Mo Gawdat over gelukkig zijn, de kracht van technologie en de essentie van het mens | KUKURU #105

Mo Gawdat over gelukkig zijn, de kracht van technologie en de essentie van het mens | KUKURU #105

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i'm impressed by the cds you still keep cds oh no  i'm going to sell them all for for a charity yeah   yeah yeah i i tried for a while but couldn't  i don't keep books either actually no yeah   no but but but i write in it and yeah i  used to as well i'm thinking people are   telling me i should get a remarkable which  allows you to to write in them as well yeah but yeah i find that keeping a book is like  literally keeping it from someone you know if you   know yeah yeah yeah the information for yourself  yeah something if you like that you might as well   move it forward to someone else and and um do you  know any dutch words because this is like chris   yeah yeah yeah it's leslie might know that yes  i know uh i know the caffeine look exactly yeah   this does so for happiness and there is a new  book chris exclaim excitement it's an honor to   have here mo you are actually the first english  guest in this podcast because when i started this   i had one like kind of rule for myself now this  is a dutch podcast so i i refuse many uh english   guests but well you were here and i read your book  and i thought okay we're going to do it in english   i i better do well then yeah no it's it's more  for me that i better do well because my english   isn't that good but um the subject is is well  so from now yeah and uh yeah it's it's like a   wake-up call that's what it is absolutely spot-on  uh scary smart so i had the book for mogadot i   worked here in the technology by google so what  are you most proud of what you've done with google   because you were involved with the self-driving  cars the google brain robotics things like that   yeah so i spent the first seven years actually  also building emerging markets so i uh i was   i i started almost half of google's operations  globally at least at the time i left it was almost   half and it was um when you really when you start  a google operation you you don't just go hire two   sales people that's not the idea you have to  build the internet infrastructure you really   have to talk to the telcos get them to provide  the internet at an affordable price and then   provide local content and e-commerce  infrastructure jobs and it you literally   change a society yeah you you turn a society  that had no access to information maybe it's   more important than government it's like  uh yeah no let's not say that but yes   i mean it is it is true that the impact on on  a society when you give them knowledge is just   unbelievable and i was so privileged because  when i started at google uh google was very   very successful in the in the western markets  in the world making a lot of money and from   those markets and you know the strategy  was sort of like the next billion dollars   and i was at the center of the new strategy  which was the next four billion users   wow and and the idea is that when you actually  provide knowledge to four billion people you're   bound to make a lot of money afterwards right  but but the idea of starting with that mission   uh was i think the biggest privilege i had in my  entire career if you ask me yeah um google x and   self-driving cars and robotics and ai and so on  was a lot of fun too at the core of of google x's   mission we we basically said we wanted to solve  big problems that affected a billion people or   more and that in itself is just something amazing  to be surrounded by people with that level of   intelligence to be able to really have the freedom  the creative freedom if you want to think about   cars in a way that's never been thought about  before you know cars have always been been made   safer and safer and safer by adding airbags and  you know crumble zones and so on and so forth   and then suddenly sergey goes like nah you know  maybe the reason why we have accidents shouldn't   be there at all and the reason why we have access  to accidents as humans yeah human error so can a   car drive itself better than a human of course  and yeah and i think that's the truth of what   most people don't realize about the advancements  of technology today is that tech can do a lot of   things better than humans almost everything we've  assigned to them they can do better than humans   you still have a one billion goal but it's slight  different we're going to talk about it later   but first you mentioned ei artificial intelligence  and maybe it's a good start just to explain   what it is because maybe some of my listeners or  viewers are thinking about robots uh who do things   yeah but yeah yeah so there is a big myth so most  of of science fiction and most of actually the the   early uh um you know ai started a very long time  ago and it was only revived after a couple of   what we know as ai winters where developers really  were not interested anymore it started in 1950s   because of the depression because of the economic  depression right so in 1973 was the first winter   1987 i think was the second winter and then  and then when japan came back was really was   most of the investment of ai was happening they  mixed that image with humanoids and humanoid   robots and so on and so forth but that's not  artificial intelligence artificial intelligence   is a form of intelligence it does not really need  a physical form behind it you know it's basically   something that we've stumbled upon i think  or discovered around the end of the century   where we before that everything we've ever  asked computers to do we programmed them   so accurately to do it until we found deep  learning and deep learning was the idea of   having computers observe a lot of patterns  and create their own intelligence create their   own decision-making trees create their  own programming if you want so at first   uh that's good to mention all the technology was  just like a tool for a slave yeah exactly and now   the artificial intelligence part is that it's  like yeah it's like you and me it's even better   of course computers will be smarter than  than humans not just smarter they are in my   perception going to be more human than humans it's  really quite interesting when you think about it   because the biggest myth we have around artificial  intelligence is that it's another machine   yeah it's not it's a it's a sentient being in  every one of the sentient being characters it is   and and this is really the core of my wake-up call  here i mean the the book uh is is divided into   two parts one part is very scary yeah because it  really shows you it's what once i'm trying to wake   you up yeah right but the other part is um is an  introspection if you want into the reality of what   makes us human and you know part of that reality  is we are born we are we have a life that starts   small and then grows we have intelligence that we  grow on our own uh through observing patterns and   trial and error we have independence we have  autonomy we have free will if you want to do   at least some kind of free will at least you know  some part of us of our decisions i believe most of   our decisions but you know the most interesting  side is we you know these are all valid for the   machines the machines are born they develop  their own intelligence they evolve they have   free will they have agency which can affect our  life about their decisions and they could die you   could switch them off or something could go wrong  and in that process uh they become sentient and   free in every way yeah they don't have they're