Betfair trading | Betfair betting exchange outage - Peter Webb | Bet Angel |
If you're. Interested, in learning to trade on Betfair then visit the BET Angel Academy where you have detailed, structured, Betfair, trading courses or, why not visit our website where you can download a free trial of BET angel professional, but, also visit the forum where, you can get detailed images, examples, and downloadable. Files and don't, forget to subscribe to our You Tube channel and click on the bell icon if you want notification, of new videos as they're, released. Well. That was an interesting weekend. Wasn't it this. Isn't the video that I was expecting, to put up this weekend because I have, prepped, a couple of videos that I think would, be interesting for you and I intended to upload them but. Last, night I just couldn't upload it because on. Saturday we had a big Betfair outage. And. In fact the last week that we've had on Betfair we've. Had a number of issues and if you check out the, thread, on the forum you. Can see there's a thread, that we run that basically talks about add such as people turn, up and ask if people are seeing problems and stuff like that and the thread explodes, when there's an outage. And. This was a major outage on Saturday so it, took it offline for most of the afternoon, and. Obviously that's bad news because you can't actively trade but, worse than that you can actually end up in a. Position where you have an open trade to that you can't close which is obviously a bit of a nightmare from a trading perspective. So. Yeah if there are some stats that we've. Come out with in terms of outages, and stuff which is available on the threat so I'll put in the description of. The video the threads so you can check it out and you, know if you're arriving and seeing this video at, some point in the future because. Of an outage you can start reading up or posting information on the threat from there that may be useful for you but. I think you know it's interesting because there are a few discussion, points around this and. Some things to highlight as well so. I think it was worth doing the video just to give you my thoughts and, to. Talk. To you about specifics. Around. Outages, and stuff as well so. It's. Sort of inevitable with technology, that you can I have an issue now and again and we. Work really hard with, bet angel to, make sure that that's not the software and, you. Know one of the things that's unique about that change as I'm sat here using it all of the time, the. Same as you so that's important, to me because if. You're, using it you want to know that it's going to perform exactly as you expect and. You can be pretty much assured that that's going to be the case because I'm using as well my. Balls are on the line the same as yours are as well so we want to make it to work as perfectly as possible, now. Inevitably with information. Technology and any technology at. All you, get the odd problem, now and again, so. I think that people. Do expect that there may be the other issue so you know the first thing that you have to think about is is, the worst-case scenario so when you look behind me you only see part of my trading setup I can, trade from here from my laptop which is just down here from, other devices. I've got other locations, that I can trade from in, this office and around the house, and. Also I've, got backup locations, as well so my, mobile, phone I was going to reach down here for it but it's right in front of me my. Phone acts as a backup device as well because I've got a cellular connection in, case the internet goes down so, you just have layers and layers of redundancy you, try and eliminate all of the possible errors that you could possibly have I think, I've done videos on this before and you know one of the stories that I had was one day I was in the office the, office there was a power cut so nothing worked so.
I Switched to the laptop closed my position went home it turned out that there was an outage there as well. And the broadband and nothing worked and I thought well I can't carry on like this for any period of time so. I already, had the solution which was I had a. DC. Converter in the car, so. I basically got the laptop got my phone went in the car and I drove to the nearest mobile, phone mast where. I could be assured of a very strong signal and I knew they had a generator there as well because, I've actually spoken to the engineer when he was there once at when I walked past on one of my morning walks so. Yeah that's the level you go to if you're gonna start using serious money in the market and the, bigger mistakes, that you're using the more redundancy you try and set up so, it's important, to have all of that sort of stuff in place so. Yeah I try and mitigate all of the risk that I can possibly think about and anything that I can't think about that comes out of the blue I couldn't. Think about so why worry about it yes you can't control it so, you just have to deal with what you can control, and that's important. But the important. Thing I want to make here is that you, know my, money is on this on the line the same as yours as well and that's always been importance to me and if it ever changes I will be sure to let you know but. You can tell that as well from what, happened on the day because, at 2:00 o'clock on. That particular day just after 2:00 I'll find the tweak and bring it up on here I. Spotted. That loads of football markets were. Suspended. Which is obviously not normal so. It, could be a loss of feed where, they can't get the scores or data from the matches, and. That's quite often a cause but basically you know it, got me alerted, to the fact that there could be a problem because if there was a fundamental. Issue with the exchange, and maybe, you. Know that it, could come off of that that could be one of the ways that it shows itself so, as soon as I spotted that I sent out a tweet and alerted everybody to the fact that that was happening and. Then went and posted on the forum as well and when. We post on the forum lots of people come in and discuss that because if you go oh I've got a problem with my connection, and everybody so goes well I haven't and, you know it's you yeah but, if ever the people go yet I can see that - and there is a problem then, we then up your awareness level goes up a notch so, just after 2 o'clock I was sort