George Talks Business- Dave Zilko
Good. Afternoon to all of you in the room and those watching online I'm Lex. McCusker I'm the director of student entrepreneurship, programs, at GW, I'm, delighted. To welcome you today to the second session in our, exciting new speaker, series at the, George Washington School of Business called. George talks business. Our. Goal is to bring you new. Conversations. Each week with, it with a interesting. Guest and two. On, a wide range of timely. Topics, our. Guest today is Dave Zeljko dave. Is the CEO and chairman of a. Few, leadership, and the former vice chairman of garden-fresh gourmet, he's. Also a GW, School of Business alum, Dave, thank, you for taking time for joining us to be here thank you great, I'd like to jump right into the first question, please. Give us some background on you I'm. We're, all curious about when and how you decided, to become an entrepreneur and, we, need to know we want to know how you went about starting, garden-fresh, beautiful. First of all pleasure to be here I did, get my MBA here, too the best years of my life so, to anyone. Who's associated, with George, Washington congratulations, on being associated with a very special place speak. From the heart - I love, this place so. To. Answer your question it really speaks to whether an, entrepreneur. Is born, or are they made and, in, my case I grew up in suburban, Detroit very, humble beginnings, of five, of us on 1,100, square foot home greatest. Parents ever we. Had what we needed but not much more. And. I simply remember my mom sitting me down and with my brother and sister and saying you, can do whatever you want this world as long as you're determined, enough to just, and set your mind to do it I seem. To get that memo they didn't so. That message, connected, with me and. From my various, my. Very earliest, memories, I remember being, drawn to some, form of entrepreneurialism, and my brother and my sister were, nothing against that I'd leave it very heavy probably, more fulfilled lives than I have but. For. Some reason to connect it with me so, I. Got. A degree in finance from Michigan State came. Out here got an MBA marketing. And, when I returned, home to Detroit I started. A specialty, food company, I literally. Developed, for marinades my kitchen counter came, up with a name called American connoisseur, hired. A graphic designer $15, an hour stood over her shoulder and she generated. One label each laminated. I'm cut him out with scissors a scotch tape them on the bottles I gave her and. I had the audacity to send them to the buyer date not since Marshall Fields now it's Macy's and, the guy calls me to home a week later I certainly didn't have an office and, he goes I gotta tell you these are the best Marion has ever had, and he goes I'm gonna place an order so a week later I got an order in the mail for. 96, cases, of my American kind of super gourmet narratives so, that's. A good news bad news is I've no place to make these I'm scrambling around I find a little 3-inch. Of square foot. Bay. In an industrial, park and, the landlord tells me you. Know they've got a couple a counter back there with a couple things once you convert this to a commercial food processing facility. So, I did. Just that and. I'm doing some research I decided to do just that and I needed 2,500, dollars to start. Making food here well that was 2,500. Dollars more than I had at the time so. I did what every red-blooded American, entrepreneur does you want to start a business you want any money I applied, for a credit card loan with discover who. Soon discovered two things about me one I had no income into I had a lot of student loan debt so. They turned me down so, I did what every red-blooded American. Male entrepreneur, does in your situation like this I went to my girlfriend and, he. Must have seen something in me and so, she signed for that first credit card loan blow and people. That's all the time I did Mary you were still married today two beautiful kids and. She. Says the best investment you ever made but more a little later so anyway I'm. Struggling, in, this kitchen we were fine in the summer we had air conditioning but in the winter we had no heat and I would call my landlord, who live in the Bahamas for tax purposes and say look that he's not coming on just flip the switch flicked, the switch it'll, come on it never came on five Michigan winters and never came on I didn't, have a forklift either any. Time somebody would come pick up veronik I had to wheel it out by hand and put on a truck myself, trucks. Wouldn't even come in it, was taking an hour to get in and out of the place and. I. Ended, up buying a mustard company across the parking lot 80 because there, little. Facility. At heat and be she had a forklift so. So. I made my first foreign 2,000 bottles of marinade in this little kitchen I made. First, 800,000. Bottles of mustard across, a parking lot and fast.