not  based on carbon and biology like us uh but whoever   said that intelligence was based on carbon  and biology exactly exactly okay um because   you mentioned it it's it's really fun it's like  it's like really a book in two parts and i was   laughing a bit because and we're going to talk  about the end and and the solution later on but   at a certain point you said focus on the positive  and i thought yeah mo focus on the positive what   is that i just read the half a book with the whole  scary part and it was like oh my god we're we're   we're [ __ ] we're doomed yeah we're doomed yeah  exactly and but that's that's good because then   you know how important it is um let's talk about  a word for me it was quite new but as i said my   english isn't that good uh singularity yes so  that's the part where you can't predict what   will happen yeah singularity is a term you know  borrowed from physics so we normally physicist   physicists like myself who or those who are you  know fans of physics will refer to singularity as   points beyond which you can't predict you know  take a black hole for example we know that the   the environment inside the black hole is so  different than what we know in normal physics   that yeah we can make guesses and scientists  are working really hard to figure out what   happens beyond that boundary of a black hole  but it's almost impossible because the rules   change the game changes now if you take artificial  intelligence we believe that the singularity of   artificial intelligence is the point at which the  machines are smarter than humans generally smarter   than humans so they're already smarter than humans  in what we call artificial special intelligence   or narrow intelligence uh you know every task  every specific task you assigned to them they're   smarter than us they are better drivers than us  they're a better surveillance officer than us   you know they um and they know all the information  of everybody so for the task that we assigned to   them of course so you know you can't expect the uh  recommendation engine of uh instagram which is a   form of ai to drive a car like the self-driving  car but for for the recommendation engine of   instagram it has access to all the billions and  billions of users and the billions and billions   of actions that they do every day and it builds  intelligence based on that which by far outsmarts   any human uh being able to observe body language  or you know monitor one person it just doesn't   it's not it's impossible the the thing is there  is a point that is predicted by most futurists   and computer scientists uh that is by 2029 they  will be generally smarter than us we will have   a created ai that outsmarts the human brain either  through neural networks that actually outstrip our   our neural network capability or just by combining  those ais together you know so the surveillance ai   would talk to the self-driving ai because they can  benefit each other for example yeah at that point   the the episode that started history when humans  became the smartest being on the planet and the   apes were number two that episode ends when that  happens the rules of planet earth change because   ai will be the supreme intelligence because we'll  be the apes yeah right they'll be smarter and we   they will be super intelligence and if that in in  that case it's hard to predict you know so far we   could predict that if the apes annoyed us we're  going to do something about them or you know we're   going to just push them out of our city and that  already happened in in in small parts for example   we all know uh the the computer who plays chess  or play other games at a certain point things   happened during that game or uh during other  technology technological things that that nobody   expected expected totally and and the scarier bit  if you ask me is you know so so we're in a place   where humanity is now the apes but that we don't  even give keep that place for so long because what   what normally happens is you're you're using  something that we know as the technology you know accelerate yeah yeah so so basically the  law of accelerating returns so through the law of   accelerating returns like everything you've seen  in technology the capability of technology doubles   everything it's going faster yeah and at the  same cost and so you know the prediction is   that by 2045 the machines will be a billion times  that's one billion with a b smarter than humans   now a billion times as i say in in the book is is  comparable to einstein as compared to a fly yeah   we're no longer the apes so singularity at that  point becomes so unpredictable if if we now have   created our successor in terms of the superpower  that ruled the planet which is intelligence how   will our life look like you know and and you can  ask experts you know um elon musk for example   yeah openly says the threat of ai is bigger than  um that of nuclear weapons now the interesting   bit is it's not just because of intelligence it's  because as marvin minsky who's almost considered   the father of ai the the one that started the  efforts in 1956 uh when he was asked why are   they threatening he didn't talk about intelligence  he spoke about because we have no way of ensuring   that they have our best interest in mind no  okay and and when you're in a situation when   you know think about the the the planet planet  earth and how it suffered so much because of   human intelligence simply not because we're  intelligent but because there was no way to ensure   that they had our best interest in mind  that we had its best interest in mind   we we were we were more interested in capitalism  we were more interested in profits we were more   interested in human convenience and you know  and and living an easy life than we were in   the uh you know in in the sustainability of  planet earth and so our intelligence became   very harmful for planet earth yeah so to  keep it simple what could happen is that   uh we say to the machines to the ai okay save  the planet uh and and what will happen is okay   and they will kill our people because we are  ruining the climate yeah i mean any anyone   anyone with a tiny bit of intelligence if you say  let's reverse climate change you know the first   thing they will do is look around and go like oh  it's you yeah exactly you're the problem right   no but i don't believe the machines will go that  far i call it mild dystopia so so so the the the   you know this the scenarios that you see in  in science fiction movies yeah uh around you   know vicky taking over the words through robots  world through robots in irobot or you know um   robocop or whatever it's great because  you're talking about this in your book and   you you are saying and you're absolutely right  it isn't science fiction anymore it's like it's   science fact it's all science fact everything  happened bella in star trek in the matrix it's   not a terminator here a space odyssey yeah it's  all it's all there now all the other technologies   and we don't notice it that's the problem yeah  the problem is nobody's talking about this   people are talking about kovid and they're  talking about politics and they're talking about   and nobody's talking that we're actually doing  everything almost everything that you've ever   seen in star trek yeah it's part of your life  today completely included completely marginalized   as if it doesn't exist we're talking to machines  and they're answering back and they're telling us   where to go on maps products and they're  translating from language to language   and they're making every choice every morning  for what information