'm the md of seneca east africa a woman very passionate about private security in the east african region what were the security issues like in kenya when your father started the business i do recall private security was not common back then the kenyan scenario of a security officer was probably someone who couldn't speak proper english or swahili which are the two national languages so it's just someone you get from the village and you put a couple of sweaters with a logo and that's it and then you give them instructions so yes security was not really much of a need but what happened is as a growing economy of course people started building homes there was a little bit more urbanization factories started to come up and then thefts also came in right now the biggest threats we face for example are the threats of terrorism the threats of cyber security technological threats reputational threats and risk management back then that was not the case you've grown up in the business from childhood i'm curious what are your earliest memories of it well i didn't like it to be honest uh when my father was growing up being a policeman was really cool that was like the career everyone i wanted to aspire to but by the time i was growing up being a lawyer being an engineer those were pretty cool courses but what happened is when dad started the business uh in 2002 by the time it started growing in 2004 i joined university so just to keep busy and probably not be naughty around the home that would carry me to work and then just help me help him with filing so my first encounter with the business was actually helping dad and mostly was in registry but i'm really grateful for that opportunity because i believe it's through registry through working in the file room which is not something that many people particularly family businesses would appreciate i actually learned how to do tenders for example official letters to customers appointment letters promotion letters and that's what actually changed my career [Music] in time annette progressed from administrative tasks all the way to her current role as managing director and we're going to explore that succession process later but to understand the unique dynamics at play here i wanted to speak to someone with deep knowledge from both inside and outside of family business here's stanford graduate school business lecturer peter francis my name is peter francis i am a member of a family that has a rather large family business that's in the sixth generation i ran that company as the chairman ceo for 16 years and currently i am investing in small businesses and i also teach at stanford at the business school i teach a course on family business transitions called the yin and yang of family business transitions so in africa our research has told us that something like 30 to 40 percent of the largest companies in africa are family businesses but i want to start with how would you define a family-run business as far as i'm concerned there are two key things the first is that a family needs to have sufficient strategic control if you will over that business so that they can make key decisions such as who's running the business or have very very strong input to those decisions and then the second characteristic is they have to have the intent to take their family ownership and move it from one generation to another interesting can we talk a little bit about advantages and disadvantages of being a family run business it surprises people oftentimes to hear that family businesses actually perform better than their public counterparts and it strikes me that there's really four really important things the first is what i call patient capital the median tenure of a ceo in the fortune 500 s p 500 is something around the range of five years the incentives for an individual who's in that position therefore are on a very short time frame and yet investments often pay off over the long term so what creates the incentive to pursue those things where you have to be patient about the capital but you can end up with higher annual returns because of it the second is speed of decision making oftentimes people think of family businesses potentially being slow however that doesn't have to be indeed they can make decisions extraordinarily quickly because they may have a smaller shareholder base the third is the ability to pursue unconventional strategies you'll find many family businesses over time end up in what i'm going to call a conglomerate a multi-business structure because they can mitigate some risks by investing in other places and the fourth is values driven pride of ownership if you will so that's patient capital speed of decision making unconventional strategies and values four advantages that we're going to hear play out in naomi and annette's story i'm interested to explore the the separation between the mother-daughter relationship and the boss subordinate relationship how does that work out for you annette i think with years of practice it switches automatically the minute i get into the lift in the office she becomes madam naomi and my dad even my kids call him chairman as long as they're in the office so we learned that a lot uh and then when you get into the car she can switch back to mom so you get in the elevator and now you're in a professional relationship with your mother with your siblings you go home and it's back to being family i i don't imagine that happened overnight what was the effect of working with your sisters is it was that easy was it hard is it changing over time i'm really curious i came into the business very young and despite the fact that i had gone to university i still went and did you know the very clerical rules for nearly three years grew to hr became an hr assistant became an hr manager again got hr and training manager then again became general manager again became a hr director so my role went changing and what happened is the business no longer remained a family business so as the family was growing we were hiring professionals professional accountants professional people in operations so you're