'These Are Massive Business Losses': NYT Reporter On President Donald Trump | Morning Joe | MSNBC
Launching, let's launch into the bigger alright Jesse Ferguson the, former deputy national press secretary for Hillary Clinton tweeted this math to. Lose over 1, billion, dollars, over. Ten years Trump, lost. 11. Thousand four hundred and sixteen, dollars per hour Trump, the last two hundred and seventy four thousand, dollars every, single day Trump. Lost eight point, three million. Every. Month Trump, lost 100. Million, every. Year for. A decade. See. That's. That's, how you do it okay. Somehow that sound, doesn't even match how bad those numbers, are. More. Okay. So, the. Tax. Information, on Trump from 85, to 94, and says the documents showed that by the time his best-selling memoir, this is the part I love by, the time, the art of the deal came out everybody said I want, to be just like Trump this is what I want cuz I knew a lot of people that read that and said I wanna beat you say yeah, baby now they'll know you didn't, unless, you already. Wanted to be in deep, financial trouble by that time you losing, tens, of millions, of dollars on bad business. Deals the. Paper says the figures, show that in 1985. Trump. Reported, losses of just over 46. Million, dollars. From, this core businesses, mostly casinos, hotels. And retail, space and apartment, buildings those businesses, continue, to lose money every day, for, a total loss of. 1.7. Billion dollars. Over the, nearly, 10 year span The, Times goes on to say that year that year after Trump. Appears to the year after year Trump appears to have lost more money, than. Nearly any other individual. American. Taxpayer. Citing. His results, compared, to information, compiled, by the IRS, on high-income. Earners, more. Than anybody. He lost more in, nine, in, 1991. His, core business, losses totaled. More than, 250. Million. Dollars. Each year more than twice that of the nearest taxpayer, in, the IRS, is information. For the two years, was. The biggest. Well loser I'm sure the paper ads that Trump lost so much money that he, avoided. Paying taxes, for 8 to 10 years they. Examined the time says a lawyer, from the president's order responding, to the inquiries about the tax information by writing it was demonstrable, false 1/10. Of the paper statements, about the president's actions are 30 years ago were highly inaccurate, cited. No specific, errors, sooner I am what I thought was so interesting is they. Sort of had this rolling, the. This rolling statement. The first when it first started, they were saying to you all well I'm talking to them from the appreciation. And, you know he's such a powerful, businessman. He could do dick and as, the story got closer and you all moved, in closer then they they. Finally, gave up and they said fake news yeah and that the the transcript, we have was just not. Reliable no.
Information. That you got this from. You. Also said in the piece that this. Is not only, highly. Accurate information, but it is actually information, that. The government is used before in trying to, to, project forward yeah and a guard against the idea that there there may be a somebody, may have typed in something wrong we, we, asked the source to provide us with several. Years of Fred Trump stocks information, because, of a previous investigation we, did we have years. Of Fred Trump's tax returns right not stats dollar for dollar yeah, and you know so, we. Were on, Twitter but in between my 87. Liverpool, tweets we. Were debating what was more, powerful, your lead because. I thought the lead was extraordinary. And. That is by the by, the time his master of the universe memo, our Trump the the. Art of the deal hit book sourcing ideas ever done Trump was already, in deep financial distress. Losing. Tens of millions of dollars and we already went through all that. That was more powerful or whether it was more powerful at the end when. You all were, saying that, Donald Trump was making excuses for, his losses that's, well this is such a terrible, time. Everybody. Is losing, money. Except. Except. Donald. Trump may have lost a, ton of money, what 53, well actually, he. Lost. 219. 274. Million core businesses, did that yeah that year everybody. Was just know everybody wasn't losing how did Fred Trump do he. Did really well and would have done even better but he took out money that year. To. Help his son yeah. Yeah, so Fred. Trump. Father Fred Trump made about. Fifty four million, dollars, yeah, that year his only, significant, loss. It. Was a fifteen, million dollar investment one of Donald's, business it was that didn't do so well yeah, yes so so. It. Seems that. Donald. Trump. Burst. Under the scene he had a couple of quick successes, and, it wasn't really much the first. Wave of spending. The getting as much, as it was you describe, the, second, wave of, acquisitions. That just, one, failure after another, well I thought. What was incredible we, saw, the data if there was one era, in his life that you thought he, would have done well, it would have been this, I wouldn't have predicted that every, year would have had a loss this, is a guy who wrote a memoir about art of the deal in 1987. And lost tens of millions of dollars that year like you would have just picked if I could have picked a decade having, followed his finances, there would have been at least one or two years in here I thought he, was doing well, prior to the you know he's always said 1990. Was the year he hit the rocks and now. We see that he was losing that significant. Amount significant, amounts of money and we now know through at least, 1984. Because we've got transparency. Into that effects to the 85 returns them and the, return information that we've now seen and, again that was fought those are the heels of what should have been his biggest. Successes whether we strung tower whether. It was the Hyatt right, that, he built it but if those are your records, how do you how, do you get loans where, where who would lend, you money who would well. Some, of it was guaranteed by.
