David fired his boss to invest in land full-time. Here's how he did it...
It was gonna be all three of us in it at the last minute. My. Nephew pulled, out and said you know I've. Got a business venture going with just about every family member and I think I want to be able to, have. One family member that I don't have to talk business with it holidays, yeah. Hello. Everybody this is Seth Williams and, Jaron Barnes of the Ari tipster, podcast, and in today's show we're talking, with David. Van stinkiest. They. Get it right then you got it awesome, I'm proud of you said I look. As an accomplishment, of the year I just learned how to pronounce his name like three, minutes before we started recording this so pretty, proud of myself. David. He's. One of these names and faces that I, have. Continually, seen pop up and all my social media, feeds for years and. A lot of the various land, related, conversations I've. Seen around the internet, frequently. Chimes in with his thoughts and suggestions, for others about how to handle up various challenges and, situations, and so. You know I've seen his his. Name and his face around didn't. Really know a lot about his background though but a few months ago he. Started, telling me how his land business, has actually grown to the point where he's been able to quit his day job and, work his business full-time which. Is a massive. Milestone, I mean for a lot of us in the land business that's. Like I mean that's ultimately, what we want to do like how do we get to that point where I can pull the plug on my job and live, a life freedom, and then get there and he's. Sort of like walking proof that it's possible, and he's done it so he's clearly figured, a few things out and he's. Probably got some insights that are worth paying attention to so. If you are in the land business, and you want to grow to the point where you have total autonomy or. Even if you're considering, jumping. Into the land investing game or, like I guess real estate investing in general, like you're in real estate investing and you want to do. That as your full-time gig. David is an example of what's possible when. You take the business seriously and you. Decide to really run, after your your, goals of building financial, freedom so, David, welcome, to the show how you doing I'm, doing great thanks for having me Seth very, cool, so, just. To kick this off why don't you give us your background what like when and how did you first learn about the. Land flipping land investing, niche and what made you decide to give it a shot. Yeah. Great question so, I. Think, it was it back in some time in 2014. Actually. I. Had. Been. Well. You know long career before that engineering. And sales and management and. Led. Me to a point. In. 2011. Where I really, wanted to do something different. I started, studying about real estate investing, read. Rich Dad Poor Dad and that kind of gave me the bug and. So. I got started in houses I. Got. Started flipping houses. Acquired. A couple of rentals, and. So. In. 2014. The market, here especially. In Colorado was really getting tight it was a it. Was difficult to keep. Enough deal flow in the pipeline to, really feel confident, in your your. Income, and, I. Think. I saw. One. Of the Guru's doing, a podcast or, doing a, webinar. And I. I. Devoured. That bought. The course and, just. Went through it in about a weekend, and got started, right away and.
Sent. Out some mailers, to test sings and lo and behold I got some deals and, you. Know it, was it was pretty easy to. Make the transition to land what I liked about the, concept, was, creating. Cash flow through, notes but. Also the fact that you, could automate, an outsource so much of this business. One. Of the things that about. In, houses, especially in, a tight market you, know you get a call from a wholesaler, you get a lead. You. Vet, it for five minutes on the computer and then you're going to run out the door look at it and in. This market, I would, literally you. Know I was on every wholesalers, list as a fixin, flipper and I would, literally be at the property, in 45. Minutes from, the time it went out on the text message and it was gone already yeah that's crazy yeah. Discouraging, yeah. Yeah so. I. Loved. The concept of land because a it was it's. Slower moving. You. Don't have. The. Competition, like that with houses you don't have to run out and look at it and, you, know the the fact, that you can outsource it I mean I did. Close. To a hundred deals, and as you know you've. Probably very. Rarely set foot on a property, I've never set foot on a single property, and. That's what I love about us so I. Started. Up I proved and then I got a job offer. One. That was really hard to refuse, and. Based. On the situation I took. It I looked back and I said or I looked at the situation said, to, myself okay, I can go back to work in an industry I'm familiar with and. We'll, grow this land business on the side because of, the nature of the, way it works you can do that and. So. I shelled. It for about a year and a half, because. As. You know starting, a new job even if it's an industry. You're familiar with. You. Know there's a lot to learn, get up and running and things like that so I started. Back to doing it, part-time. And, you. Know it took off immediately because, I already, had the foundation and. Having. Been in the other aspects, of real estate I didn't have any qualms I didn't make me nervous to pull the trigger on a little bit of money five thousand, five thousand dollars it was easy. For me where I can see people with no experience at all it's. Like oh you. Know, they. Haven't had that experience there's a little harder for them to get rolling and to trust their gut trust, themselves, that. They're doing things right anyway. It. Took. I just kissed so my first goal was alright. I'm. Living off of my salary my first goal was, to. Do. I was. Selling some cash some terms, and. Didn't. Have unlimited resources, so I had to sell some cash, but. The goal was number. One build. The cashflow up to pay for my overhead, first. To fund my, VA. And. My subscriptions. You, know, you need a few subscriptions, online. Tools and things like that the, bare bones and and. Then to fund my mailers so. Had. The cash flow to cover my overhead, and. I'm an asset II dude when, you say you need a few subscriptions, which. Ones were they and how much did the cost for people curious, about what's involved so. Good question you, know you've got you've. Got tools, you. Know such as your marketing subscriptions. If you're if you're marketing. On the land comm sites like land. Watch land and farm now back then they weren't so expensive they've really raised their prices and those are the for anybody who isn't familiar with that those are the websites where you can list and sell, your properties, you know due diligence, stuff, your. Data services, whether, it's agent pro or data tree or CoreLogic any. Of those you. Got to pay for your data, and. Then there's there's a lot of stuff that quite. Frankly, back. Office work and things that you you've got to have a VI do, otherwise. You'll just never get it done and and the business really won't be very fun mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay so we're talking like probably. And. Actually, I can tell ya I. Should, have been the, way that you were in terms of being.