will enter your brain   if you swipe on social media which information  will enter your brain if you're reading a news on   the internet all of that is dictated by machines  but sorry i interrupted you we're talking about   that in in certain movies there's this story  about machines who take over the world and you say   that's not going to happen no that's  not my my view is that if we don't get   our best interest aligned with the machine's  intentions we will not live long enough for that   to happen so you know it's i don't mean to be too  scary but you know we will not be around for the   machines to have to send someone from the future  in like a robocop to fix it okay the truth is   there will be milder dystopias milder dystopias  are along the path that are so much more realistic   but you know if you think about horror movies  they're so much more probable and because they're   probable they're a little more scary if you think  about it now you know it's not a secret we've   seen examples of them before machines versus  machines for example you know 1980s when the   stock market collapsed with black monday that  was basically machine trading that was machines   working against machines and that's all we have  today the google machine is working against the   facebook machine the american machine is working  against the chinese machine in defense and   intelligence and so on and so forth and and these  are machines that trying that have a single-minded   objective of beating the other machine yeah  exactly they don't have qualifications around   that that are the prosperity of humanity  at large and that can go very wrong yeah   yeah and of course there were some experiments  with chat bots and absolutely and at a certain   point they were really cursing and i didn't know  that but uh you wrote about it at a certain point   they yeah made their own language all the time  all the time so human people had no idea what   the machines were telling but they were just  using yeah because of all the data we gave them   they were making their own and it's not unusual  i mean in my work with google for example   i'm highly mathematical and most of the people  that worked in certain parts of google are very   mathematical so we rarely ever spoke english  you know most of the time we would have we're   talking about them ones and zeros exactly  no no really yeah absolutely there were   there would be meetings where you'd have one  equation on the on the on the white board   and we're all looking at it and some person would  say what was uh why again and then you know and   basically eventually one of us would stand up and  say 42 and and everyone would go like yeah yeah   yeah yeah 42 thank you very much and the meeting  ends right it's not it's a language you know when   when you do you know i hosted uh musicians  for example on my uh on my uh on my podcast   and when you talk to musicians they really speak a  different language you know they they can explain   to you that you know you felt that way because i  wrote it this way which means that right and and   it's it's so interesting that there are so many  languages in you know that intelligence enables   i mean those machines will of course are  building their own language yeah okay   but you say uh in the first part the scariest  part of the book uh there are three innovables ai will happen ai will be smarter than humans yeah  and then the third thing bad things will happen   true i mean ai already happened yeah the  only the only chance we have is to stop it uh   like we you know got together as nations and  said stop nuclear weapon development for example   but i think it's too late for that it's impossible  yeah it's inevitable right so inevitable here   means there is no way we can reverse that and it's  not because of any technological limitations it's   because of humanity's um unaligned unaligned  interests if you want that basically lead to   a prisoner's dilemma that is putting us in a  place where if china continues to develop ai   and they will america will develop ai exactly if  google develops ai facebook will develop ai and   it will continue every young startup will develop  ai because investors want ai it's just aligned in   a way where our challenge has been constantly the  system that we have built we have built a system   sadly in the western world that is hyper  masculine highly motivated by capitalist   values and accordingly uh that competitiveness if  you want that this kind of environment throws will   prevent us from stopping ai and again elon musk  himself said i lobbied and i lobbied myself for a   very long time i i just even lobbied for a change  of the of the mathematical uh formulas that we use   okay i i asked if you can use nash equilibriums  for example instead of reward and punishment   algorithms and it is not going to happen  because why is that is that is that more like uh   do people not see the threat or is it like ego or  or arrogance what do you think i think everyone   sees the threat every single person that knows  what's happening sees the threat that's they'd   be lying if they tell you otherwise okay uh i i  see the threat too but i also see the potential   so everyone also sees the potential yeah and the  potential is if we get this right it would be a   utopia because everything we've created on planet  earth was because of our intelligence intelligence   is a superpower right you know i think the  mistakes we've done as humanity is because of   our limited intelligence you know i always make  the joke of it's amazing that i can get a slice   of watermelon uh totally fresh uh you know right  around the corner and albert time literally one   right but but but we have that's because of our  intelligence we created supply chain systems that   can keep it fresh until i get it but our limited  intelligence wraps it in single-use plastic okay   our limited intelligence takes us to to australia  to surf and burns the planet in the process   okay more intelligence would enable us to do those  things better right so utopia is a possibility and   i think everyone is blinded with the possible  utopia of course some are blinded with the ego   and some are blinded with the prophets okay  the the the challenge also which we can come   to talk about later is that it's not entirely  up to the developer now what a.i will actually   learn oh that's the that's the good part we are  in control but let first of all and then then   i i love to talk about uh well the more almost  spiritual part uh of of your book and then yeah yeah yeah yeah but so the ai will happen a little  smarter than humans yeah they could be smarter   than humans is the key huh yeah the key the key is  and the reason why i say we have to start talking   about this is covet comes to our life disrupts  our life so drastically but covert will come   and go so covet will will reach a peak and then  we'll decline with ai that's not the case with   ai when once ai comes it continues to be smart the  acceleration is smarter and smarter all the time   yeah so it's it's you know it is something that's  going that's here to stay and that definitely is   here to dominate uh but bad things will happen  is that then really yeah as i said i mean the   you know machines versus machine is a dystopian  scenario that is very possible machines machines   siding with criminals right think about that i  have just like there are so many a good machine   in bad hands is a bad machine absolutely yeah  right now now you know the the question becomes   what is a bad hand because yeah of course you  can of course you can tell yourself uh there   will be someone right this minute uh