Forward 11 years would I produce my Lost Decade. $350,000. In debt that I'll admit to I'm just glad my then, girlfriend now, wife doesn't. Read what I gave her to sign you know why, should no sensible exclusive sleep tonight, and I'm. Technically, bankrupt and, I'm making my way to a Food Show in New York at the Javits Center and, I meet a man named Jackie Aronson 6 foot 5 275. Pound world champion softball, player, who. Was. Also operating, a food company Detroit called garden fresh gourmet, so. We could back to Detroit after this food show and he's we're having lunch and he's tell me about his saga a couple. Years beforehand, he was bankrupt, I was technically bankrupt he literally had to declare bankruptcy the. Holland I was lease in a 1,200 square foot restaurant, just outside of Detroit he's. Taken the bus to work because his car got repossessed, literally. Out of desperation to try to pay his electric bill he, pulls out a five-gallon, bucket and in 15, minutes his very first shot 15, minutes peeling, onions by hand he, makes what is today garden. Fresh artichoke, garlic salsa so. He. Had just moved out of the restaurant. And he got talked into building a plant and he's, telling me he over built he couldn't pay his rent he's gone he's gone bankrupt again so, he said why don't you, I. Was, searching manufacturing, to me moving with me take your GW MBA focus on sales mark and you do whatever you want so, I did a few months after. Doing so our talent scene would complement each other so he, asked me to become a partner so, we're on our way so, we brought. In a professional creative, designer. No. More looking over somebody's shoulder for 15 minutes anymore we, really got our branding, right and. We were kind of on our way so, the. First year we did four point six million dollars together still losing money I didn't take a salary from the company for 18 months I was there and. Our goal was to get the company to ten million in revenue well before we knew it we. Became the number one brand of fresh salsa in the United States we, bought a hummus company we eventually overtook Kraft as the third largest hummus manufacturer, in this country we. Bought a tortilla chip company and Rapids we're the number one brand of chips merchandising, the deli we are the ninth leading brand to dips we did to do Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville food, group licensed. Deli line under his brand and again, our goal is to get the company to 10 million in. Sales we eventually got it to 110 million in sales and. I, got in I got invited to speak at an investment banking conference at, the Marriott Marquis in New York and.
The. Guy who came after me happened, to be the vice president or mergers and acquisitions, for the Campbell Soup Company and. He and I ran a panel after that and then we were talking and he called me about a month later and, he asked if we were for sale I don't we weren't we had been approached by many Fortune 500 companies, and. He said you know look just keep it in mind and next time you're in Southern, California go, talk to some guys running a company called Bolthouse farms we, just bought them so. To show you how motivated, I was I waited five months, before, I went out there I thought it'd be a five-minute meet-and-greet, I really, connected with them and turned out to be 125, minute mean green and, fast, forward June, of 2015, and, we had a pretty spectacular exit, we sold her the Campbell Soup Company for almost, a quarter billion dollars we'll come back to Campbell Soup I want to talk let's. Dig in on irrational. Persistence, you've, written a book with. That clever, title you. Start with a quote from. Calvin. Coolidge, mm-hmm, Calvin Coolidge is my second, favorite president I. Mean. I want to read to the audience nothing, in this world can take the place of persistence, talent. Will not nothing, is more common than unsuccessful. Men with talent, genius, will not unrewarded, genius is almost a proverb, education. Will not the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence. Determination alone. Are, omnipotent. The. Slogan press on has, solved and always will solve the problems of the human race tell. Us Steve what is irrational. Persistence. Well, if, you think about it the stats are very public. And all over the place, something. Like ninety five out, of every hundred. New businesses, fail maybe, 90, out of every hundred new businesses fail so. By definition to. Start. A company. When. You've got a five to ten percent success, rate is not an irrational thing to do it doesn't make sense in fact it's irrational. And. So. To again. To even start a company is is irrational and then you, need to persist so I talk to you about my Lost Decade you know 11. Years and an unheated, 300, square foot local, commissary in Detroit making four hundred thousand bottles of marinade. Making. Eight hundred thousand about jars, a mustard by hand, running up three hundred fifty thousand dollars in dad and, then I meet, Jack Aronson, who had a couple lost decades, before he met me and then it took the two of us and a lot of other very talented people about, a decade to build garden, freshmen of what it would become taken from a four million dollar enterprise to essentially 104. Million dollar enterprise so, it takes an awful lot of persistence and if, you look at garden-fresh as a whole you. Know here's, two flunkies from Detroit. Trying. To sell salsa. I mean what could possibly go wrong right I mean my first couple years with a company I wasn't, above you know getting, sympathy sales people, would look at me like we are crazy, so. You. Know even that was not, rational. So that's what I mean by irrational, persistence, it is not rational to start your own business when the odds of failure are so high and when, you do it. You, literally. Can take decades or, if decades, or for now more to get where you want to be so.