Very Open and willing, to pay for those kind of things I was like a tightwad like I had to do it all myself, no not. Yeah spending. Like two bucks was like the epitome, of evil for me so, yeah I mean I paid, a big price in, terms of like it taken me a lot longer to, do. The same number of deals and that kind of thing. So, it sounds like the price of that per month can range from. Like, would you say you're paying a few hundred dollars a month for that kind of stuff yeah I sorry, I didn't answer that part of the question yeah I mean you. Know you starting. Out it's, a couple hundred dollars a month and but, there's. It's very quickly this tool in that tool and a few years you grow a few more hours for. Your VA so you. Can you, can hit several hundred dollars a month and then you get. Up to a thousand dollars a month, pretty. Quickly and, and I would say that's a pretty good number to. Shoot for for people if you're just starting out figure hey, I. Need. To cover my overhead I'm, gonna be about a thousand, and then. Marketing. Letters. Marketing, campaigns is going to be. Go. From there so really. When I was kind of clicking. I would. Say, my. Spend, on mail plus, my overhead. Was. About two grand a month, what. Are you doing, in terms of mail. What did you start off with did you start off with postcards what, what were you and, what are you doing now so. It's funny so. Recently. I've had a you, know a transition. My. Company, mile-high. Rural land it's. I recently, took. A kind of partnership, and. Our. New company is called Liberty land sales and that was when. I stepped off from my job in November, and. So. Now we're do I have I I did. Postcards. When I first started. And. Then I moved into. A. Blind, offer letters, the two-page blind offer letter so I've kind. Of studied. Everybody, I started. With the land. Geek course and Land Academy, and then I found Seth so I've mixed. And matched a little bit of everybody's, materials. And. Then. But. More recently since we formed Liberty our volume. Have gone from my mailers at mile high were about I'm kind of averaging about 1,200, a month but by the time I scrubbed. Them down and every now and then I'd miss a month. But. Now. We're we're doing ten thousand a month we're basically sending 500, a day and. That. Is a combination, of. The. Two-page blind offer and, neutral. Offers, so. I, basically priced, a list if there's. Good data and I, price it out with. With with, blind offers in my offer column, and my VA knows all right the sectional, list is going to. Be. Blind offers, and then if, I don't have good. Easy. Quick, data where I can price it without, spending, hours and hours, then, the rest of the list doesn't get priced and it goes out in the neutral letter mm-hmm. But, we are actually looking at at, experimenting. With some postcards, again. What. Do you what do you in terms of targeting. Counties. Do. You. Spend. So when you identify accounting. That you're hitting, are. You, wide. Blanket. You know everybody, are you doing absentee, out of state and what. Exactly in, those, in what you're targeting how, many times are you hitting them before. You rotate, to a new list yeah. So, once. A year. Unless. We find a honey hole but yes I'm I'm, I'm, blanketing. The whole county. I don't discriminate, with, you, know back, tax or out-of-state, I. Understand. That that might yield you a higher yield percentage, but. In my view once, you hit a critical, mass mail is cheap and. You're. Losing your leave leaving way too many people, out. In fact. Some. Of my best sellers have been in. State. Non-tax. Deficient. You. Know. I have, a guy, I just bought three properties, from last week this is probably the the seventh.
Or, The eighth ninth and tenth property, I've bought from him he actually lives, in the county of the, properties. And. You. Know a lot of people will say well that's usually not the best. Sellers. Because, they have a little. More of emotional, attachment they're, more aware of what's going on in the area and the values but. So. I don't leave anybody out, so, I have a question, about this, is coming, and I'm really, curious to hear your take, on it because when you came. From the, house-flipping. World, right when you were doing direct mail underneath that. Hat. Very. Very, very common. To farm a particular market, right so you hit I mean I coming from wholesaling, I was told that it you, have to touch somebody, seven times before, you can even. Consider it even, come close to considering, a list exhausted, but in land it's. Never sat, right with me that, we. Live under this ideology, that you only hit. Accounting. One list one time per year I tried. To hit a list twice, and I had horrible results, so like proof, is in the pudding but I'm, just curious why, do you think that is and and you, know how, do you experimented, with hitting the list several times like diamonds. For that first first of all I have, experimented a little bit with with hitting it twice but not the whole list. What, I've done is, if. I found a spot that, was kind of a honey hole, so. Maybe it's a subdivision, or, a sub, area, within a county. That. Maybe I pulled a couple of nice deals out and I realized that hmm. I mean. I'll think of there's a particular area in southern Colorado that has, been a nice honey hole for me a couple, of them and. What. Are they zip codes nine just yeah yeah high. Demand and. And. I've. Been able to, sell. Them for really. Nice prices. So when. I got those deals done I was it was you. Know I don't know three four months probably, had passed by, the time I bought those, sold. Them and came back and reviewed it I said. You know what let's let's go back and just target, this micro, area, with, higher offers, because. I. Can. Sell them for plenty. You know I was tripling and quadrupling my, money so I might. Let's go back in there they sell fast if I double my money I'm I'm okay with that so, I fished out a couple of those little micro holes like that but, as a general practice, repeating. A hole mailer across the county I don't, typically, do that why why, do you think that in, land, that's. The case whereas I mean. I see like expert. Secrets on your shelf back there I'm sure that you and anybody, else is doing business, full-time is studying. Marketing, but. In marketing, the. General, rule of thumb is that like you need to touch your. Lists and your prospects, several times and nurture. These. These, leads right right, in land we don't like, it for whatever reason this is like the one outlier, initially, that I know of where that's just not the case and I don't understand, why, so. My thoughts on that is that. With. People selling your land it's, more it's it's out of sight out of mind it's the, people that decide to sell to you it's it's less emotional, it's not about the asset, it's about their situation.
And. They. Get some quick easy money you, know they might live out of state they might not but, they, might live two, hours away and they never go to the property, they, inherited, it mom, pop bought. It 40 years ago with dreams of building a cabin on it and you. Know 40 years ago by and Paws. Not around and MOG gets a tax bill and and she. Gets your letter. But. You. Know you could mail every six, months. But. With a house with, housing. Like. For example one of when, I was mailing two houses. Back, in you, know. 2012-2013. And, doing, a lot of pre foreclosure, stuff. There's. A big difference because there's stages, of that pre foreclosure, as you know, you. Know at first they're in denial and, then, you, know they're think, they're maybe they can they, can save it and then. Some. Get to the point where they wake up and say okay you know I'll deal with you and then there's you know certainly other situations, you, look at probate for example, that's. Another good one where it's you've, got a nurturer them for a long time. It's. It's. A it's, more about the ass set I think. But. I'm not sure you know I have the same question back to you has. You have any size death what's. That that means that's on why the land, only requires, one hit and it's not kind of thing yeah yeah, I mean kind. Of what Davis Sam it it's. Just. The people typically. Are in a different situation and, they don't need, a huge push to to, take action like really. Just need anybody. To prompt them at all and then they would move whereas with houses I don't. Know if your if, you find yourself on a, list it's. Getting hammered by different wholesalers like you, kind of realize hey I've got sort, of a hot, asset, here that people are willing to fight over and I don't. Know I mean it's a. Part. Of my brain thinks I understand, it really well I'm part of its kind of just theoretical, what I can't because, I can't understand, every person's, individual, situation, but just when. You look at it as a whole that's kind of how it seems. To work yeah, it's just weird because I feel, like wholesalers. Large, targeting, people that have the same type of motivation as people. Who sell. Land that. You know they have for, a quick cash like, we're hitting kind of the same pain points but in wholesaling, the. Rule, of thumb goes that you, want to send, the same list at least seven times but in land it's like and from. Experience I saw firsthand. That it didn't work like when I hit the list a second time it, didn't work I just I just it bothers me because, if eyes in the way of conventional, wisdom it could just be I mean, I don't know how many times you've done that it could just be that you've done that one time and that one time it didn't work that's, not necessarily conclusive, thing.