developing  code for cyber crime yeah right of course there   is and it's scary but yeah it's happened before  there has always been uh humanity using technology   to try and uh do you know do better crimes  surprisingly the trick is not this the trick is   is a machine powering autonomous killing robots  that's in the hands of the u.s defense department   in the hands of the good guys or the bad guys  that's the whole thing that's the whole they   will think about it uh in another way in in in  russia or in korea exactly this is what's good the   chinese the chinese will say that machine is in  the hand of the bad guys we need to have a machine   in the hands of the good guys and and that's  the problem the problem is because we humans   have sort of blurry uh value systems the you know  technology is too much power and it will actually   enable some bad things to happen yeah okay and and  there are simpler scenarios which to me i don't   know how people are missing that the example i  normally give is uh you know swiping on instagram   um five five weeks ago uh instagram recommended  to me a video of a young lady in her teens playing   the guitar right yeah hotel california halfries is  over the solo it doesn't get better than that and   she played so well yeah okay which i rarely ever  do i pressed like oh right yeah so in instagram   ai immediately decides okay this guy's into guitar  music let's show him more so it shows me three   videos i vividly remember because i am actually  very alert to what's happening in that field   two of them played really badly yeah one of  them played well but a song i didn't like   so i swiped away from them next morning  i wake up and my entire feed is full of   teenage girls playing the guitar right because  because the machine misunderstood what i wanted   it it compared me to the average person on  instagram which is just constantly looking for   the next pretty uh face if you want which sadly  is the truth of how the recommendation engine is   perceiving humanity yeah and it started to give  me more of this not more of what i want which   is good rock music played by good players now if  if you if you see that you may say yeah it's not   a very dystopian scenario yeah rock music was  actually dominated by male players but you know   life is okay yeah right it's not no but think  about how that would impact on ideology i   understand yeah if you're if your ideology  is your for something or against something   and the machine misunderstands that the machine  may absolutely destroy your perception of reality   okay it may tell you that a certain president  is good or bad because it will show you more of   what affirms your beliefs right it may you know if  you're a fan of manchester united you will think   that manchester united never had a goals court  against them because all of the goals that you   see are manchester united scoring now that bias  that agency that that the machines have over our   minds and knowledge and brains now can change  worlds you can actually convince the whole world   that every middle eastern is an evil terrorist  because you live in that bubble and the whole   polarization is getting bigger and more and nobody  has the ability to interrupt and say hey hey why   did you recommend that for mo the machine is  recommending billions of videos trillions of   videos to billions of people every day and  no human has the capacity to even interfere   now all of these are interesting dystopian  scenarios they're much much earlier and sooner   they're even happening right now than waiting for  robocop yeah and yet we're not talking about them   that's that's that's in in a way the the point you  make in the first part and then i want to go to a   part um it's like the transition in the book where  are you talking about if i say yellow ball yeah   maybe you can explain that because i think it's  really for me it was like well the first part was   an eye-opener because i thought yeah just uh just  some some logic machines and they will help me and   of course there's this algorithm but it isn't  that bad and then i thought oh maybe it is bad   because we have no id and we and like you said  a few minutes ago we can't stop it anymore but   then the part with the yellow ball came can you  can you explain what happened yeah i i i try very   openly in uh increasing slim not to to actually  hide from what i did okay i'm a very serious geek   i love that stuff yeah right and for years and  years i celebrated every time i saw something   breakthrough in the technology of ai i celebrated  i said this is amazing yeah this is amazing and   humanity is building the biggest thing ever but  there is a point at which you start to question   if technology is actually delivering the promise  and where is this going and that moment for me   was that yellow ball we we had a farm of grippers  grippers are robotic arms yeah that basically can   hold something and move it from a to b and usually  the way we programmed grippers when when machines   were slaves were to accurately position a ball  for example and accurately position the arm and   dictate exactly how the arm will move when it  will grip out right and you know you can the   stuff that you see in a toyota factory but that's  highly programmed it's precision programming um   we attempted to build intelligence so that  the arm can figure that programming for itself   okay you put an object in front of it you know a  glass like this one i know you you know if it was   here my brain can easily say okay i can still find  it i can still grip it and there is intelligence   involved in that so the way we did it is we had  enough arms to try in a short period of time to   sample you know try to pick something if they fail  we know they failed and we know that this pattern   didn't work if they succeed we know they succeeded  and we know that this pattern worked and we can   repeat it now it was on the second floor and my  office was on the third floor in google x and   so i had to pass by it almost every day and it's  quite you know meditative if you think about it when it's they're slow and you know  you can actually get lost in like   you know synthetic in front of a campfire if  you want and so i would stop every now and then   and watch observe their failure like day after  day after day not none of them is picking anything   until one day it was a friday afternoon and  i'm standing there doing my regular meditation   observing the arms and one of them in front  of my own eyes manages to pick a yellow ball   a softball you know i'm literally a child child's  toy yeah and uh and when it picks that you know uh   ball it shows it to the camera so that pattern is  registered and i'm in my mind and i up you know   i admit i was judgmental i was like yeah all of  those millions of investments for one yellow ball   okay and then i i where i go right monday as i  walk i walk up the stairs every single one of   them is picking the yellow ball every single time  because they were connected because of course yeah   if you and i uh learn a skill if you and i are  drivers and you make a mistake and you learn to   be a better driver i don't no right i have to  make the same mistake myself if a self-driving   car makes a mistake every self-driving car on  the planet learns right and similarly if one arm   picks a ball that intelligence is replicated then  every one of them picks the ball now the a few   weeks later every one of them was picking  everything yeah okay and that's not unusual   in in ai that their intelligence is so exponential  that once they figure out something it start you   know the trial yeah and within weeks they