not gonna call my mom and believe me when it comes to work if i don't perform she might look nice and cute right now but she can bite and she bites the same if it is myself or at the general manager who's non-family or another manager or my sisters there's no discrimination when it comes to issues of performance i think that's fascinating so part of what's going on here is that for you naomi it was important for you to treat all your staff the same and not to distinguish between family members of staff and and non-family members is that your philosophy annette joined the company even before me and as the other siblings also joined when i was there they still had to learn that there's a difference between being at home and also being in the office and like now what i'm doing with my grad children i allow them to come to the office and they know when you come to the office if there's a meeting you sit and keep quiet so i'm training them when they're still young because that is the opportunity i didn't have when i was bringing up my children it is not very easy for us even to hold our board meetings and for them to be purely business issues discussed so many times my husband has to keep on reminding us this is a board meeting no mom no dad let us be serious so it has been a journey and i say that where we have reached it is because of what we have gone through and even the trainings that we have also undertaken peter says that proactive engagement in training is key in fact although there's no one antidote to issues that arise in family businesses peter believes that many problems can be addressed through three core practices education transparency and communication it's so powerful for family members and owners to have a language to use so that they can communicate if you're having a conversation about the business at home might say you know what we're home we should be wearing our family hat not our business hat and then finally communication by that i don't mean just communicating but also learning how to communicate that is a muscle that we can strengthen in the family and so that gives people a chance to be better at this as they go forward naomi and annette have undergone training for everything from how to serve on a board to how to differentiate between the family and the business and it was during one of these coaching sessions that naomi first heard about family succession planning we have held workshops with consultants that are also experts in family businesses and i remember the first time we were told that i was like learning so many companies at the same time as the ceo and i needed to let go some of the responsibilities and the big sister was supposed to take over i saw emotions allies and my two daughters one of them was in tears you know mom you can't leave how is it going to be so emotions came and we were able to overcome that but we took some time for them even to digest and know that with or without mum there at the top they still a time had to come that i had to let go some of the responsibilities tears from the family at the idea of madame naomi leaving might sound extreme but the family had been through so much together seneca prioritized seeking expert advice because the business had been burned once before it's a time that we merged with an european company and we had an independent board and we had expatriates in the board and we were represented in so many countries in canada in europe in iran and when it came to the board we were so naive because we were just learning a small family business that now was like almost followed by the big company from iran they came in and bought a majority share you were minority owners but you had no representation on the board me annette and my husband the three of us were in the board but we were toothless it was a very painful lesson but a lesson we needed to learn all the same because when we merged we gave we didn't even sell we gave majority shareholding and we took a step back and some of us went to pursue other businesses seneca embarked on this journey because they were keen to explore new markets in kenya residential security is less profitable and late payments from state-owned companies led to cash flow issues so they figured why not find an international partner and start targeting corporate and multinational clients it started out very well we started getting now high profile clients we had expatriates working with us but what happened is not everything that works in europe is a copy paste that you can just cut it and paste it in africa and particularly in even you know even what we do in kenya is not what we do in uganda the guards in uganda we have are armed in kenya they are not armed one of the mistakes we did was as a board is we didn't ask bold questions we didn't give that governance element to be able to ask is this the right solution for this market so the european company didn't understand the local market but you didn't feel that you had the voice or the stature to stop these guys in the board meeting and say hey wait a minute this idea is not going to work in kenya we tried to highlight it we did papers we did uh comment but again what mom was mentioning was we ever did not respect our positions as directors and probably took a backseat like employees giving a report you know so the results of all this was that the business ended up being overburdened financially you have all these mega projects technology to run airports like the way it's done in europe in kenya the airport is so tiny and they didn't care for technology at that time so you've gone into heavy debt and within no time that debt caught up so we were wondering because the management accounts are saying profits yet you can tell the cash flow strain is so bad and the clients are paying on time and that was because we were recording losses these partners from europe when they realized the debt was too much and what they owed the government especially when it comes to taxes and and loans and auctioneers were coming on board they just packed their bugs literally this is a funny story but they packed