That You're saying. It's. Kind of funny to me because when I think about somebody. Who owns a house that's vacant, I mean. That. Was me that is a major, problem, like that's a huge issue I mean the problem, is falling, apart I mean people are breaking into it the grass is overgrown getting. Notices from the city like it's, a big big pain point a vacant, lot he's. Like nothing like who cares you know other than tax bill what's the big deal so, it's. Kind of seems backwards to me like you think you, know also people, think. You, know whenever you've talked, to a homeowner. Obviously. Or. You. Know for, sale by owner they, always over, value the asset they always think it's worth way more though, this, is going for, that because I saw I'm still oh and it's for sale I know all I can ask a million dollars that doesn't mean it's going from, I. Think. That's part, of it on, a lot of this land, it's it's really easy to go on and see tool, and watch or even Zillow, and say yes, that's pretty cheap you know and then you ask them, you, think a Realtors gonna be willing to waste their time on that hmm, at, that price point they, will for a house even if it's fifty. Thousand dollar house. That's. A little bit more Commission, than a ten. Or fifteen thousand dollar piece of land yeah, so. Yeah. Data. Can you give us any examples of deals you've done just we can kind of get an idea for I don't, know some, of the average deals some of the best deals you've done that kind of thing yeah. So. Wow, it's all over the board but you know kind of a kind of an average deal. That. We do that. I've done is. You, know buy for thirty five hundred and. Sell for, ten. To fifteen. Maybe. Sell that on terms for, anywhere from eighteen. To twenty-four. Twenty-five, thousand. But. You. Know I, one. Of the one of my favorite deals I ever, did was I. Actually. Mispriced. A property, way. Low, and she, accepted, it just, it was about situation. So I bought this really nice two acre parcel, for, 500. Bucks, I. Turn, around a few days sold it for 16, grand that's. When I was and, I never I never spoke. I never. Even communicated. At all, with the buyer not a text, not an email I. Woke. Up I literally they. Had seen it went, out and saw it went, on my website and checked out oh. Is. It so you're like. Your saw them on your website with a credit, card checkout thing or yeah, yeah, well it's also about that how's that system working for you what are you using to process, payments and good yeah like a button on your website or well. It. Was that way. Tell. Stripe shut, me down so. I. You. Know I'm actually a good for sex what. You just said there I think is really important because I've, had people vehemently. Deny, and say that I'm basically, say that I'm crazy or, stupid for, telling people to not use stripe. But. That, is very possible I you're, you're, technically, not. Supposed to do that and it's very easy to get by without them ever noticing, but if they do it's. Bye-bye stripe, account so just be, aware of that yeah. Yeah so I mean actually, I have, a really a pretty good take, on this subject in. Fact, I was on a, mastermind. Last Monday. Where. All these people were talking about different stuff and I just had to chime in and say all right cut. It let. Me I've been through it all let me tell you here's. That here's the scoop so I started. Out using. Simple. Money. I. Actually. At that point I don't, exactly remember how I was taking the down payment, but. Then. I really, wanted more automation, and, I. So. I went to moon clerk. I'd. Seen, what, guys like Luke Smith were doing with moon, clerk and now. They're there their foundation, is. Stripe they're merchants, and, so, but. What I really, loved about moon clerk is that it's.
One, Checkout you can set up the form put a link in your in your back-end your wordpress, they, click checkout it comes up and put their credit card information for, the down payment and or dock fee and then, it goes to set, up the recurring. Payment, and they put everything. In and, so. You don't have to and it sends them a receipt you know later on you can send, them documentation. But it's. True ecommerce. You wake up in the morning and the deal is done and the payment set up and it's, really easy. The. But, it's not a true loan processing, thing. It's it's for, you know online subscriptions. And things like that so, you, can't. Charge interest, in the true sense of that like you could you, could factor on the interests to the end of the loan and then divide that up and make that the payment and so you're getting interest but your your buyer has no way to pay down early, pay, their interest down early they don't have the same incentives, to to. Pay off more quickly, and. If. If. They do want, to make any extra payments, you got a you, you got to manually, go in there and manipulate, it so, but. Other than that great, solution, but. Then as I was really starting to crank up I had. A chargeback it was a big charge back and. You. Know I always tried to if I was going to give a customer, a refund, write, him a check so, it didn't go through the credit. Card purchasing, but they. Did it before they. Asked me they just anyway, I got a big charge back and that's what got me red, flagged and got me on the radar and I got shut down and. I even tried to go back and reopen the account under a different name and, you. Know couldn't do it mm-hmm, so how. Have you been getting your properties, sold, like. What what are the best tools that get results for you and the markets where you're working. Best. Tools that result. You. Know I use. The I use the land opcom sites, I, also, use Facebook, and, I, use Craigslist, I'm, using the. Seth. Duelin's, Juliana. I can't pronounce his name, one. Jelly, yuan I think it's his Craigslist, for land investors. Methodology. And my VA, czar running, that mm-hmm, so for certain price, points that works really well and then land calm land and farm land. Watch. Haven't. Delved much into, the, using. The sites like land. Moto and, row vacant land yet. Taking. A look at those we're actually doing, a whole, new comprehensive, marketing, plan for our new company so. We're. Going to be doing some. Some additional, paid traffic and. More. On YouTube I'm of, all of those different platforms like, what would you say is like like. Which one is number, one most responsible, for the most sales and the number two and number three like if you really, had to hone in on the 80/20. Thing like, what would you spend most of your time on I would. Say probably land, watch okay. But. It it, depends on the price point you know that lets say. Middle. To higher end you know that say maybe from. Over. Over 10 grand over 15, grand that, works really well, but, the cheaper stuff works. Really well on on, on. Craigslist. Facebook. The. Buy sell groups, it's, it's kind of a hassle but, it's. Started. To produce. Your. Lead quality there. Isn't. I mean. When. I say lead quality mean that the percentage. Of of closed, is is, is, low you get a ton of leads, it produces a lot. Of leads but. Not. As many deals and when I first started using it I thought oh this is bogus but then all of a sudden boom, boom boom I close some deals on Facebook so, I. Think. Having, the right strategy, and having VJs, monitor, it and do all the messaging, back and forth is is is.