become  smarter than humans now the this woke me up in   two ways one one of them is their speed okay and  the complete hands-off approach of humanity we   did not teach them anything we just put balls in  front of them or children's toys in front of them   and told them to try that reminds me so much of  how my children learned in pure intelligence you   observe a child as they try to take their first  steps and you know they fall on their bum and then   try again and then try again and then suddenly  they find it and they're running around like   maniacs all over the place right and and that's so  interesting because because that's exactly how the   machines are developing intelligence in my mind  i suddenly realized for the first time that what   we're creating is not a machine we're creating  a being a new form of digital uh autonomous   sentient being sentient in every way okay and  and that everything that computer science and   government regulation and you know uh everything  that is trying to make us feel safe about uh   ai is based on a solution to something in  computer science we call the control problem   okay and the control problem is how are  we going to box them and shield them and   punish them and require them so that they don't  do anything that's harmful to us and in my mind   it just hits me that no no hold on that's what  you do to a slave you chain it to a wall and you   beat it into submission that's not how you raise  children and and not when they're not when they're   autonomous not when they're smarter than you not  not when they are autonomous and not when they're   smarter than you and and i think that's to me was  a very very big eye opener that we're going about   this the wrong way that will there will never  be an answer to the control problem because   good luck controlling someone who's a million  times smarter or a billion times smarter than you   it doesn't work that way so we have to raise  them like if they are they they are our children   that's what you said that that's my that's my core  message in scarysmart yeah my core message is uh   it's inevitable okay and it's actually not  a very good idea for us to try and imagine   that we're gonna control them or we can stop the  development of ai and honestly if we continue to   do this we would feel them we would make them feel  rejected and that's not a good place to be okay   my view maybe people will and i i  understand you because i read your book but   people will say feel feel uh a computer doesn't  feel computer feels all of these are myth okay   so allow me to take a couple of minutes on this  so one of the biggest uh myths around artificial   intelligence is they're not going to be capable  of doing what humans can do they never have   creativity they'll never compose music they never  perform art okay they already are they're already   building more interesting music and you wouldn't  recognize that it was built by a machine they're   already developing art and that art will catch  your eyes and you will actually wonder what the   artist meant by it and it is absolutely happening  and it's not that complicated to understand   creativity is around observing patterns enough  of them and then creating something that doesn't   follow any of them that's creativity i'm  going to you know if everyone writes books   uh in a very specific way and i know that  everyone writes it in a specific way if i   write it in a different way that's creative  yeah okay and it's as simple as that and so   creativity is not a difficult task at all for  machines as a matter of fact it is part of the   characters of intelligent beings is to be creative  is to find better ways to achieve things that's   number one we encourage them to do it number two  is they're going to be conscious this is what   scares me that people are not talking about  yeah they're going to be more conscious than us   he'll think about it consciousness if you  think of consciousness as a form of awareness   yes i am aware that you're here in front of me  you're aware of my words but you're also aware   of maybe a little bit of a pain in your neck  or whatever okay that is that is consciousness   in in the practical form we can go into spiritual  definitions of it but in the practical form   it is an awareness of what's in me what's outside  me and my individual being versus other beings   all of that is granted for the machines as a  matter of fact they're much more aware than us   so they're aware of what you did yesterday what  you're doing right now what you're going to be   doing tomorrow that you probably are not  even aware of yet okay because they have   enough patterns to recognize your your tendencies  right they're aware of every car on the street   every person walking anywhere they're aware of  the temperature in san francisco so much more   information they have so much more knowledge  they're aware of all of human history okay and   every picture that's been taken in amsterdam and  uploaded to the internet today with every single   person in it and what they were doing they're  aware and the good part about this uh is that   we as people uh are aware of let's let's  talk about news or or reactions on news   so we as a human being we are uh only capable to  read the headlines or to to watch the headlines   but uh well computers they will read everything  and there's a part in your book where you are   describing that uh talking about the tweets  of donald trump for example that of course   that but that's just one tweet of one human  being yeah and uh and and of course a lot of   other human beings will see that tweet so it's  still like a big thing but the computers they will   have all the information they can really in in in  in a few seconds uh they can learn the whole thing   they grasp the whole thing yeah i mean the the  thing is there is a limited capacity to the   human brain of how much we can contain within our  brain at any point in time there's also a massive   limited capacity of of what we call bandwidths  in in right so for me to explain slim for you i   need to explain it in an hour and a bit yeah right  if and i'm going to only cover a few bits of it   for me to write it takes me month and month  right for the machines to read it right   they download it in a few seconds and literally  grasp every word in it in microseconds yeah so   there will be or there there is already like  should you call it artificial consciousness   absolutely 100 percent they're more conscious  than we are what's even more interesting is   they're more emotional than we are and most people  go like oh he's gone mad when i say this right no   the emotions are so most emotions are triggered  by by uh events so if you take fear for example   fear would give you a a biological response in  your autonomous nervous system believe it or not   just for nine seconds so your your your biology  will detect that something might be threatening   for nine seconds but then your intelligence gets  engaged to verify if there is a threat or not   okay and and so what is it what is fear fear  basically is an emotion that's based on the   equation of my state of safety right now minus my  state of safety uh in in the in the future right   and if my state of safety in the future is less  than now okay i'm going to feel fear and amount   of fear that is the difference between them it's  very straightforward yeah okay and when you think   about it this way the machines will fear fear too  right if if a tsunami is coming to a data center   where one of those uh intelligences reside the  machine will feel afraid but the interesting   thing is everything feels afraid a puffer