of you. Know thinking. That it's perhaps I need to be a little bit more careful than I normally would do and my, eyes were very firmly. Focused on any little bumps, or ripples that I could see within the market so he kept an eye on the football matches, and this, this problem was not getting resolved, so the longer that went on the, more nervous I became so around 2:30, I was having discussions, internally about you. Know do we trust this is this normal, do we think that there's a bigger issue here can we start looking really. Really seriously for this issue and then as we approached a race at Thirsk at quarter, to three. Betfair. Failed to turn the market in play and at that point that was the first moment, that I was absolutely convinced, that there was a massive issue, that was about to unfold, so. I immediately went and tweeted and if you look at the tweet it basically says, it. Follows on from the previous tree this. Is what's happening stop, everything. On the exchange do not go any further and you, know I was basically saying until I tell you to until I feel comfortable because I was not comforted at that point and I stopped at that point I wasn't going to carry on why say that I was we, were still putting orders into the market because we wanted to see how the market responded.
And. Basically. All my automation, went off at that point and. I just thought I'm not carrying on at this particular moment of time there's a serious issue here we, need to work out what's going on and. What the issue is. But. And then I mean less than 3/4, of an hour later things. Were beginning to deteriorate even more and then. The feature, race at Newbury which I was really looking forward to trade because it had about half a million in prize money as a massive, race and I typically, pull out a big result on that was, suspended, 15, 20 minutes out and never returned and then eventually the site collapsed. Into complete, chaos and, away. I went from there but. Yeah you know if, you watch my. Timeline. I, have to be actively trading but of course on a Saturday typically I'm actively trading or if not I'll let you know if I'm not and. That. You know, that. Gives you an idea as to what's going on the thread on the forum is a good place to look as well for information about what's going on because, you, know I've learnt when. There's a major outage I'll quickly scan around to see what other people are saying and typically, you hear nothing so you know. But. You know because we're active and the forum is, full of full time traders who are also active, through, one of those two sources you will figure out if there's a problem and, you can always ask it. On the on the forum thread if you think there's an issue and people will respond and, let you know if there is an issue or if you get no responses, there properly isn't an issue at all anyhow. So. Yeah you. Know it was disappointing, to see the site go down but there had been problems through, the week and I, think that that was sort of making us nervous anyway. But. When we started seeing those problems on Saturday was like oh no you know here we go again and one. Of the problems that you have with the exchange model in the way that it is at the moment is that. No. Company will, have an open-ended liability. That's. Just a, fact of things people limit their liabilities, because otherwise you. Know you legally. You just have to limit your liability some way or another you otherwise, you know there's, there's.
No Point in continuing in business if you have unlimited liability you. Know if you Limited companies and look at the government act for. Limited liability, companies and learn about the history of that you'll begin to understand that but I'm not going to go into that in a video maybe I'll do a separate video at some point but, that's investment-related but. Yeah. So when, you place a trading position in the market. You've, got this prospect, that if there is an outage you may not be able to close it and that's obviously a big issue and, you. Know there are lots of people that were outraged, by, their first stance on this but it's always been in the terms and conditions it's always been part of the risk that you accept when. Doing. This type of activity, on the market and you have to trust Betfair, to, be able to do the honorable thing or. Have, the site's maintained, in such a way that it's not going to be an issue however it is an issue and I. Have, stated my view on this before which I'll cover in a second but, don't be shocked if. Betfair, tell you that you know you had opened a position that you're going to close at some particular point in the future and they say well you. Know we, can only see that side of it and that's what starts because, that's the way that it works if, you look at my lifetime, history. With. All of the outages that I've had over the best part of 20 years which is a lot. Typically. It's averaged itself out so sometimes. The site, benefits. Me and sometimes it works against me on, Saturday, I was well prepared for it so I had very little liability, in the market anyway but, of the two bots that I was still running at that particular moment in time one. One and one lost and they more or less netted each other out that's that's more or less what's happen over a long period of time there was a funny conversation I was happening with somebody where he's saying well maybe this actually crashed more often because then it will even out a lot quicker. Which. I thought was quite funny a very, interesting logic, underway. There but, if you look at my worst ever loss it came because of a site outage I lost seven and a half grand and I'm pretty sure camera, board zero as it was at the cambridgeshire meeting which is a big, field. Handicap, it's a massive cavalry, charge down new market, I had, a big position committed, to the market and the site crashed and I couldn't exit my position and I. Was stuffed. I was gonna say another word then but I was absolutely, totally. Stuffed. And that was, intensely. Painful, however. I was still up on the, end of the week and also it, wouldn't be fair to mention my biggest loss without mentioning my biggest gain. Which was about four and a half grand but, you noticed there is a mismatch there but over time they, all sort of net each other out I've repaired a time and incidentally you'll, be interested to know that.