His Father right, and. It was just I mean in some in other areas just a different era at the time and he also had a that's that you know at the point that he could get money against, but you, know operty yeah properties, but, some of it was guaranteed certainly by his father because his. Father in in in, two, thousand nineteen dollars and gave, me something four hundred and fifteen, million, dollars, also, I left of the part of this where Donald Trump played corporate, raider like, I'm gonna come in and I'm that's great and then the stock should go up a little bit and after a while Wall Street figured out much faster than about is this guy's just full of it right he's not gonna buy any company he's just trying to, pass him in he didn't he did well on some of those trades but ultimately even those were lost you lost something I lasted, twice Wall Street figured out it was all the way for four years and then when he you, put point, out in the piece when he was on the Forbes list in 1985. Which was a big breakout moment for him they listed him as having six hundred million, dollars but, most of that you point out was his father's yeah that. He's got on independently. Of his father right but it was still a lot of the assets so, it's, interesting to read this because we were talking about before we came on the air in the 1980s, most, people around New York sort of knew this or. Suspected. This that he was something of a fraud and that it was a he was a charlatan in some ways but we didn't know the extent of it we didn't know the numbers that he lost more than a billion dollars, over a decade his losses are so huge and when when you talk to his people like they're like Oh depreciation. This, is not depreciation. Yeah those are massive business. Losses, and we had access, to data. Of data bank where we could see, other. Results, of high income earners, he. Was he, was at the top of it for like the worst losses a year in and year out like what he this is not like Oh a. Lot of people who are in real estate have. These type of results, yeah really, bad business, might think about that and let's just stop for one second. For people that haven't, read this story. Donald. Trump for the better part of the decade. Lost. More money. Than. Perhaps any, other, American. Taxpayer. Yeah for an earlier 10-year period for nearly a decade lost, more money so it's not like oh well, he, might not have been the. Brilliant, he likes a turn yeah, and also, of course he said and you all had had, the great quote in this graph I. Think. It's some fourteen of all his losses there's. A quote that says, the way that you that, I judge, success. Is. Unfortunately. By money well, by, that standard. Let's. See here we want that yes, let's say. Yeah. Look. Look at those those. Dollars, that that alarm is that the bankruptcy, alarm. Wrap. Your arms around that fact, that. He. Lost more, money than, any, individual. In America, for over a decade you, could read any, biography. That's ever been written about Donald, Trump and, it wouldn't come close to. A portrayal, of him, as an individual, better than, this forensic, autopsy. Of his. Money and it is lack of money there. Is one element in, here that that jumped. Out at me Suzanne, and it was the fifty. Two point nine million dollar wind, sucked out audacity, and the interest in it jumped out at YouTube yeah tell us why well, it was every. Year we Donald, Trump had pretty, steady, amount of interest income coming in it would be you know eight, nine ten eleven million dollars it would kind of go up and down interest, everything was interest you're getting from mortgages, or bonds, one, year in 1989, it went to fifty two point. Nine million we, couldn't figure it out and it's, interesting because this is a year, there's a lot of vagaries. Around Donald Trump's finances, in that year the casino Commission's were all over. Him in New, Jersey and, we actually, had a lot of transparency into how he was doing there was a 19-9 a report, that was written on his finances that was based on people who had seen his tax return week, find no asset, that would be throwing, off that, type of money and we did not have the. Schedules, to understand, what, was behind that we have the numbers but we actually don't have the things you have to put on where you have to itemize, it and it really goes to -, for. Us the importance, of seeing the, modern tax returns and not just the front pages that you know the 1040, that we all fill out but the schedules, where we can actually see, where. This money is coming from and it was just like it was really frustrating we spent we spent months trying not to write about these numbers I want to get Julia Ainsley, and Jake Sherman and here a question, for you both and, I know you're here to cover William Barr and other things and we've got a lot to get to but just curious what questions, come to mind based.