their bags and resigned on an email and sold their shares at a very very minimal amount this was a make or break moment a reckoning for the family and for the business they left the company at the big debts so by the time we were coming back as a family we were coming back to a company that was supposed to be a basket case and we were supposed to be auctioned but then the family came together and we asked ourselves so many questions what was the problem and the first one was we were not pleasant we were not even serving in the board as we were just listening to the partners and just doing what they were saying we had to hire account consultants auditors and when they went through the books they said throw out this business you can't recover it and i remember one of them an international farm actually bought a ma but mama book that said how to know when to give up but i'm grateful because we had another local auditor who came and said the business looks bad but with the expertise you have you know this market come back together as a family utilize your different strengths and it's gonna be a painful six months but you can actually hack this what the consultants saw was that with their combined backgrounds chairman john from the police naomi and sales annette in strategic management and the two sisters in legal and accounting this family had the tools to turn the business around the family was the problem in terms of our governance and our lack of knowledge and their drive to be able to understand what corporate governance requires out of us but again the family spirit and the values and the passion we have for the business and our reputation is again what saved the business fast forward to who we are right now is seneca is one of the most respected security companies across east africa those family values that peter francis highlighted would prove to be the secret sauce that brought seneca back from the brink and along the way they created a company that would be worth handing down to the next generation but because of their roller coaster experience when the time came to start thinking about family succession planning naomi was a little hesitant my initial reaction was fear after the our previous experience of if i let go maybe we would fail again i was troubled a lot because i was not ready for that but by and by i could try to plan my weeks my days it was not adding up and i saw that i was not adding a lot of value to some of the companies so i had to let go two of the companies it was never taken lightly but we kept on talking about it over the dinner table and they have now come to buy in and they are now supporting the plan of me heading over the button to a net annette i'd love to hear this story from your side was it a shock to you that that your mother was thinking it was time for you to take over i'm always more comfortable as uh madam fix it you know i like fixing where there's a problem but i didn't want to take the leadership position so at this time yes when mom said we had the family business consultant and he gave us that tough news and said i've seen your qualifications i've seen your experience it's time and of course for me i wasn't no i i'm not ready for it so you doubted yourself yes i did doubt myself i'll not lie naomi did you doubt annette i didn't because i could see beyond what she she could see i knew her capacity and i knew she was equal to the task that's interesting so annette did that give you confidence that your mother believed in you no no no no not so much actually because uh i think succession is not an event it's a process so what happened is we're now supposed to be called md i actually asked that i'd be called deputy md just to warm up to the seats so for around three years i was the deputy md executing everything an md does but just wanting to hide and the reason for that is number one from an industry perspective i'm one of the youngest managing directors number two i have a really tiny frame and this is security industry most of the people running security companies are way older they are my father's age they are brigadiers majors and these are the people that i was going to meet with and then third is even for my voice i didn't have that commanding security voice so i had a bunch of excuses darius very nice excuses as to why to hide i don't know honestly those don't sound like excuses those sound like you know serious rocks and boulders that you have to push up a hill because it was not just about how you felt your self-confidence it was about how you felt you would be perceived in the market i always joke that the general manager we currently have is an amazing guy but you know he's very big and his ex-police and his ex-eid and you know he so every time we go to a meeting guys will be like hey hello mr md it's always an assumption that probably i'm his secretary because i'm a little bit tinier and then by the time i introduce myself somebody will say oh so you're the annette yeah we've heard of annette we just thought she's bigger the transition of leadership in any business affects more than just the c-suite executives and naomi knew that getting employee buy-in would be vital my leadership style and the nets are very different and i remember even the members of staff calling me and saying if you go this company is done a net is very aggressive and it is very strict and i think they were used to the way i was reading them so everybody was afraid but i think i had to let a net proof that the company also needed to change the way it was led because things were also changing and the market demands were also changing and annetto is also she's a risk taker so she could bring in so many other different things so many products and some of them are like are we ready for this but she was pushing and i could see the results they are telling me now it's not change it's even transformation with annette now in the managing director role seneca is diversifying and they've gained a new perspective on the importance of a well-functioning board the ideas come from everywhere but all these ideas have to be conceptualized