How to Stimulate Brain Waves for Healing with Toby Pasman, on The Healers Café with Dr M Manon Bolli

How to Stimulate Brain Waves for Healing with Toby Pasman, on The Healers Café with Dr M Manon Bolli

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Welcome to the Healers Café conversations on  health and healing with Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND. so welcome to the healer's café and today I have  with me Toby Passman and he is a neurophysiology   researcher who graduated from the university  of Oregon in 2018 with a bachelor's degree in   psychology and then completed his masters of  psychology through Lynn university in 2021   he has worked on the emotions and neuroplasticity  project at the brain development lab at the   university of Oregon while in undergrad and  learning eeg acquisition and artifacting so   I'm going to stop reading from here what your what  your bio is and welcome you to this and i i guess   my very first question is how did all that begin  for you what got you into this and how did you see   the the great healing potential in this study yeah  great question i'm so happy to to be on your show   um so as far as my kind of path into this field  i would say i i took a biopsychology class well   in undergrad and i found that fascinating to  just learn about how the brain actually is is   working and creating all of our thoughts  emotions beliefs you know just our whole   perception of reality um based on kind of  these all the chemical and electrical events   that are that are taking place in our nervous  systems so that kind of led me to working at at   a research lab as you were mentioning where  uh we're utilizing a technology called eeg   which stands for electroencephalography it's kind  of a mouthful but basically what that enables   us to do is to record the electrical activity  that comes from someone's brain so with a   swim cap looking device uh you were basically  able to record uh the electrical brain waves   that are coming from a bunch of different areas  of a person's brain and that was fascinating to   me just learning i i had no clue that we could  even do that but once i got involved with that   i was like you know them sort of thinking okay  was there a way to this is what we're seeing   as far as what the electrical activity of the  brain is but it it got me thinking you know is   there a way to change that electrical activity  can we modify it and the answer to that is yes   there's several technologies such as neurofeedback  or neurostimulation that can actually dramatically   shift the electrical activity of the brain  and can promote healing um better mental   health better cognitive performance uh in a  variety of different aspects of our life so   that that really kind of just set me off on that  on that journey of trying to learn as much about   these different technologies as i could and then  eventually getting into turning that into a career so but to to get excited about that like  how did that first step how did you know   one that it was out there or is it like  curiosity leading to more curiosity or was it   something in your own life or family life or  friends something that made you go i need to i   need to go deeper in this i need to check this  out like what led you there because i'm i'm   almost curious how do we end up doing what we're  doing it's a great yeah that's a great question   i think i think i was always a very like kind  of self-aware and and self-reflective kid just   growing up and and wondering why i'm thinking the  thoughts that i am and wondering why people are   behaving the way they are uh just thinking about  thinking i guess that sort of described as like   meta metacognition and i think i i was always just  that that kid who was wondering about that and   that led me in high school just to reading a lot  of like pop psychology and neuroscience books   and following that um so it kind of was one  thing one thing led to another but i just   kind of followed my curiosity i had no idea that  i'd be able to like really do anything uh in a   career sense um with this stuff i just thought it  was kind of a cool sort of hobby to learn about   how the brain works but yeah just just kind of  continuing to follow that curiosity really paid   quite a lot of dividends interesting so i'm going  to ask you a bunch of things that i've heard and   then you can tell me oh that's a myth or no that's  true and why that's true and and especially how   it can be changed right so in many many  seminars i've gone to they they show this um   iceberg and they say that's the tip of the  iceberg and there's this big you know part that   sunk the titanic that really is the cause of  you know you know the damage that is created and   so some people call that the subconscious  and it's the it appears to be this programmed   um from way back could be from different  generations even and early childhood at least till   the age of seven four to seven that's in debate i  i understand but things that we don't have time to   reflect upon and bring to consciousness and then  there's all the automatic behaviors of the body   that are all automatic and therefore are we're not  consciously thinking of breathing or digesting or   you know all of that so there's always an element  of it um when we choose to but much happens   um automatically so if first of all is that true  is that still yeah yeah that is still the the the   uh sort of this moment of science it's still  what is being seen yeah absolutely i mean and   neuroscientists have have just the more they kind  of probe into the conscious and subconscious uh   you know it it becomes more and more apparent that  you know everything is really being driven by the   subconscious by what's under the surface by these  deep-rooted thoughts and beliefs and ideas about   the world that that you know may not have you know  they didn't really come from us they may have been   instilled at a young age by parents or teachers  