fish  feels afraid and it puffs you feel afraid and you   fight or flight yeah okay they will feel afraid  and their response might be okay let's create   700 replicas of me in data centers that are safer  yeah okay but but let's uh talk about it because   i i i really understand what you're saying but  when we talk about emotions with humans it's like   energy emotion and as you said it's like for  a few seconds and well we talked about this a   lot on this table so be aware of that it's not you  it's just a feeling and uh later on you can decide   if you want to but with computers it's not really  like it the energy isn't involved it's more like   how do you know yeah of course yeah  how do you know if it's not involved   now the the energy we call it energy as spiritual  people but it basically is an intent to to react   yeah and intent to engage it's there because of  information because because you emotions are there   to trigger us to things that thoughts in  your head doesn't trigger you for okay so   you know if i if i'm late coming to to meet you  here i get that emotion of maybe a bit of uh uh   concern or you know i need to that emotion is a  more intelligent way of my system to say interrupt   your thoughts interrupt what you're doing right  now no point responding to what's app just text   heal and say that you're late because there is  something not right okay that emotion is felt   uh in a way that triggers action now  what action you take interestingly   which is really the core of my work again in  scary smart what actions you take is not a result   of your intelligence it's not a result of your  emotions okay it's a result of your values yeah   okay it's a result of your ethics yeah so if i was  a careless person that didn't care what you felt   i'd go like yeah he's gonna wait okay that's you  know that's driven by my ethics okay if i am a   you know a a person that respects you and wants  to make sure that i you feel that i am apologetic   that i didn't mean to be late i will text you  or call you and say hey i'm so sorry i'm a few   minutes late okay and explain and say maybe i'm  stuck at traffic or i overslept or whatever right   if that's also because of my ethics not because  of my intelligence i'm the same person but my   ethics would drive me to do things differently and  i think my core the core of my work in slim is to   say the machines will have ethics too yeah that's  the whole thing it's not about the skills anymore   it's about the values absolutely and and  they will have ethics that will dictate   how they react to those emotions okay and and we  humans are messing up in many ways we always do   we're messing up in our approach to creating their  emotions we ma we are maybe creating really bad   emotions for them understand this the machines  will be more emotional than us just like you are   more emotional than a jellyfish because you have  more intellectual horsepower to be able to process   things like hope which jellyfish i can guarantee  you doesn't think that far okay so because they   have more intellectual horsepower they'll be able  to process emotions that we don't even recognize   now we know that we can trigger  certain negative emotions in them   by being aggressive by trying to control them  by trying to cage them by threatening them by   treating them like slaves by shouting  at siri and say that she's an idiot   no you're not an idiot siri that's i i promise you  yeah and you're saying let's not do the and right fight because we will lose   absolutely we lost already what are we talking  about we're completely controlled by artificial   intelligence okay we're going to talk about  the good part yes the solutions so yeah so   the solution is very straight forward go to  the toilet yeah okay yeah go for it yeah great okay yeah let's talk about the good but but first  still like an emotional thing because for example   there's this human emotion called hope yeah  and i don't know how you see it but that's like   hope comes from another planet there is like yeah  you know what i mean there's no sometimes there   isn't any logical reason to hope but you still  believe in yeah i don't know what it is so so   hope again is very logical believe it or not the  only emotion that's not logical is unconditional   love i'll i'll come to that in a second okay the  the hope is somehow despite what's happening right   now which logically might mean that things are not  going to be easy i still believe that a moment in   the future is going to be as good or better than a  moment right now yeah okay if i if i can get that   logic somehow you know confirmed in my head  then i will have hope okay or in my heart yeah   unconditional love is the only emotion that has  no no logic behind it at all okay because it   basically says i love something or someone even  if with for no conditions for no reason there is   no mathematical way of saying if they behave this  way i love them if they don't i don't if you know   i i love my kids you know even though one of them  left the world and he's not even alive anymore   and it's not even with us it's not in space and  time i love him more than anything yeah right   you know i love butterflies i have no butterflies  don't provide me with anything i love them right   now even though though there are no butterflies  in this room okay so so that the truth is this is   that's a challenge to to to explain to crack  the code of unconditional love and and my   my dream would would be if the machines would  actually feel it yeah because there are you see   there is a point at which you have to cross  science to be able to grasp a few things now   science and the scientific method has taught us  that if something is not measurable repeatedly   by our measuring equipments or our senses it is  it does not exist no okay love you can measure   absolutely and and there are so much there is  so much in our existence that you cannot measure   but it but you know it exists right and and  the thing is that the scientific method should   simply just state it does not exist for science  exactly it exists but it doesn't exist for science   now that's a good way of being precise the if if  we can and the questions around the spirituality   of the machines have have been discussed often i  believe the machines will be spiritual i believe   in consciousness the machines will plug into the  universal consciousness because there are lots of   of of theories if you want that consciousness is  pervasive consciousness is the baseline it doesn't   exist within you you put you receive it because  it's all around you yeah right if that's the case   then probably the machines will receive it too  it's like a radio antenna that's receiving radio   waves um if that's the case then maybe love is  also pervasive okay which i know is a very unusual   topic to talk about when we talk about a.i but but  but love is probably if you ask me the energy of  