and then we place together on the table the different concepts and it is the board that's now going to say out of the five ideas we felt that these two can work this one can start this year and once this one is stable now we can move on to the next one so you try to make sure that the proposals are supported by analysis to take some of the emotion out of the decisions i feel most comfortable with the project if she says yes because if i can convince the whole world but if i convince chairman and madam naomi or mom then i know i have worked my figures out has there ever been a proposal that you took to the board where it was shot down and you still are convinced that you're right of course this year is when they finally accepted a concept of diversifying to technology and risk when the numbers were shown so i'll tell you what i did wrong the last two years was i saw the dream but i didn't have the data to back it up to show that it's not just the product the cost of the expenses associated with this at this amount and guess what the profit is this i just did a small pilot uh by bringing in a few of the dogs a little bit of the technology and the bottom line really improved so i'm really excited because they didn't say no they said test this business model because we are moving from 93 percent guarding and only seven percent was other services now we are moving it to 30 percent guarding 30 technology and 30 percent risk just one year of doing that our profits grew by nearly six percent i love this story because that's what a good board should do is say this is an interesting idea but you haven't tested it go out and test it come back to us with the results and then we'll decide would you say naomi that this decrease in the guarding business and increase in risk management business and technology that could not have happened without annette's leadership in driving for change yes we were still calling ourselves the old school and we just wanted to manage the guarding business we worked in the government we have our pensions so we were not really like looking for money we were not greedy for that kind of growth when it comes to business but we have seen that through her efforts and her ambition she has really made the company now look like oh this is something that you even outlive us and and it can even grow bigger seneca is now two years into the transition and they're putting a major focus on solidifying their corporate governance for a long time we didn't understand what is manager what is director what is shareholder so when it comes to our corporate governance we engaged an an external consultant again this time and what we are working on is you know the family constitution the family office the shareholders agreement we also want to bring in advisory board members we're bringing in three this year as board advisors and then based on that is now when we move into independent directors i think because of our previous experience with our european partners we thought it's good for us to be able to engage consultants we're going to see what are the skills we are missing in the business what are the skills that we are missing in the board and how do we bring in the right people how do we induct them how do we monitor their performance we have seen where we've always gone long and we are saying if we knew what we know today five years ago we would be having even the independent boards and other boards that would be able to drive and steer the company to different levels [Music] naomi and annette's plan to first introduce advisory board members and then independent directors is what peter francis describes as a best practice there's a real concern oh gosh i let an independent director in he or she's going to take control it's going to be awful they often will go to friends to be board members because they trust them and i think that's a reasonable first step think of it as a board of advisors but not a fiduciary board i would say that at some point creating a fiduciary board especially as the businesses get somewhat larger is a hugely powerful step only one person who's actually in management i think should be on the board that's typically the ceo i would suggest at least three independent outside directors i think it's incredibly important to pick those people based on the needs of the business and this is where the power of a board comes the business roundtable i think had a terrific definition of a good director effective directors maintain an attitude of constructive skepticism they ask incisive probing questions and require accurate honest answers they act with integrity and diligence and they demonstrate a commitment to the corporation its business plans and long-term shareholder value if you could get two or three or four independent directors that fit that and you listen to them it's going to make your business better it's going to be worth it and the business will make more money naomi and annette have recognized the skill sets that the business is missing and are actively searching for independent directors that have that expertise partly due to the growth of the company and the formalization of their governance annette became extremely purposeful about her current and future role i'm a little more aggressive now with succession planning for various reasons number one is the business is expanding at a higher rate we are diversifying and even our customers are demanding different skills now so i am already working on my succession plan outside sanaka and actually outside kenya into other countries i think what we wanted to do was to say that the next successor after annette has to be a family member and my sisters yes they're good but they are still here young and then the industry experience so we had to actually be very bold and say for this next success i cannot be in the family maybe the next generation will have been nurtured but at this point we have a serious gap if a net is no longer there because mom and dad are very clear that they just want to focus on board and shareholding uh roles i would say in three years i'd be very comfortable