Critical, And and to get those people in your funnel like, I was, literally. Using my personal account for, it, before. And you, know there, was a lot of messaging, back and forth which is a big time sock and then. But. There was no follow-through. Not, as much follow-through. As there, should have been where. You, get two three four questions, into there maybe they look at the property, that they, were interested, in on your website and and maybe, that wasn't the right property, for them but, you want to get those in your funnel so you can keep them in your email, feed. And. I'm, sure, I have hundreds, of leads, sitting, and facebook Messenger that have never been routed into my funnel. Yeah. Yeah, I am I was just talking to a friend. Last. Week who's, been, doing. A lot with just getting, leads. From Facebook, in the by so trade groups and Facebook marketplace, as the. Initiation, and, then he has a sequence, to nurture, them and he says that, it's. A great source for leads, in the long run but in the short term it's a lot of tire. Kickers and it, can be a little frustrating I'm curious, if, we, ever figure out how to do, bot Seth I have Facebook bots how if, we could set those up in groups, I don't know if you can but that would be epic because you could just have, a bot, going all the time that answers all the questions that. Would be cool I don't know anything about that but I know I know. There is a science behind it I'm just kind of clueless on how it all works yeah, yeah yeah, yeah I'm. With you there you know you. Can't be. An expert on everything you got to use your team you. Know, well. I wanted to go back to, moon. Clark and straight, up for a minute what. Are you doing now like we left this mess up you're, like yeah. I got. Shut down it's great if you guys see you later yeah. So. Then. I I actually. Moved. All my notes I see. Um. Simple. Money charges, a setup fee for every note and by then I had quite a few notes when I got shut off and I really didn't want to go back and pay that setup fee so, I then, I went to geek, pay and. Actually.
It's It's, been a pretty good tool for me it's. Every. Tool has its strengths, and weaknesses but, overall it's. Been a pretty good tool for me I don't have that complete automation now so I have a checkout form on my website, which. Allows them to put a down payment doc, fee or, if, they're paying cash I'll take payments, I'll take credit card payments up to ten thousand, when, they check out then my VA gets an email, and. And. Then it routes into our CRM. Creates. A sale and. Spits. Out all, the data for the contract, so the VA can, go on view, the contract, and then, she, goes to geek pay sets up the loan and emails. The client the link to enter, their, their. ACH. Checking, account information so, that's what we're using now, so. Using geek pay I'm just curious I think that there's like the. Way their pricing, structure, works is they say like up to I think 50 loans or something like that and then it's kind of ambiguous, do you happen to have over, 50 loans if, just. Curious because they'd be great just, personally, to, hear, what happens after you get 50 loans is it 50 loans Seth am i hitting the right number I don't remember I think you're right I just spent, so long since I'm looking at that pricing, yeah, I think, I think it's. Up to 50 it's it's $150. A month. Used. To be 99. And. And. I charge a $20, a month no processing, fee so. After. Seven loans well, seven and a half loans it's pure profit. It's, nice extra, revenue. To get $20 a note I'm still in the 40s so, I haven't hit that 50 threshold, and. That's. With my my. Company. With. Liberty we we haven't started our sales process yet we just started sending mail in. Mid-december. So, we are acquiring. Like. Crazy I think we bought about 15 properties so. Far and our website, is about, 80%. Done so next, week we'll start working on the sales channels, and getting, the marketing, going. But. Yeah. And then but, what I'm using as a checkout is Heartland. Payment Systems. Heartland. Has. Been really good great to work with they're not a reseller, like a stripe, or an authorized so, you're gonna pay a little bit less on your credit card fees I don't remember what the rates are. They're, one of the seven or nine direct, merchants. And. They. Have said in writing that they're cool with the land business oh really yeah, it's kind of a big deal this, is the. Heartland is that har, telia, yep. Yep, Harlan, system, I'll link to that in the show notes by the way in French yeah they've. Been great haven't. Had any issues with them they've. Integrated, nicely. Our programmers. Were able to integrate them into. Our web form in, our in our website. And and then and, then the cool thing we're doing too is we're so we're working we use land-speed gotta I gotta throw a plug in there for land speed love land speed crew yeah and. So. We al we actually have it set up so we we, create, our add in. In. In. Land speed and. We. Push it to, the to our website, goes, directly, into WordPress, if, I want to make a pricing change, I go into one of the apps in, Podio, so everything's, right there in land speed make, a change push it to the web it changes, when, somebody does the checkout all the data is linked to the web form so, they check out and. It. Creates a buyer and creats that creates a sale in. Land. Speed and so. All the data is there. Creates. A task for my VA so my VA can go in and look at it check it it, also pings, me if I want to, review. The data but, usually what she'll, do she'll go in and then. She clicks a couple of buttons and she can create the contract. And. It just, does a mail merge with all the data that's already in land-speed and then. And, then. When that's created, then that actually pings me to review it and I, can either say, oh you need to change this or change it myself or say yep it's good and then. She, uploads. It to sign now and emails. The customer for signature mm-hmm. Was, land-speed be like, did that take you awhile to figure out that system like I really get your arms around how it works I yeah, because I think and this is kind of just my own personal commentary.