or society but we don't realize that that we think   that's who we are and if we don't examine those  kind of with what's going on at the subconscious   level we might not realize that that's actually  a lot of those things we kind of got programmed   um to believe because i i've also heard that  in this subconscious as far as thoughts 80   80 of our thoughts are negative and i i'm like  how can one know that to be true is it because   the chemicals that are set out from that negative  thinking can be measured or how does one actually   how can you make it one can make a claim like that  and is that accurate yeah i've heard similar sort   of statistics and i'm assuming that just from the  research that i've read it's usually kind of like   self-report kind of questionnaire is  it where unfortunately we're not at   the level of neuroscience where we can we can  examine what someone based on the the chemicals   they're producing or the electrical activity you  know i can you can sort of maybe get a sense of   their their moods or their uh tendencies towards  specific kind of emotional states but you know we   can't necessarily say we can't measure a thought  yet in terms of right that activity okay so so   i i understand that um but how does frequencies  you know when they've done that study um where   the monks were all tapped up and and they're at  a very high level of frequency and at peace and   how does that tie into neuroscience like  in how do you how do you explain that um   yeah what can be done like is part  of what the work you're doing now   therapeutically allowing people to connect  to these different frequencies is that how   we get our brains back is that how  you get the hypocampus to function   if you're using memory like yeah tell us a little  bit more about all that yeah no that's those are   all great exploration questions and and yeah i  love the the research uh a lot of it was done   i believe by a professor uh richie davidson from  the university of wisconsin who who studied kind   of the brain scans of these tibetan buddhists  meditators people met been meditating for   long periods of time and kind of examining you  know what's what's going on in their brains and   why are they you know kind of trying to figure out  their these people are so at peace with themselves   and with the world and you know experiencing these  like great transcendent states that we all kind of   want access to so his sort of area of examination  is like okay what what what's going on with the   electrical activity of these people's brains  that that are enabling that to to sort of occur   and there were some interesting  findings from that from those studies   one being that long-term meditators produce a  lot more gamma waves than the average person   and gamma waves are kind of a lesser talked  about brainwave they're they're actually the   fastest of all the brain waves and basically  neuroscientists have kind of discovered that   they play a big role in kind of our our awareness  our ability to be intently focused and actively   go about sort of solving different problems  along with sort of integrating information   coming from different areas of our awareness so  kind of increasing this this sort of awareness   is sort of reflected with that really great uh  greatly increased gamma wave activity um there's   also some uh just an uh uh anatomical differences  that that are occurring in meditators brains   so so the functionality of the brain or the  functionalities change but also the anatomy   of the brain has also changed from this long-term  meditation so they found meditators have a thicker   corpus callosum which is the sort of band of  fibers that connect the right and left hemisphere   uh hemisphere and that's been linked with a  lot of positive uh kind of an ability to to   sort of transfer information between the left and  right hemispheres of our brains a lot quicker so   that produces a lot of really beneficial results  too so there's lots of different ways to examine   it but but what's clear is that meditation really  does impact the brain in quite a profound way   and the longer that you do it and the more that  you do it the greater those results are seen to be   so i think that's the big takeaway is  is just the power of meditation there   yeah and i and there's lots of um studies like  you mentioned on that and but how does that um   the mechanism by which meditation works  and the gamma waves and whether it's   tapping into um i don't know if you know  chris duncan but he did this whole thing   on the super conscious many people talk  about that and intuition and it's a way of   putting things together pulling in information  maybe it's to do with the fact that like you're   saying left and right brain hemispheres  are firing back and forth and connecting   but when when you do work like with um like  what is the work one does with neuroscience   and how like why would a person decide oh i  i want to do this kind of work or this would   be beneficial for me or sort of what are the  questions that they would be asking themselves   if they decide okay meditation does  this but working with neuroscience does   this you know i'm not sure if my question is clear  yeah so yeah if i'm understanding you correctly   like the the neurotechnology these different  tools such as neurofeedback or neurostimulation   they're you know i would i would say kind of the  the progression of sort of meditation technology   you know in the sense that so meditation you  know they know we know alters the the brain waves   in specific ways for instance uh you and i right  now are probably producing mostly beta brain waves   uh along with the listeners just people you  know if we're just kind of actively engaged   in in you know kind of our day-to-day activities  uh thinking about things cognitively processing   we're producing mostly beta  waves now when someone meditates   and kind of turning their awareness  inward you start producing more   