to leave not only the general manager but a good number of managers to be able to run this business so that we focus more on what is our key strength which is entrepreneurship it's remarkable that annette is already looking ahead to when she will hand over the leadership to her general manager the first generation family succession may still be a work in progress but it seems that this delicate and lengthy process has taught a net to plan with purpose procrastination i would say has been a bit of a challenge from our side there was no deliberate plan and now we have it actually we had our our board audit uh last week on friday and you know we thought we were doing so well i was actually very eager for that meeting and when the audit was done i was surprised that we were only at five percent we are very good at preparing all the documents so we have the shareholders agreement we have the family constitution but we just never sit down and sign it and if it's not signed it's not there sometimes procrastination is actually a symbol of something else which is maybe a lack of underlying agreement particularly if somebody else is drafting all of this stuff is there something more to the procrastination than simply we just didn't get to it i think as the founders me and and john we thought that we are part of the business and what does it mean what are we heading over why why do we need to be succeeded and it became like a conversation that we really had to face and we have now like fully understood what it means uh for the business continuity but initially that is why it took so long so was it scary when you the first time you read it you said wait a minute that's not what i signed up for yes so it's like we are going to lose our positions we are going to lose our titles we are going to lose like everything we've built with our hands and it's like we could look back from where we've come from and how we were able to turn around the company and it's like is it really time for us to hand over to these girls and i think that has taken a backseat but uh it has been a process you know there's a lot of businesses and a lot of ceos and managing directors that are exactly in your position what's your message to them it's just to take a bold step and know that one day you have to leave i remember sometimes back i was overworking myself and i had a mild stroke and then i thought what if if i died what would happen to the company and i said it's better for me to prepare for this when i'm still alive so time has to come for you to let go at one time or the other and for the business continuity you have to trust and allow the children to make their own mistakes because you cannot keep on spoon feeding them all the way through i've done that for the last i think one year i've been honored of the business and i'm telling you there's a time they have lost business in the process so they have to sit back and come up their own plan on how they are going to recover the lost business if they fail they'll fail if they fall down they'll still wake up and move on with a journey annette she's saying that she's preparing her successor early enough so that she doesn't wait until as she's threatened by anything ahead it is always very good to be prepared for any eventuality so and we are now even thinking 50 years from now after the initial fear of the unknown in what sounds like many many pointed family discussions naomi has made peace with the act of handing over responsibilities annette has been with her all along and is now looking forward to taking some bold steps of her own [Music] i've been in the nest of sanaka for a long time i am now serving on other diversified boards to enrich my experience but what i would be happy and say that a second generation we impacted is when i'm able to plant another sanaka in another five countries that's when i'll say my parents started a good business and they left us to run what did we do with it we left many more businesses feeding many more families that would be the kind of legacy that i would be more proud of other than holding on to this md seat whether it's that generation 1 to generation 2 transition or somewhere further down the line peter francis suggests that it's really all about process i will say as we speak of naomi and that somehow they have done a terrific job as a family in having some really extraordinary conversations in this generation one to two transition which is so critical it is i think very common that certain human emotions rule the day so denial and conflict avoidance for example they're there in space when thinking about how you get started the founder is the key and he or she can use the universal antidotes to begin to move things along and i think starting with a vision and the vision could be as simple we really do want this to be a family business that goes through the generations and then i would say get help and get educated i do think there's a tremendous role to be played by an outside voice and that is because there are some very emotional aspects to it so it's really the process that counts not so much the content [Applause] you've been through this amazing journey with foreign buyers and then taking control back and rebuilding it what recommendations do you have for other family businesses who need to develop and implement a family succession plan succession is not one an event it is a journey it is a process the corporate governance is not just enough there are so many other tools that are needed like you need a very clear board charter that even talks about the third and fourth generation you also need a family office with a very clear family constitution you have to think of maybe another 100 or 50 years what kind of a company you'd want to see or you'd want even to leave to your children and even the country as a whole because this business does not just benefit the family alone and knowing that the children are also different like now what i'm doing with my other children because this one girl who is not really adding a lot of value i had to look at her strengths and see what else can i do