On What we're seeing here over the course of ten years and, such, huge, losses, especially. From a President, of the United States who, now, is literally. Historically, someone. Who has lost, more money than any I mean he's, broken, a record here, one that maybe he doesn't want anyone, to know that he broke what, questions, does it raise in, terms of what the tax returns that. We have yet to see look. Like exactly, so I'm seeing this through the Washington lens and the write that we're having right now with the Treasury Secretary, refusing, to hand over more, current tax returns and this graph jumped, out at me amazing, reporting, here overall, that mr. Trump lost so much money he was able to avoid paying income taxes, for eight out of the five years and if you think about what voters care about in the narrative that they've seen behind, Trump, and the, debate the power that Congress could have with. That information to say we need to see more, I wondered, you know what what that meant to you that he wasn't able to avoid, that was that some maneuvering. Or is that just simply he was at such a loss when you have that big of losses, you're. Able to avoid tax in the to the two years he had at one when, they were both on there he was paying the the, AMT the alternative in um um talks and. It. One of it was because he just had a big payout on a salary, from a deal that he did so it triggered it I mean we're not looking we're not Lear's we saw they're not huge amounts toxicity, income, tax to be ended up paying. You know it's when you have the losses that big you don't have to pay tax yeah and I need new. Correction, I had said the biggest, losses of any taxpayer, he actually was jack pointed out in my ear he's a tax filer, not a payer this wasn't a tax payer, because, he was so doing so poorly in business, and he's always saying I'm being audited show. You my tax returns, and oh you. Could bet that. May be the principal, reason, why he has fought so hard for, so long to preclude anyone, from seeing his taxes, is that he goes out to the country some errands it helps me help it helps him get elected talking about the system is rigged against, you, the. Betting is that, he has paid very, few if any taxes, over the last ten years and he has a Treasury secretary who's protecting, his natural, turns at the mountain so I want to ask you about yeah you ask you about your reporting, because we know what's coming I'm surprised we haven't seen a tweet yet from the president he's gonna say this is fake news they didn't even get the actual, tax return they got it secondhand, they got copies, of them can, you speak to the veracity of the documents, you saw sure, and we were upfront we don't have the tax returns we have, we. Have a copy of an IRS document, of his IRS, transcript. And. We were able to confirm. It through a number of ways including, the. Individual. Who provide us also provided us with Trump's, tax returns, and. We also were able to match. Donald. For the transcript. That we have through, and actually. A database.
That's Kept by the IRS it's anonymous but because we had the, taxes, and the first instance and tax information we were able to match it into the database and we also just had a lot of information from the other investigation. We did on Fred Trump's tax return and other things match so we've spent a lot of time back-engineering, it and going, out for confirmation, in other ways well, so Jake how's this going to move. Debate forward as it pertains to the. Democrats getting a hold of Donald Trump's tax returns. They have they. Have the statutory right, you, know somebody a couple days ago said this was a constitutional. Crisis, that. Was corrected, this is not a constitutional, crisis. When the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee asks, for your tax returns and individuals, tax returns and, the Treasury Department doesn't, get it give it that's a crime so, how. Were they going to resolve that well. Let, me just reverse for a second last night when this great amazing story popped, the, house was voting, and the, reaction, almost, to a person, among Republicans. Was wait, didn't we know he was losing a lot of money during those years so. People weren't moved, Republicans. Obviously weren't moved by this which they should be because this is coming. And Jake they also were, not moved by the fact that we have an attorney general who committed, perjury in the House, of Representatives. And would have any of us thrown in jail but neither he nor the. Majority, leader cares. And. Answering, your more direct question, is yes. The law is clear that, the, Treasury. Secretary, has to hand over the. Individuals. Tax returns, when the Ways and Means Committee Chairman, asks for it not, as Stephen minuchin says if. There's a legitimate legislative, purpose, now this, is almost definitely, going to court and is, going to be a massive, battle between the administration and, Capitol Hill for, the foreseeable, future I think from, the president's, allies what, I keep hearing is let's, get past 20, 20 Republicans.