I Think, it's from what I've seen it's probably, the best CRM. System for land out there but, it's. Not like a quick, easy I'm, gonna pick it up in five minutes type thing like it takes a lot of, understanding. Which is probably very easy to justify when you're at your level David, doing, so many deals and it's kind of a hindrance to not have that kind of system, what. Are your thoughts on that. Yeah. So, you. Know I, I, looked, at a lot of systems over the years and you know the nice thing is it, you've. Got the the openness to be able to customize. Things yourself. I, know. There's guys out there that are really good with automation and they can create amazing. Stuff, with with Podio but I also see them not doing any deals they're spending all their time playing, with their automation, yeah. You, know land-speed. Offers great support. Howard's fantastic. It. Gives. You a place to keep everything, but. Yeah, I mean the downside, is it's not a true. In blue. You. Know web-based. Product. That was designed from the ground up, so, it's really, nice and easy to use mm-hmm. So there is a learning curve it. Does really force you to kind of learn processes. But, because. Everything, in it steps you through the process. But, yeah I mean it's like a it's like database. Type programs, they can be a little clunky mmm. But, it's very functional mm-hmm, I I want to talk or transition, a little bit to. The. Fact that you've been able to pull the plug on your job which is a big, big milestone. That a lot of people are after and. I. Want. To just understand. Like. How. Long did it take you from the moment you decided, to do that to, actually get there and like what were some of the biggest obstacles, you had to overcome on, your journey. Yeah. So that's that's, a really great question so you know I go back to the. The. Stepping, stones of. Revenue. Targets, you. Know first of all in order, to do that it. Is a big step and it requires some confidence, and. You. Know confidence, doesn't get built overnight. You got to do the business a. Plus. B equals C and, and do your routine and just stay, at stuff, and. Gradually. Build it and then you get first. You get confidence, that hey this this kind of works let's, let's keep going hey, this this works, really well why. Am i spending all my time on this Jo B that, I I, am. Miserable ad Anna isn't, really where I consider, my future to be. And. So. Your mindset gradually, shifts, as you get more, and more confident. And. You. Know I have a family so, it, makes a little bit harder I mean. Somebody's. Young and single I tell them just don't. Bother with the job live, in your parents basement you, know go live in a trailer eat top ramen and too inefficient work 20 hours a day in two, years you'll be you'll, be sitting, pretty don't. Waste your time at a job but you, know when you're a certain point you got a family it makes a little bit more difficult, to do that so I had. A certain revenue target, I wanted Mike my, cash flow from notes to be at least where my base salary was, as a salesperson, mm-hmm, and. That. Would kind of be the the minimum step off point because I knew that pays my bills plus, a little bit of leftover. And. We. When, you say base salary, that that. That's. Not your take-home, pay from your job is it like you got a factory, and okay I got to pay taxes, from this to I got to pay health insurance like. Is that also included, in there. The. Equivalent of the net net okay no what I needed to live on. So. You. Know if somebody's thinking about that even that's what you want to factor in and have a little bit of fudge factor. So. My plan was actually and I wanted to go past that I really wanted to be. Double. That by the time when I when I actually quit, and I, actually had a plan. To work about two more years. But. I was. Miserable. And. So and I was working about 60 hours a week and outside, sales it's just that's, just the nature. Of the beast yeah and, so. Part of me said well why don't we change jobs let's, do something that pays. Less but, I stay huh you know I don't, travel and I can you know work 40, hours a week instead of a consistent, 60 70 plus travel. And and, continue, to grow this, and. Then um, so. I was at the point where I was making. Equivalent. To my base, salary take-home, okay, and, I. Just. Didn't want to do it anymore and then what really made. Me launch, was, I, started. Having discussions, with my nail partner. He. Had been a partner, with my nephew for about ten years and they, had great success, in e-commerce. And, other businesses, and whatnot and. He also, had a lot of so, there was some credibility there because, of the relationship, with my nephew and. He. Also has, a lot, of land, experience, he and she his wife's with. Him helps. In the business as well. And. We put together a really great. Plan because the. Thing is even if you get to the point where you're you're.
You're. Making. That. Equivalent. Of what you were living on you still have to fund the business over, and above that and if you want to grow it you still gotta have capital by property, of course there's capital out there to partner with people but. You. Know you still got to pay for your all your marketing and at this point you're wanting to go bigger. And better and and those, costs go up so. We. Were just able to put together a, great situation. Where. I'm. The operational, partner and, he's funding, not only the capex but also the the. Operations. And. We're. Putting it were to. Put, a card own term to it we're ten Xing it you, know this is actually I wasn't even planning on having this conversation, but, kind. Of a big a big subtopic. Of partnerships. And that kind of thing so, what. Exactly. Do. You do, in the business and what does your partner do like what what expertise, did you bring to the table and what did they bring to the table, right. So, I think, this mind might be a little, bit unique where if you had you know just to land investors, getting together but you know certainly. What I'm, doing, is I'm I'm. Basically. The operations, partner, so. What. Does that mean I. Do. Nothing. No. Well. I'm. Managing all the VA s I'm managing. Making sure you know I'm. I'm. Creating, our path our directional, path on all right what states and counties, do. We have on our roadmap, I'm, in charge of that. Breaking. Down analyzing. Data downloading. Data, and dishing. It out to the VA is to do. The mailer and doing. All the pricing, on that, I, actually have a u.s. VA now who. Is really good at doing comps, and even one of my fellow pino VA so. Managing. Those processes. So that make sure the the acquisitions. Funnel. Is going, and that, machine is running and then. Also. Now. Will be sales and marketing. Managing. It though not running it. Defining. Our roadmap and. And. Our. Processes, on how we're going to do that and and. Staying on top of that and then just of course we're reviewing, the metrics on a weekly basis with my management, with my. With. My partners. Their. Responsibilities. And ok so, really. Anything all that stuff to make sure the machine is running the, day-to-day. What. They're doing. Is they're, providing. The funding. For deals. They're. Also paying. For the overhead. The. VA cost the marketing, cost and all. Of that stuff until such. A time as the, business will be funding, it itself, mm-hmm. And our goal is is a deal a day within, about the next 90 days to be at that at, that volume. So. That's now. The other resources, that they bring though is, they. Have multiple. Companies and it's all virtual all over the place because, they have so, they've got keep. People in IT. Web design in you, know programmers. Some, are employees some are contractors, but, people that are vetted and but working with them a long time they. Also. You. Know they so they have resources like that.