for her i've opened a different business for her and she's thriving there those are really powerful messages i mean no presumption that because somebody's in your family they're the right person for the specific business and it needs really careful thought and planning and that looking back on the past few years what recommendations do you have for other businesses that are where it's still being run by the founders and are thinking about succession planning what would you advise them based on your experience as mum said make it a bold decision a bold decision to say that if you want the business to continue and how to leave you and go all the way to your great grandchildren then the process has to start today the conversation could be uncomfortable but it's a conversation that still has to be had if it's difficult for you as an individual or difficult for you as a family seek help and there are so many bodies there that are willing to help so go to school get consultants join family business associations do performance assessments have very deliberate training and induction or mentorship programs but all of it has to be very deliberate i think it's really interesting that there are resources in kenya and in africa to help you think through these issues there's associations of family businesses there are specific family business consultants so i don't know if that industry has always been around or if that's becoming a bigger opportunity for other companies in africa that you might say one or two words about how you found these resources initially we never even wanted to confess we are a family business we'd go into meetings run a contract for five years and nobody knows we are related because of that fear that people think family businesses are unprofessional so we thought we were very lonely and very few until we joined the association of family business enterprises and then we went to strathmore university and they have a family business a unit and they had courses on family businesses and then even for our board competence and even for our female leadership there's a program that is run in kenya called the female future program that really just gives you that boost of confidence and then from the association of family business enterprises we learned about it around three years ago it's a new phenomena and what we've realized is that there are so many strong businesses in kenya that are actually family businesses so what that does is that it gives you a safe space to be able to interact because family businesses are either new or learning the ropes in africa most people don't have that information naomi and annette are still on their transition journey but seneca has already been through some big changes and i wondered where do they see themselves in two years [Music] two years from now i will not be managing the business at all but i'll still sit in the boat as a director for three of the companies but for the two young ones that we started um this year and last year those ones i still have to work with them for maybe another five years that is my personal strategy for how i land with the companies but for senaca i'll have headed over the button to a net within the next two years and annette two years from now what does your day look like my day will be just scratching my head as to where is the next opportunity in another country and even in that country what particular products or services i am also very keen on serving on an international board not just for the look of it but because i've realized that the world is that global and africa does need to prepare for globalization and i would love to hone my skills in running an international brand we have 10 ambitious goals as a family and one of them is empowering a hundred thousand people in africa and one that stands out is to be an inspiration for family businesses in africa simply because there are no companies to look up to that you say you know when i grow up i want to be like that business i'd really love to be spending time talking to young businesses in africa and you know just sharing what we just shared the good the bad and the ugly of where we got it right where we got it wrong and i hope that by sharing that will be inspiring more as we come to a close on today's episode i'd like to thank naomi kip career and annette kimite for sharing their personal journeys and peter francis for his keen insights family succession planning can be a complex undertaking and it's full of emotion particularly for businesses that have had to fight for their own survival but as we have learned today the will comes from recognizing that continuity and long-term success means preparing mindfully and being ready to let go and if you do that right you'll be handing over fertile ground to grow the ideas of the next generation so it's important to keep peter's universal antidotes in mind i have those three education transparency and communication but then i don't want to forget a fourth one and that is there needs to be a sense of love maybe it's just a sense of community a sense of the tribe a sense of something that holds you together that's important as well this has been grit and growth with stanford graduate school of business and i'm your host darius teeter if you want to learn more about best practices in managing a family business and planning for family succession follow us now you'll be notified about upcoming episodes including one where i take a much deeper dive with peter francis to learn how stanford graduate school of business is partnering with entrepreneurs throughout africa and south asia head on over to the stanford seed site at seed.stanford.edu podcast lori fuller researched and developed content for this episode with additional research by jeff prickett david rosenzweig is our production coordinator and our executive producer is tiffany steves with writing and production from isabel pollard and sound design and mixing by alex bennett at lower street media thanks for joining us we'll see you next [Music] time you

2021-07-25 08:04

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