you drop down into producing more of these  alpha waves and alpha brain waves are   really important for kind of relaxation also  increasing uh people's ability to learn process   and recall a lot of information really quickly and  then what happens with like people who've really   been doing meditation for a while they actually  are able to sink into even deeper brainwave states   so they're they start to be able to produce  theta brain waves in their meditation sessions   and theta is uh kind of like the bridge between  the the conscious and subconscious mind so   a lot of kind of integrative experiences and  and aha moments are taking place when people   are able to sink into a theta brainwave pattern  and basically with with neurotechnologies we're   able to to kind of short circuit uh the process in  the sense that it might take a meditator you know   a long time to be able to eventually sink into  producing theta waves through their meditation   but i could put a couple of electrodes on  someone's brain and specifically stimulate a theta   frequency so then their brain is going to just  directly entrain to that frequency that's being   stimulated so it's it's you it's a similar sort of  mechanism in terms of altering brain waves and the   electrical activity both with meditation along  with kind of these newer neurotechnologies but   these different technologies can really  accelerate the process quite dramatically   so i mean that that's saying that nerve cells  that is it called that fire together no that   i forgot yeah fire together wired together yeah  that's right so basically wiring together here   you're aiming specifically at rewiring to increase  let's say like the theta wave or whatever that's   that's exactly what your what  this technology can facilitate   so give us an example of i mean we know there's  musics that bring this about but what what is the   the technology i'm just seeing this like big  thing on your head and all these electrodes   but what is the the most kind of easy popular  way available and i know there's all these uh   devices you can buy that have um buyer nailed  beats and um can you tell us a little bit about   all of that general technology sure sure so you're  you're absolutely right in the sense that they're   like neurotechnology is is becoming like more and  more prevalent and there's all sort of different   devices and it's it's difficult for people who  are interested in this sort of stuff to be able   to like figure out like what what works and  what's what's going to be helpful for them so hi i'm dr manuel belichie and i wanted to take a  moment to thank you for watching these podcasts   if you haven't subscribed please do also feel  free to leave comments and like it this way more   people get to find out about this work and about  other choices for health so i think it's really   important that that we all share this information  i have a free gift to you it's a a seven sequence   email that has tips for every day and so little  insight about how to live your life when it   comes to health and it's very much built on how i  managed to overcome stage four cancer and what it   took so i i would love you to have this and thank  you once again for listening to these podcasts i would say uh kind of answering your question  as far as kind of what the what a main sort of   popular technology would be i'd say neurofeedback  is something that's been around for for several   decades and basically what neurofeedback does is  it enables someone to rewire their brain based off   real-time feedback so for instance someone might  be wearing an eeg cap being able to measure the so   a computer is measuring the electrical brain waves  that they're producing and then they're playing   say a game like on a on the computer but they're  playing the game with their mind so in basically   you might be watching the screen and if you're  training someone to say produce more alpha waves   you're training someone to to be able to relax  and and sink into that deeper kind of alpha state   the screen would then get bigger whenever you're  producing more alpha waves that would be visual   feedback or it could also be audio feedback  where where maybe you're listening to music   that intensifies in volume when you produce more  alpha waves so that's like the positive feedback   and then when your brain say say you uh start  thinking about some specific problem and getting   back kind of into your logical mind you  usually start producing more beta waves so   then the computer measures that that you're  producing less alpha waves and takes away   that reward so then you'd see the screen shrink  shrink in size or maybe the audio gets quieter   so that's that's the feedback portion  so it's basically telling your brain   good job you're you're doing well you're  producing the desired brain waves or no   you're you're deviating now from what we want  you to do so it it basically can guide the brain   uh to produce more or less of whatever brain wave  frequency that that you're wanting to do and i   think what what's really important to mention here  is that there's so many different neurofeedback   technologies and protocols and it can be difficult  to kind of understand where to get started   i think it's it's really important that like  the the technology that is usually start uh   started with the the brain mapping that like  the q uh qeg brain mapping it's basically   quantified electroencephalography so he  touched on earlier what just a kind of regular   eeg is recording the the brain waves  and a quantified electroencephalography   basically just turns those brain waves into a  visualized representation so then you can see   you know you can see the areas of overactivity or  under activity in a specific brain wave and you   can also see where that's going on in the brain  so for instance someone who already produces a   lot of these alpha brain waves maybe they're they  have no trouble getting into these relaxed