My Biggest, ever. Win. On any individual, market, is far in excess of four and a half grand so let's put that into context, there because, the context, is dictated, by your expectation. Of a payoff so, I you know I'm likely to get big wins and losses during an outage they average out over time but, in fact I'm still playing with something, that's manageable, but. Nonetheless you know what, should bet fair's policy, B and I. Have a. View. That I've held right from day one on this that. Is that if, you turn a trade into a bet you are not paying a lot more Commission on it and therefore, Betfair. Benefit. When there is an outage they. Benefit much more winners now touch than when there isn't because if you are able to trade out of the position you pay much less commission, and. Therefore. You. Know it's sort of pays for Betfair to have an outage now I'm not for a minute suggesting, that the outages are done on purpose I'm sure somebody will suggest that but. I. Think there's an unfair. Liability. On people, using the exchange it is causing an exchange, by. The way, when. There's, an outage so, why not remove, that incentive. Or that, reward. For, being an outage and turn it into a punishment to improve. Or. Reduce. The likelihood that there, will be an outage and prove the stability. Of the exchange because I think the, wait should happen when there's an outage is you avoid, all affected, markets, all bets all trades, everything, gets, voided, because. If you void absolutely, everything nobody, gains there are no exceptional, winners no exceptional, losers Betfair don't get paid massive. Incentive, to, improve stability so. That's my view is that you should void all markets. Because. Then, nobody. Gets any payoff there is no incentive to, maintain. Bad service, there's a huge incentive to. Improve the surface and get this site running up and stable as quickly as possible so, yeah. You know I think that that's the case you know you you often see people saying oh let's let's boycott them for a week or whatever but the problem with that is if you walk away from the table somebody, else will sit at your table it's like a busy restaurant people are fighting for seats and if. You decide to get up and walk away in protest it's. Gonna have no particular impact, but. You know when. When. These situations occur, there. Has to be I think some sort of form of punishment, as it were to, improve future behavior to focus. Minds on making sure that it doesn't go wrong. Again at some party coins so I think voiding markets is one thing I think if you move your business elsewhere. Temporarily. That's probably not going to work because other people will just come in and fill the gap effectively. That you left behind however. If you see what I did on Saturday. This. Is the response that you should have I, immediately. Turned over to about deck and started trading on there, so. As you know I trade on Betfair and bet dad can I have done for a number of years I think it's important, to do that because I think that you. Know first of all there is an opportunity on both, so you may as well take advantage of it but also you. Know I want to show that that is possible, that you can do it and, that it's only.