Somewhat. Active. In. In. Decision, making but, I'm pretty, much running the day-to-day how. Important. Was, their involvement to your ability, to leave your job like if you never connected, with them would, you have been able to do that I. Do. Think, I would have been able to do it mmm, it, would have been a lot more it, would have been a lot more stressful I wouldn't be able to say hey I'm gonna start doing ten thousand mailers a month mm-hmm, and you. Know have all these resources to be able to execute, that mm-hmm. I'd have to just still. Slowly. Climb I would, probably have. Accepted. Some outside, capital, and partnered. With people on deals so that I could, fund the overhead, mm-hm, so it would have changed it would in a lot lot. More stressful and in this quest. To find, outside. Investments. Which you found is his partner was, it the kind of situation, where like you. Were trying to sell them on it on why you're worth investing, in or was it like they were coming to you and like hey we want to be part of what you're doing we see you're on to something, yeah. The latter it. Was the latter, it. It's, interesting because I had. Had. A, few conversations with, my nephew, and he'd, every now and then chimed in and look at what I was doing and we'd, have a phone call and, initially. He was going to be one of the partners in this. And. He, was like man I love what you're doing how do we scale it how. Do we really scale it and, so. We had some conversations, back and forth so it, was he and and his, his, partner, who's now my partner I'm. Just gonna leave, leave names out for the sake of their, privacy, and. So. We just got a conversation. Going and initially. It was both of them wanted, in because they both have some, land background, and different my, nephew's and land development and, they're various stuff he's doing a lot of VRBO. Stuff, now. It. Was gonna be all three of us and at the, last minute, my. Nephew pulled, out and said you know I've. Got a business venture going with just about every family member and I think I want to be able to, have. One family member that I don't have to talk business with it holidays, yeah, well. That's actually interesting because, like I haven't. Done a ton of partnership, partnership, stuff, but I have done a few, and they've. Never really gone, where, I wanted them to we. Didn't walk away hating, each other but like you know it. Wasn't wasn't, great like it didn't succeed so, to speak so I've. Always heard advice. Like just don't partner with family members period, or anybody, that you want to stay friends of it because you just never know where things are gonna go do. You think that's wise, advice or is that misguided, in some way. You. Know it's a hard one I've heard that too. You. Know I used to work in a family. Business with, my father, and, my brother and, our. Relationships. Improved, significantly after. We sold that company okay. Yeah so, but. I wouldn't say that that's the rule though everybody's, different I do think, though that. What. People. Tend to do if it's a friend. Or a family member is.
Get. Lazy on the contract, side, I. Think, it's even more important. To have things in writing. Because. Now you know and the contract, is I once. Heard Kathy Ireland speak, she's actually a great business person by the way not just a swimsuit model but she said this, contract, it. Gets worked on hard every, detail every jot, and tittle gets. Gets. In there, so you have a clear understanding and. Writing and then that gets put in the drawer but. If you ever need it it's. It's, it's an objective, thing now hey look. This is what we agreed to hmm, this is not personal this is not my opinion or your opinion so. Yeah, that's just my opinion, no I think that's actually really good I it's. Actually kind of a situation with, gear and when I hi him like we. Were really good friends and I was a little apprehensive, about, working. With them because I didn't want, anything, to happen to, us or us, to get mad at each other and I think of the other day like it's, always a possibility I mean it I think it's a small, possibility but, it's always there but that point you said about the, contracts, and paperwork, becoming, even more important, I think is really true. Appreciate. You sharing that yeah, if, it's cool for me to chime in there for, a minute I. Actually kind of come from the. Opposite, side where. Pretty. Much every, friend that I've had except for like one. That I can think of I in. Recent, years I've done, some type of business with and. I. Think that, if. You're going to do a partnership the, way you go about it is. Clearly. Lane expectations. From the get-go and. And. Being, very, very, good. At communicating and, and. Setting expectations and, managing, expectations well, and you. Know like for. Example me, and my wife we've. Been married almost eight years we'll be eight years in July and. We've. Worked together probably. Six. Out, of the eight years that we've been married and I, mean. Like our, hello. Talk a lot of the times have been like hey did you follow up on that lead did you do this did you do that and sometimes, you know yeah. You you, know we've. Not had how the most healthiest, healthiest. Of boundaries. But. It's. Worked, because at, the, end of the day we're, fighting, together and we're in the battle together and so, it definitely can work you just have to do it in a way where you, lay the groundwork you, lay, the foundation, very very strongly yeah. That's. Just to chime in there as well. The. The spouse is a, whole different situation, as. Far as relationship, because you're with each other all the time I know. It. Can work great I know, some some couples that they're just man they're on the same page they're they're in sync I'm sure that they have there. Marital, disagreements. You know it's you have. To just anybody being around each other that much and you're, not going to always agree in the way to do, something. You. Know I am. You know found I. Had, my, wife was working for me for a little while and but, it was I think. It was more like she was helping me even. Though I considered, her my partner, but we. Found that she. Just didn't enjoy the business that much so she doesn't work with me anymore that. Makes, sense yeah, my wife and I were actually when we started dating in college we ended up in a, class, together and in the same group we're working on some projects, but. We learned pretty early on like we actually don't work well together like, we. Both really. Just, irritated. And and. We're. Still married though and, we ended up you know a relationship grew I think we just sort of realized very, early on like that. Is not something we ought to do like we should not be. Accountable. To each other in terms of like a business, relationship where, we're working, back-to-back. In the same office all day long because just not gonna be pretty so we both just kind of understand, that we don't we don't go there yep, yep, we're on the same I'm on the same page with you that's.
Something. Something, that I was. Reading recently about, the subject of partnerships, that was really, interesting is I. Read. The author suggested. That if you do approach, a partnership, how, he. Sees, partnerships, work best is if, one, party is only a financial and, advisory. Kind, of role and then the other partner, is actually, running, the operations, day-to-day because otherwise you, have mr. money man come in and like I don't like this color blue, and like brew and everything, that this other guy has been working and you, know making, the fuss over things that don't matter so I don't know if you. Know for our listeners. Or you, know for you guys if if that's been your experience, as well but it. Might be something to consider if you have somebody where you, know somebody, has time and somebody has money that could make a good marriage as long as it's expected, that the person. That's running an operation is called shots at the end of the day I agree. With that that's how my current, situation is set up and and you know so far it's it's been. Really really good. You, know to. Some extent this kind of reminds me of when I started to get parenting, advice from other parents soon after I had. Because. Like there's, something like it's. Worth paying attention to this kind of stuff like listen to other people's opinions however, like. Every situation, is a little bit different and to, just like take. Somebody's, advice as the gospel, truth just because they happen to work with their kid does not mean it's the right answer from my kid so you sorta have to understand, what's at work at your specific. Situation absolutely. What. Is your, long-term, plan at this point I know you said your goal is to get to do in like a deal a day yeah. Where, do you see this going like five years from now we. We have a phased. Approach. And. Initially. It is to, get our, you. Know our thirty deals a month. Going. And. The. Cash, flow side of it so. We probably end up being about, 70/30. 80/20. Terms. To to cash, deals. But. You know you really can't control that in, my mind even if you intend, to do it one way or another your buyer wants to buy it this way or that way it's. Fine never going to turn down your cash you, know, and. So. And. That's with you know kind of certain. Price point properties. And we'll mix in some higher end stuff and then. Add. Add, various, strategies to, that you, know infill. Lots and and higher, end stuff. But. Really the focus is on you. Know bread and butter that's at a, little, bit higher price point than.