states   if you were to do a neurofeedback protocol that's  training them to produce even more alpha waves   that might not be too beneficial for them whereas  for someone who struggles with anxiety or ptsd   i think training someone to increase alpha  waves is likely to be highly beneficial   so it's it's really important to to do the initial  assessment where we can actually see every each   person's very unique uh kind of electrophysiology  and then be able to determine kind of what a good   a good protocol good neurofeedback protocol  would be for that individual so where does one   go for that kind of assessment yeah  so traditionally people would go to a   psychologist psychiatrist some neurologists use  this technology it's going to become more and more   prominent in sort of the the peak performance  or wellness space so that is something that   kind of as this technology becomes more more  affordable more people learn about it it's   going to the uses are going to start shifting but  for you know at this current moment uh if people   were wanting to to do say neurofeedback or  to get a brain map uh you'd likely find that   uh find that service at you know your local  local psychologist or psychiatrist's office   okay yeah so it needs to be done through like  a um like a living brain scan or it's through   the electrodes typically so the the brain maps are  done with the electrodes so that's where i i think   most practitioners who who utilize say  neurofeedback they often do start with   with a brain map and it's it's a very it's a it's  a simple kind of non-invasive process where you a   technician will basically put an electrode  cap on you and squirt each electrode with some   uh electro gel and kind of swirl it around and  make sure you have really good connection and   then they'll do like a 10 minute recording  with a person's eyes open and then another   10 minute recording with their eyes closed so  that yeah so that basically provides enough   data to then at that point be able to see  what's really going on in that person's brain   and then from there put together a good sort of  treatment plan based on that that person's unique   neurophysiology interesting and and what are  the links because my i run a college called   bowen college so i teach other healthcare  practitioners how to do this work and it's   it's a gentle non-invasive pain elimination  methodology that resets the body mostly   i mean through the fascia and the free neurons  but also through the parasympathetic system   because it puts people in a deep relaxation and  in that it would appear that the body just knows   what to do and it heals so um it's it's often  seen as like this is magic it's crazy but it's   and it's simple and people resist all things that  are simple that work well and don't require you   know a whole bunch of pills and and everything  but i'm i'm wondering and i've because i'm i'm   also very interested in in the mind and um and  that part of my program actually deals with our   thoughts our beliefs and just understanding all  of that that stuff but what what have you seen   with this technology that i'm not familiar with  that might explain or the correlation between pain   because that pain is very subjective um and  that's been well studied that the same sort   of findings will bring different levels of pain  experience and pain is also contextual right it   yeah there's no two exact identical people  experiencing the apparent same thing the same way   so what can you share from your background  that would impact positively or could be used   at the same time or yeah i'd love to know more  about that yeah so in in terms of the way i see   uh in my work and in in research the way brain  uh the the way pain often shows up in the brain   is through over activation of of the cingulate  and the cingulate is kind of a a structure that   kind of runs right down the midline of the brain  and it's often overactive in the beta brain wave   frequency so it's kind of indicating kind of  a hyper arousal a hyperactive nervous system   and it sounds like kind of from the technology  that you're describing that that you   utilize and your college utilizes there's a  lot of similarities in what this uh these neuro   technologies are often doing which is to kind  of calm that that fight or flight response which   is is usually kind of a beta and overproduction  of these beta brain waves especially the higher   frequency of beta brain waves that are linked  with you know anxiety racing thoughts ocd you   know pain there it's kind of just a general over  activation of the nervous system so any technology   that's whether that be massage or acupuncture or  meditation or neurofeedback they all have this   same sort of mechanism the way i see it in common  which is to to kind of quiet the the sympathetic   nervous system and activate the parasympathetic  nervous system which is enabling people's bodies   and brains to to heal and really get this the deep  relaxation that they that they need to heal that   they might not be getting if they've been just  chronically overworked and stressed out or have   you know condition like ptsd where they're sort  of reliving that trauma over and over technologies   like this can be really impactful to sort of get  people out of that over-roused agitated state yeah so it's interesting so you're seeing it like  it's another technology it's basically it like   whether it's your hands like mine it's just with  hands and it's very light touch um so different   than massage but it it stimulates and maybe that's  not the right word in this context stimulates   it seems like it's hyper but it and it's  it regularizes it's it's not sedating it's   neither one or the other it just basically allows  the the nervous system to receive the message   that it's not in fight or flight right now that  you know here we are present and so much happens   when people are in that state you know including  old memories other things that