Imagination. That separates, you from having a successful strategies. Trading, is sort. Of a combination. Of, strategies and you decide which one to deploy so, wind yourself back to when I first joined Betfair, there, was no liquidity there was nothing, there at all the very first market ever was about 1,300. Pounds in turnover, most of that was people that bet fair but everything else was absolutely, devoid of liquidity. In, play markets, never had, even been invented so there was nothing there and then, look where we are now so everything, starts, from a low level and then gradually builds and gradually building gets bigger and bigger again, and. It's the same with everything else now, I suppose. I was somewhat fortunate that I was around in the era of low, liquidity or no liquidity, because. I had to figure out what to do so, if. I when. Betfair goes down you. See the volume drop off on a exchanges some more than others, but, the reason that I like switching Tibet deck is that bed stag have, a relay a commercial relationship with Oncourse bookmakers, so bookmakers, hedge on course in Tibet, stag so, it's not as though a switch has being turned off and everything vanishes, you. Tend to find that Betfair. Is linked to other exchanges, and bookmakers, they take their pricing from Betfair and as, a consequence. Those. Exchanges, mimic the bet fair prices, and the same sort of activity, however. There is a disconnect, between that, what. Occurs on on bets Decker because, they've got this on course market, so it up and all, of the bookmakers, who are on coarser pricing, up the market and then, actually. Hedging, their position onto the exchange, well I say that some some of them hedge, permanently, some of them are real proper old traditional, bookmakers, who will have an opinion on a market they would have priced it done their homework and, we'll be offering prices, out and just taking money but. Nonetheless there is that stream that goes in to bet stag and you. Know look at what happens to me on the Saturday I wanted. To demonstrate that it was perfectly, possible to trade on that deck even when there was a drop in liquidity after, bed preparer went off you, know you'll probably find it was BOTS are being or doing other things related to that but, if you, look at many many years ago it was impossible to do that now as you can see from the pianos that I posted on Saturday posted up - one was manual one was automated. They. Both got similar totals, it's, perfectly possible all that I did was just turn my attention change. The strategy that I was using and, off I went and I, think that that's more terrifying. To an. Established, and. It get exchanged that you can do that than, just walking away from the table so you, know I've always said that competition, is healthy and it's useful to have active, competitors, competing for your business and I think the more that occurs the. More interesting, the market is and the better you and I will be treated and the, better deal that were guess in all of those sort of things so it's just something that's natural, for me to do I don't think there's really any excuse, that you can have for not giving it a try ok it's different it feels different but. Nonetheless. You. Know that will teach you things about the market that you probably don't know if you can't trade in a liquid market or you're not aware of how to do that if you, put, that into your toolkit, then, it opens up a whole range of other markets for you as well because there are illiquid markets, on Betfair, I trade, those as well so, yeah having all of that skill set is.
Quite Useful on. Itself, and okay you're not going to do particularly well to start with but if you if you work hard at, it then you'll get better and better and then really end up in a place similar to where I am which is I can just switch modes I can, trade both exchanges, I can trade either or if one of them is down it, makes no difference to me trading. Strategies, work your. Role as a trader is to slide the strategy that you think is appropriate into the market and then maximize that opportunity from, there so. Yeah you know I've. Sort of meanders, across many different topics here you, know if you've got views on the outage or what you think should be done and what bet. There should do, and. Stuff, like that then comment below let me know what your thoughts are but those. Are my thoughts I think that when. There is an outage on an exchange, it's. Not unreasonable to expect that there will be one now and again we don't want them frequently and certainly. I think an incentive, to improve, the stability of the exchange would would, be for there to be a financial punishment. If the. Exchange started, to fall over not a reward for when they exchanged fell over, make. Sure that you're prepared as best as you possibly can but. Also you. Know take. A leaf out of my book. You. Know learn to, trade other markets, in different ways with. Different levels of liquidity with, different strategies because it works I've just shown you that it works and, what. You know years ago there was nothing there, it's. A lot busier now than it ever has been and. I expect that to continue to, improve so. There, are opportunities there I summarized. It on a tweet where I sort of said you know negative, Minds find problems, positive, Minds find opportunities, I've mentioned, this in videos before but it's true you know depending upon how you frame or look at, a situation depends. What you'll get out of it but. Anyhow there are all my thoughts about what happened this weekend, new videos will be up again, after. This particular issue but. If you've got some views on it then comment. Below or. Come in to the forum and join, the chat that's going on there because we're having a very broad ranging, discussion there, about, what. We, think about it and people are analyzing, the, details, of the out as well to figure out you know what, we're actually looking at is it getting better worse or the frequency of them and stuff like that because. I will go to that phone and present them where that information I spoke to Betfair during. The outage on Saturday and. I'll follow up with them this week and, we're gonna get some data and throw it at them and see what they say I think their PR is not very good I think, they could do a much better job of dealing with these sort of situations and explaining them that's one of the problems that people have as nobody understands, why they're happening but. Yeah those are my thoughts give me your thoughts below, and, hopefully we can have a nice period now where, we have no issues whatsoever, but yeah give me a thoughts let me know what, your views are on better, outages what you do about them and what you think Betfair should do about them. You.