Where. Most of the beginners. Play, just. To kind of weed out a lot of that competition. And, whatnot and, to. Be as. Spread. Out far, and wide so we have a, diversity. Of inventory, I can. Hit a big buyers pool and, then we. We're looking at you. Know also do a. Potentially. Some funding for other investors and buying and selling notes and things like that just out. Of curiosity have you had any deals go like wrong. Like, go really, bad where you thought one thing was gonna pan out and it just went horrific, Lee in the, wrong direction. In. Houses I have, one. Really bad deal in land. I've. Not had. I. Mean. I had one deal where. It. Was, I just. Didn't I just, kind of got lazy on my due diligence because, I was only paying a thousand bucks for and I was I was, a little too flippant, a little too overconfident. Mm-hmm. And. The. Data, on the location, was. Really. Really bad and. It. Ended up being this I think was an acre, in. The, middle of a farmer's driveway, and I thought it was next, to his property on the river and. So. I actually, I think I still own it I've never done anything about it probably I'll probably just let it go on taxes. Just. A you know so, this, is what I love about this business you can royally screw up and like okay I lost a grand cost of doing business, mm-hmm well but that answer, does. Not surprise me at all but you have had it with houses, but, the ones you've had with land, first of all were as a result of poor, due diligence, which by the way I've been there totally. With you so I understand, how why that happens, yeah but yeah I mean even in the worst case scenario like I mean yet it's thanks but it's not like you'd just. Sidelines, you and you just go, homeless like it's not a disaster. It's just kind of honest Thanks, try, not to do it next time I think yeah yeah. I mean you, just you. Know you keep moving and, I mean I guess. My. Biggest, lesson. In. In, being well I mean anybody. Will tell you and being successful in anything is, stay. The course you. Know develop, a routine and, stay. The course and this is a great business for doing, that you can develop a routine and, I. Also tell pee look if. You, learned from Seth or if you learn from Jack or Steve. Or mark. Do. Exactly. What they say for your first 10 deals, you. Know just, a, plus. B equals C and and, then once you've got some some. You've developed some expertise, after 10 deals or so. Then. Tweak, this and tweak that or, marry. Two. Philosophies, proof. For, you but I. Think a lot of people get the shiny little object syndrome and I've been guilty of that oh that sounds better I'll try this way you. In, and you know you end up three feet from gold all the time yeah, yeah. I agree man I remember when I first. Took my, first course 10 years ago now and like. That, course material, was like very. Very. Very helpful and important, for the first handful, of deals I did but, like pretty. Quickly after that it became very very unimportant. Like I already I kind of figured it out like I got the foundation, going, I can. Officially start exploring. And doing my own thing but yeah it's like I think. It's super instrumental, for a lot of people just in getting. Their bearings but they don't have to stick to that if they want to try the things and see, what else works yeah. Yeah, well I mean like I mean equating. That to mailers, - yeah. You. Know people will. Back then people that are just starting and they don't have a lot of money to spend on it go back the numbers down and say well okay I should get a deal every 300 letters doesn't, mean you're going to get a deal if you only send 300 letters if you send a thousand, it's. It's like somebody. Somebody. Termed it this way I know there's a more technical term but it was the, law of they're not big enough number, you just don't have a big enough sampling, rate mm-hmm, so. And it's even comes, back to that in doing. Deals then the the reason, why, make. Up your mind okay I'm going to do exactly what the teacher said. For. Enough. Deals to where I feel okay, now, you know if you do one or two and, then you change course you're, gonna have inconsistent.
Results, Mm-hmm. Have. There been any big, surprises. For, you like when you look back to 2014. When you first got started does. Anything jump out as being like whoa I did not expect, that for better or worse that's. A good question, I haven't. Really been super. Not. Anything. Really. Flabbergasted. I haven't been super surprised by anything in the in the law in the land business, I, don't. Think I, wonder. If that's because you, had had. Experience. With houses so like he's already sort of seen, you. Know how bad it can get and yeah, hard, to be surprised after that yeah. You know and and I think you know I hear people complain about dealing. With you know they don't want to deal with terms because they didn't you know you, dealt with a couple of headaches and again. It comes back to the not big enough number if, you've, got one or two or three notes and you got a you're you're you're babysitting you, know just, stay the course and keep going it's like rental properties, you got a deal with tenants mm-hm. And. But. If you have good property, and it's the, outlook looks good and it's, a it's good it's making you money. You. Know look. Simple. Fact the life we've got to deal with people. You. Know I I, will, say I did have an interesting. Here's. Another one that that, went south and and, I don't know if it's I'm. All hugely. Surprised, but you. Know if you do enough deals this is just gonna happen it's another one of those things just part of the business but I had a property, that, I sold in terms and. The. Guy. Put. He. Dug a big hole I don't know how he got it dug and then. He got he bought some. Non-operating. Motorhome. Cheap, and had it towed out there basically. Pushed. It into the so it was like a whole level out so. That when. He pushed the motor home into it it would it would come up about 3 feet you know kind of like the wind skirts on an RV mm-hmm. And he started this little compound, on there he started just like adding, on with wood adding, on to this motorhome and he would do these YouTube, videos. As. Unbelievable. And. Anyway. All of a sudden I started getting code. Enforcement notices, and. And. Then and it's four hours away I'm not gonna go down there deal with it I think it's a property I paid, 1,200. Bucks for and I sold it to him for like. 12,000, bucks on terms. But. He paid on it for about three years so I think I'd recouped about $3,000. I. Ended. Up just walking I just let him have it but I. Actually. Had a really similar, situation. To that and. I handle it the same way where somebody parked. A 50. Year old motor. Home on my I guess, it was theirs they're buying it with self financing but you. Know park this really old motor home stop. Paying me disappeared, off the face of the earth I had already made all my money back so, I was just kind of like well I said. Worth the house I want to deal with this I'm just gonna go go right. Okay. Like I didn't lose any money I probably could have made more if I went to the motions of getting it back but it was a pretty cheap deal in the first place so yeah yeah, well this guy also became a little bit violent and threatening. So. It's, not good yeah. I. Still. Have an actually I still haven't needed it to him though I mean I'm just gonna uh it's, a it's probably going on three years so if. I'm just gonna let the county take it how. Was he threatening. You or getting violent what was he doing. It's. Been a couple of years but uh yeah it was uh you, know I was on the phone and you know screaming at me I don't, I don't remember the exact threats I. Looked. At the numbers I'm like yeah all right not worth it. And. Then she level and you can do that that's just awesome well. I mean try walking away from a rental house yeah, he can't, wait. To wrap this thing up what, is your biggest word, of advice for new investors, who, are looking to get started. My. Biggest word of advice is. Set. Goals. Where. You, can bite, the chunks off you know look at your where. Do you want your your, future to be this is a business that you can run on. The side. As much effort as you want to put into it is what you'll get out of it but. Consistency. And routine and, and, just keep doing the have, to do 's every. Day and make sure you get, those done and the rest is going to take care of itself. And and. You know don't give up just stay focused and, if, you can only do if, you've got, X. Budget, and you've, got X amount of time. Be. Consistent, with that budget in time and. And. Eventually. It's. Just it'll, keep growing yeah. It's. Awesome one, David I really really, appreciate you taking.