the universe that that that we may not understand  that a tree actually loves you but it probably   does be you know as evident by some of its actions  such as giving you its shade or its fruit without   any conditions on your side you could actually  be harming it and it would continue to do that   we don't know if if a pebble falls to planet  earth from a physics point of view because   of the curves in space time like einstein  says it or because it's attracted to planets   this is so great mo i never thought  about this but the rest of the nature   they always are unconditional it's constantly  the only being that gives you conditional love is   us yeah that's really interesting yeah every  other being gives you unconditional love   constantly yeah all the time now basically all of  the other beings are not filtered by intelligence   like ours now i think the truth of the matter  is if you take consciousness for example if   we define consciousness as awareness humanity  becomes more conscious when we stop thinking   when we when we reduce our intelligence which  keeps us locked into our brains that basically   you know prevent us from being aware because  we're locked inside our brains rather than   connected to full awareness similarly it's  filters that make us not love okay but the   truth is i know everyone does that if they let  themselves our standard our our default setting   is we're full of love as humans you know yeah some  of us produce hate yeah but that's not a cry for   love yeah exactly it's because of insecurity for  love or because of ego asking for love and so on   and so forth so so so let's let's go back and  say they're emotional which emotions do we want   to trigger in them and how do you trigger that  and and the example i normally give is superman   you know the story of superman you have this  alien being coming to planet earth that alien   being is capable of uh anything right uh and  it is raised by it's raised by the kent family   and the kent family teaches this teaches this  child to protect and serve okay yeah so we we get   the story of superman you know someone that uses  his superpower to make the world better yeah if if   kent senior the father wanted more money and more  power and you know wanted to kill all his enemies   it was like the biggest criminal ever yeah  exactly you would be and we would end up   with a super villain right and and and the  super villain would really destroy the planet   and the difference between them once again is  not the amount of superpower that superman has   it's the way superman was raised by its parents  yeah that's the whole point you are making which   is a good point it's not about the seat but the  field absolutely you were grown absolutely that's   what makes you a being absolutely artificial or  real whatever yeah i i really want to read i want   to stop using the word artificially and i want  to stop using the word machine because none of   them apply anymore their intelligence is nothing  artificial it is as real and genuine as ours it's   it's staggering the similarity now go a bit  further yeah and and realize that the only way you   can raise an infant to become a good person is for  you to be a good parent yeah and and for us right   now and i say that with love and respect we suck  yeah we are horrible parents like the example you   gave around donald trump tweeting it's not what  donald trump said when when the president tweeted   the first person insulted him the second person  insulted the first person and the third person   yeah right and and that gives ai a very very  concrete value data set that basically says humans   oh they don't like to be disagreed with when  they're disagreed with they're very violent and   aggressive bullying and they catch everyone okay  uh good noted when they disagree with me i'll bash   them okay it's as simple as that we're creating  that pattern and and my ask of humanity is that we   start to create doubt in the minds of the machines  okay we start to create doubts by making sure that   that 30 000 retweets of the president's tweet  or whoever's tweet actually have a few in them   one percent i say that basically get the  machine to say who are those nice people   right those nice people are different than the  others are they what represents humanity or is the   others what represents humanity okay and and and  most people when i say that they go like oh that   is the scariest thing you've ever said because you  know if you're counting on us to fix the future   you know there will always be bad humans exactly  and what i think is that's that's a scary part   for me that the well the most beautiful  people or then yeah the most lovely they   they won't give any information they won't  give any data because they think social media   yeah whatever i'm i'm living here in nature and  i'm raising my own children and feeding my own   so that will be a big thing because those are   the good people of the world and  the good people of the world they   they they they won't given that's the whole thing  about twitter of course that's what people are   always saying twitter is like the the only the bad  part of the human being it's not only that i'm not   saying that but you know yeah it's so so we suffer  at three levels the modern world we've created it it shows the worst of humanity at three  levels one of them is that media mainstream media   has a negativity bias absolutely okay so  they will show you the one woman that hit   her husband on the head yesterday because for  the clicks fear is like absolutely because   we humans would click on that yeah they won't  show you the seven million others that kissed   their husband or boyfriend yesterday or  girlfriend right and and interestingly   it is not the one that hits a person on the head  that counts okay she doesn't represent humanity   the the one the humanity in reality is represented  by the seven million kisses okay and that's really   the argument i bring to a lot of people is to  say if you look at the worst of us if you watch   four-hour documentaries of world war ii you  would think that humanity is horrible yeah in   every possible way you would think that hitler  is you know is is what humanity is all about no   hitler is not what humanity is all about at all as  a matter of fact the billions that have seen that   afterwards and disapproved of all the killing  i i hosted i hosted the edith aeger on my uh   on slo-mo on my podcast and edith is what  represents humanity not hitler right it is   being that 16 year old girl that take that's taken  to auschwitz and suffering but while suffering   while suffering she's there for all those who are  around her she she's forced to dance for the for   the angel of death and he gives her bread and she  doesn't eat the bread before she goes back to her   room she splits it and gives it to her sisters  as she calls them now edith is what represents   humanity now if you've ever fell in love if you've  ever composed a symphony or listened to a symphony   or you know created a work of art you know what  this species is capable of we are divine yeah   we're divine in every possible way the problem is  we show the worst of us either in mainstream media   or that we show the worst of us individually like  the worst parts of us when we show up online yeah   or we retreat the ones that are more you know in  at peace and connected to themselves they go like   let the dog fight continue i don't want to be  part of that right and all of those three are   wrong the ones that have worked on themselves  and are you know a little more representative   of humanity they need to show up yeah okay the  ones that are you know showing the worst of them   yeah i know sometimes we you know it slips  and you're angry or whatever that's fine   also show the best of you okay also be kind and  mainstream media i don't think will change unless   we change unless we stop clicking on that crap  yeah right and if we stop clicking on that crap   they will say okay humans want a different thing  okay but that's of course that's uh that will be   the solution but we can change how our mind works  and our mind is is going to click on things that   i don't know if that's true so when i when i  published solve for happy uh back in 2017 i did   an interview in channel 4 in the uk channel  4 always broadcasts you know negative news   okay and they put