release their   emotional patterns and so i mean i i've i've  been doing that for 30 years i'm just absolutely   fascinated but i'm always you know i'm a learner  right sorry i love what else what else can we do   and so so if um if people are receiving one thing  is this like it's just another way in another door   to a similar type of end result or do you see  it differently or are there so-called exercises   to go with or things that that help patients  in this direction that reinforces this work   yeah so i guess to to answer the the sort of first  part of the question of um in terms of the way if   if i see the technology sort of differing from uh  from other ways of of kind of healing the body and   brain i would say that um the neuro modulation  sort of work that i do is is definitely more   targeted in the sense of we're taking a thorough  assessment of each of the different electrical   brain waves and seeing looking at a lot of  different metrics of kind of the connectivity   between different areas of the brain how fast  signals are getting sent from area to area measuring a lot of different variables so   you can you can really go pretty deep in sort of  brain training and really dial in exactly what   you want to enhance or diminish um so i would  i would say yeah it's it's the way i view it is   definitely a more a more targeted approach and it  can be particularly useful for people um say like   we've been talking about neurofeedback a lot that  that really kind of got its start with um uh using   it um for for children with adhd who had kind of  failed a lot of traditional stimulant medications   and they found that that neurofeedback kind of was  able to to help these kids produce more of those   really what they were training is a low  beta frequency that was really important for   attention and focus so uh you know a different  technology just some general relaxation thing   you know might be pretty similar if if someone  was also doing uh one of these neurofeedback   protocols that was also working on relaxation but  there's a lot more nuances i would say to this   based on what your what the goal is and that you  know that can differ quite quite a bit from client   to client or patient to patient well our time is  like almost up there or probably it is something   i had one more question for you though  memory um what are you seeing is the issue   it's actually a very personal question because for  some reason i'm noticing now my memory is going   it's it's very strange and it's not you know  diet it's i'm not stressed out that i'm aware   of and i'm reasonably aware what what would  one do for memory that's a great question   and it's not like it's not you know a series  of unnecessary procedures that have gotten   me there yeah so in terms of how that might  kind of show up if you know you or someone   else who is kind of reporting issues with  with memory i can't say for certain because   every person's brain will show up differently but  oftentimes what we see is under activity in the   temporal lobes and the temporal lobes are kind of  right above and behind your ears uh and those uh   those lobes are very important for memory and when  there's diminished activity whether that be from   just general aging or a blow to the head  with a concussion the temporal lobes are   super susceptible just based on their location  to to damage based on on blows to the head   in terms of ways to increase that activity in  the temporal lobes i would say you know from what   we've discussed like meditation is a great way  that just boosts overall blood flow to the brain   taking like an herb like ginkgo biloba is is a  great way to also kind of increase blood flow   and they've seen that it increases blood  flow in that specific region of the brain   and then also just kind of dialing in  on on on sleep and nutrition exercise   really all of those things are going to  to be kind of the big regulators of of   your brain's ability to to produce enough of  these neuro chemicals and electrical activity   and get enough blood flow to to perform  optimally so it's oftentimes you know kind   of really dialing in on the basics that makes  the big the biggest impacts for people great   well anyway this was very informative and yeah  thanks for sharing that because i was i realized   that yeah you could probably see it where the area  is you know so um they're very cool it's exciting   good well thank you so much and where can people  find out more about um your practice or um   or more about you if they want to reach out like  i guess underneath our talk there'll be ways to   reach uh is there anything you want to leave  with people where they can reach you also yeah   i would i would encourage people to head over to  roscoe's wetsuit neuro.com for listeners i'll just   spell that out it's r o s c o e s wetsuit w e t  s u i t neuro n e u r o dot com and you can learn   all about these different technologies there's a  lot of information on my website that thoroughly   explains the different brain waves the different  technologies to assess brain waves and then how   to actually alter those brain waves with neuro  neuromodulation technology so you can read all   about it and I'll soon be offering neuromodulation  services including neurofeedback and brain mapping   and neurostimulation along with a couple others  to clients who are interested in peak performance   in the Miami fort Lauderdale area so if you  are in that area and you're interested in   kind of seeing what your brain is doing  and getting the most out of your cognitive   performance that will be something that will be  available uh beginning in November of this year   it was a pleasure being on and thank you  so much for the opportunity to be here Thank you for joining us at the Healers  Café with Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND for   more information go to: www.DrManonBolliger.com

2021-09-19 07:17

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