The Time to talk to us there's, tons. Of things to gain, from what you just talked about a lot of lessons to learn from what you've been through. Not. That you have to do this but if people. Want to check out your business, or get a hold of you or anything like that other than the re tipster, Club forum which you are a part of is there a way to people, can get ahold of you or check out what you got going on, they. Could check out our. Websites. Liberty. Sale Liberty, land sales calm, and. Mile. High rural, land calm like. So look me up on Facebook swing. Yeah. I will be, sure to link to both of those websites in the show notes by. The way this is episode number 36. So if you want to see the, numerous, links, and resources we've, talked about here check out our e tipster, dot-com forward, slash, three. Six. But, again David thanks, so much appreciate, your time hopefully we can talk again soon awesome. Enjoyed, it good to meet you guys Thanks, well, that's pretty cool what do you think Jerry yeah. Man I thought it was awesome is actually really timely cuz I been. Talking to my friend Willie who. I interviewed, on our YouTube channel we should probably get him on the podcast, he. He's. Very very interesting, and he. Was talking about moon Clark and the whole the whole shebang that we just talked about so is. Really cool yeah, I'll love again. In the show notes I'll link to the, YouTube video where Jaron interviewed will Eagle Goldberg, that was one, of the better interviews, I've seen while the cool. Stuff you guys talked about yeah, there's, a lot of fun yeah. I was, cool to talk to David finally i've just i've known. Him for years now, i, just. He's, always been super helpful and had lots of good you, know nuggets and things to share and ideas, worth chewing, on a little bit so it was just, fun to hear more about what, he's been up to and how he's gotten to where he is yeah. Man yeah, so. I'm excited I I really want to look into those bots, man, cuz, you know Tim so, for those of you who don't know right, now I'm being trained. By a Facebook. Ad expert. Named him he's, a mysterious. Friend, from Canada and. He. Actually said. That he's he. Doesn't think that in the duration of our coaching. Together that we're gonna be able to have, enough time to touch bots but he pointed me in some direction. Of some. Courses and some things that I can take later after, I've, exhausted. The, current coaching situation, so I'm I'm pretty excited that would be I don't know if you can use a facebook, bought for a Facebook group but. If you could that. Could essentially, automate.
All Of the pain. Points of dealing, with Facebook. Buy sell trade groups, so, it could be a big deal on the land business you. Know I don't. Really understand, like. I know what a bot is I encounter, them from. Time to time I'm like a reddit in I, think our forum, actually even has a bot in our tipster club. Like. If you want to learn how to use the forum it will you can ask it a question it, will just respond, to you with answers in that kind of thing but. Like yeah. I just you know it's almost like I, don't even fully understand, how that works like do you have to program. This thing and train it with the answers somehow, or does it just it, just knows what to do like I I don't get, it. Again. I don't really know either but, I know it's, just a high level you. Essentially. Put, in, the. Responses. And. You might be able to put in several different responses, based on several different like if. Sequence. One, is like prospect. Says, hey. I saw you listed this property, tell me ethos or, prospect. One, says hey. How are you you know like and we can program, it basically respond different, ways and then, it uses AI, to. Essentially. Be. A person. That's not actually a person it's a Commuter is this kind of like Siri on your, are, there to say Syria yeah but you program, it through the backend of Facebook I believe I again, this, is above my paygrade currently, but it's something that's interesting, well and that's the thing about you. Know like I've heard people talk about Syria, like it's this amazing, technology and I guess it sort of is but I gotta tell you like every. Time I summon, Syria, on my phone and ask it like, a real question, that I would actually ask a person like. It doesn't really give me an answer or like best-case, scenario it will just pull up a website and do a Google search for what I asked about it's. Like hey I know how to do a Google search what I'm asking for is an actual solution to my question, yeah. I guess what I'm saying is like I haven't that impressed with, Siri maybe I'm just asking it the wrong things or something but. I know, it's, not probably. Limited, in what they can do yeah. For, sure there is but most. Of the conversations, going by so trade groups they go hey. What's. The property what are the terms can, I go look at the property like it's the same conversation over, and over and over and over and over again so, if you kid in that type of situation then. They, said okay I'm gonna go check out the property, and then I don't know if there's a way for the bot to notify you like hey this person is checking out the property but if, there is a way to do that that could be pretty cool yeah. I mean you could even just program. The bot to say look. At the listing look, at the listing. That's. Like I've already answered any. Times over in the listing just yeah, before, you call me 100%, man, hundred percent I really. Like doing these more. Free flow things at the end you know I think, I don't know if we mentioned it before but I think the heart behind it is just for, people who want. To just get straight to the point get to the meat of the interview then they can just cut this whole section, off but for people who kind. Of want to hang out and hear a little bit more banter. Between you and me then they can and, I like that I'm much, more of a free-flowing, kind of guy and speak, to the questions move on kind of guy for sure were, there any there.
Was One question I actually came, up in my mind for, David before. We finished then I never actually asked, but I, would. I'm curious how mu