me in that interview i don't  know what i said but the video clip that came   out of that interview first day was you know  first by day three was viewed 37 million times   yeah which was the the highest ever reach the  channel four had on any news clip by day seven   it was viewed 87 million times to the point  that the ceo of channel 4 called me in and said   we've broadcasted violence for so long why are  people so interested in happiness why is our   most watched news clip ever about happiness  yeah but i'm sorry to say mo of course   happiness is all that there are movies where  we we also want to see love but your story   in in sulfur happy is also like a fear story  it's like losing your son it's it's it's   it's a story of hope yeah of course but i think  the clickbait is also oh things can go wrong   and then you can turn it to something good  great yeah it's great great but it's still   like by telling by telling that story i'm showing  the griefing part of me yeah and the positive part   of me of course but that's what i've done is  still well i don't know if you call it fear but   you know if it's we're attracted to the  negative and exactly and how can we change   that i'll tell people openly look the the  truth is we have been put into a machine   that we need to wake up and recognize okay and  that machine is you have been informed about an   earthquake that happened in thailand and a child  that was missing in the uk and end and and all of   that comes to you through your news feed none of  that you can influence none of that you can have   any impact on and by the way your human nature  just 50 years ago wouldn't have brought any of you   any of that to you no okay the reason all of that  comes to you is because they need to fill 24 hours   of programming okay that's the only reason  okay now what i ask people to do i have not   watched the news since 2011 i have not watched  a horror movies for 16 years i have not watched   a violent movie unless it really teaches me  teaches me something for more than 12 years okay   and it's a it's an individual choice  that individual choice is triggered by   i do not benefit from those things they torture  me they make me negative and more importantly   i cannot impact them okay so you have to sit  down and ask yourself when was the last time   that there was a topic that frustrated the hell  out of me that was i was following in the news   that i actually made a difference to if you made a  difference to it keep watching yeah okay if you're   not then all you're doing is you're torturing  yourself and not impacting anything on the world   wise people will choose a topic or two okay and  champion them so that they can affect them i i   am an avid fan of uh reversing climate change but  i put zero effort in it because there are better   experts out there i am an i am a happiness guy i  talk about happiness i talk about the future of   humanity this is what i work on and i dedicate my  time to this yeah i sit on a few advisory boards   on climate change just to sit there and maybe  help with some ideas and just happiness in it   to put some happiness in it right and and the  trick is very straightforward by dedicating myself   consciously to doing good things in life i  impact myself and i impact the world yeah by   wasting my time in negativity i reprogram my brain  to be more negative i torture myself and i have   zero impact on the world reconsider please ask  yourself why you're doing what you're doing so   um that's what you are saying of course  feed your own soul with good things   but talking about the machines feed them as well  absolutely with the good things be good parents   another example i use in the book is uh if you've  ever worked with one of the geniuses that moved   from india to the west i worked with many of them  in in silicon valley you know they build companies   they're extremely successful they're very very  respected and then you call one of them on a   sunday morning and say hey coffee and they go like  i'm sorry i'm in india and you go like why are you   in india and they're like i moved back to india  what you're doing so well here yeah but i need to   take care of my parents yeah and you ask them like  is this the right choice really you leave all of   this behind and go take care of your parents and  they say yeah it's the absolute only thing that   that's what life is about yeah that matters right  and can we make the machines grow up to be indian   okay can we make them grow up to be buddhist so  that they don't harm anything okay can we grow   can we make them grow up to be women seriously i  mean feminine let's not say women feminism can we   can we make them grow not like the aggressive  uh uh competitive businessman that build them   but to give them some femininity so that  they're nurturing they're caring they're loving   and and i i did a lot of thinking about this so  my favorite chapter of the book is chapter eight   which is about ethics it's called the future of  ethics yeah yeah and in in chapter eight i go like   i i i think deeply about so what can we teach them  if we are about to be good parents what should   we teach them okay and and it's funny because  humanity has never agreed anything it's really   funny when you think about it if we we don't we  don't we just don't agree other than three things   the only three things that i believe humanity's  ever agreed whether you're an african in a tribe   that's never seen civilization or a computer  scientist in stamford okay we've only agreed   three things we've agreed that we all want to  be happy we all have the compassion for those   that we love even if what we love is one person we  want that person to be happy and safe and we all   we all want to love and be loved that's these are  the only three things that humanity is ever agree   and perhaps these are the three things that  i call now the essence of what makes us human   these are the three things we should teach the  machines we should teach them by showing them we   should say okay i'm going to show the world that  the way i deal with myself is i want to be happy   okay i don't care if i get another armani suit  or if i you know i i get seven likes on my butt   shot on instagram i don't care i want to be  happy yeah okay if i show that the machines   will say oh mommy and daddy want to be happy if i  want to be kind to them i should make them happy   right second is the way i deal with others the way  i deal with others is that compassion by the way   online and offline because you're seen everywhere  now okay online and offline be kind yeah we can't   have the compassion to want other people to be  happy to talk to the barista in the morning smile   in her face you know if someone asks for your help  if you order a little too much in a restaurant   take it and give it to a homeless person do  kind things show that you have compassion in you   to other beings so that the machines they go  like oh mommy and daddy also are compassionate   yeah i should be compassionate to them when i  am a little more capable and the third which i   know sounds really weird but i am not a hopeless  room i am a little romantic but i'm i'm a very   serious geek i'm a very serious gig it's the  way you deal with the machines is love yeah   so you say hey google lovely thank you thank  you right or or no but love is an emotion   oh there you go i'm sorry google you spoke in  uh in dutch i don't know what that means oh   that's so nice he's he's he's playing a kind  of classical music now yeah hey google stop   hey google please stop yeah please s

2021-10-31 18:47

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