Want To get past 20 20 without these battles, being resolved, and it, looks like if it goes to court if passed as president they are going to be able to get past 20 20 without extracting. The president's tax returns I just don't understand why the supreme court wouldn't expedited. I think this would go to the DC Circuit it, would be appealed and the court would handle it very quickly, but we'll, see what happens this bring in New York Times reporter Michael Schmitt, Michael. Thanks so much for being with us you. Know the president had said to you some time ago that, to talk about his personal finances, was crossing, the line. You. Know that line, has been crossed of, course and now, Democrats. Have. Even more reason, do. They not to try to get a hold of his tax returns, to try to figure out whether. Saudi Arabia, whether, Russia, whether. Some, oligarchs, from these countries, doesn't make you one we're actually floating his business, because he had lost so much money that as we, all knew in New York, no, American, bank what. I mean I've talked to several people who had who were the ones who had to go over and tell Donald, Trump one. Even in the middle of the presidential. Campaign no, Donald. We can't, loan. You money, and you know that so doesn't, this just increase, the, Democrats need for seeing those tax returns yeah, yeah. You're right the, funny thing about the, Muller report, when it came as I said that there was no underlying crime, that they could show and I, sort of understood from a legal perspective why they were saying that but the president, always feared. The, Muller investigation. Looking, at his finances. He said to us in, July of 2017, that, if Muller looked at them that, it was crossing, a red line and then in December of 2017, after, there was a wrong report out there that, Muller had subpoenaed his banking records he wanted to get rid of Muller again. So what was it about his. Finances, that he was so afraid, about Muller. Looking, at I guess maybe we're learning about some of that today but we still at, some point people were pointing out overnight don't even have a full, picture this is just such a small. Snapshot of it we also don't know what Muller actually. Looked at on his finances, did Muller have his taxes, legal.
Experts, Would say yes. Muller probably, did and it wouldn't have been that hard for, him to get him to get them but, how much of his money was really looked, at and I, wonder if Muller ever testifies. Whether we will get an answer to that my, guess is that Muller will probably not be that helpful in answering that because it's not something that was in his report, and I can't imagine deviating. From that but, it's still this giant, question that hangs over how, much, did Muller look at the money Suzanne, let me ask you because you've been so good at accessing, documents. What. Are the chances of organization. Like the New York Times gets. Its hands on the president's more recent, tax returns say the last six years I just. Think is this continues, to be talked about I think there's, gonna be a break in this I mean I think we, so far haven't seen any of the modern tax returns and that's kind of 2005. Going forward but. I mean I got to think it's gonna happen I mean I maybe I'm just an optimistic person but I think eventually, this is going to break well. Suzanne Craig thank you so much you've, been working night and day and then to come in for hours. You. Put up with it all but musics, enix next, time we can talk hockey I'm Canadians. Moron, from Calgary so my team's out with all the Canadian teams are out though some. Little. Things we learned but please come back thank you very much Prime Minister doing. You. Know he's having some troubles yeah yeah. You. Know Jesus. Where. Do we start on that. But. You know it's interesting well. You don't want to talk about him right now do you. He. Likes to be push-ups in judge one-arm, push-ups. We're very like to stay away from the politics, when I can. You're. Sticking to the numbers, well the stick is time with thank you. Staggering. Numbers ordinary, Suzanne Craig thank you very much thanks, for checking out MSNBC. On YouTube and make sure you subscribe to stay up-to-date on the day's biggest stories and you can click on any, of the videos around us to watch more 4 Morning Joe and MSNBC. Thanks so much for, watching.