Your Book is full of, dozens. Of interesting, lessons there are a couple I want to focus in on one. Is is the metaphor of the dark room so. You say being, an entrepreneur is like walking into a dark room and figuring, out where your source of light is tell. Us what you mean by the dark room sure, so let's say you have an idea for a business and. Imagine. You're standing in front of a doorway, and looking. Into a room that's completely, dark completely, devoid of light the, rational, person is going to walk, away from that again because you know just statistically, you have such, a high degree of failure the, entrepreneur, will. Somehow be, irrational, and offer maybe have the courage to step into the room and imagine. The door closing behind you and you're in a dark room that's completely, devoid of light it's not fun. It's. Frightening, it's. Lonely, to be in a dark room so, when you're in a dark room when you do you start searching around for sources, of light to, illuminate, your situation, so that you can successively. Have. The room and, if. You are, satisfied before, you are that's great if you want to grow your business chances. Are there's, going to be in. That room you're gonna find an even bigger door with, an even bigger dark room beyond. It and if you if you want, to grow your business it's, not like it gets easier as it goes along you, can very often get more complicated one, of my favorite stories along these lines is. Jack. And I were getting garden-fresh off the ground we're doing pretty well in southeastern, Michigan and the Midwest and we, decided that we wanted to get into Costco, now we knew nothing about Costco's business model nothing, about selling tonight and nothing about being successful there, so we actually our first meeting with Costco was in Los Angeles for their Los. Angeles, regional buyer and, I swear to God can't make this up I'm in LA meeting with Paul Newman, he was our Costco, Los, Angeles deli fire a great, guy I feel indebted to him to this day and, we had just come out with our new branding, and he's, looking at a pint, of our salsa then he says this is this, is the best branding I've ever seen on a fresh salsa and, he tried it he does this is the best freshest. Also I've ever had in my life and he's, looking at the label and he goes do you are from Detroit he, was would you get lost coming out of Texas because. I get. $157. For NeoGeo Michigan you was making cars in Michigan who ever heard of salsa went out of Detroit. So, we get the lobby afterwards and my partner Jack was as unsettled, as I've ever seen him and he was Dave yeah you know I know he wanted fruit swinging for the fences here I know you want to go try to take this national nobody, wants salsa from Detroit I know jack that's what we're from we can't walk away from and.
He Goes I got an idea and I go what he goes we're, gonna get a post office box in New Mexico, and we're, gonna put down on our label and we'll have all that Jack that's not gonna work was like the only serious disagreement. We had a couple years so, Paul. Newman gave us a shot we got into Costco and. Before we knew within 18, to 20 months we, were chain wide at Costco they were easily, our number one customer and we were their top-selling for, our salsa chain wide again these two guys from Detroit but a funny thing happened on the way the forum when you sell to a club. Format you, you need to sell in a much larger, volume and, we, had a sell in a three pound container and, we. Had so many fresh onions and our containers, that those onions were fermenting. And when. You, ferment they produce a gas when in air Tech is a container, your product bloats like a little kind of like a football, so, at, Costco, the problem became, so grave and I'd like to put it this way when, your product is, exploding. Off the shelves you know that means it's selling really well that that's that's good news when. Your product is exploding, on the shelves I'm Johnny you've got a problem and that's what was happening to us at Costco this fermentation, was so. Serious. In this three-pound container that, literally, the caps were blowing off our. Containers. So, it. Was an existential problem, we have taken on a lot of debt to be able to gear up for this big new account we landed and Jack. Found, a, company. In Sweden that was producing, these two million dollar machines, that. Subjected. Fresh food to. Pressure. In 43, degree water and it's, called high pressure pasteurization. And that, allowed us to survive, Costco's. Cold change management system so again being, in a dark room we, were in a dark room when we first got the meeting with Paul Newman we had no idea how to sell the Costco no, notice that any experience was that didn't, know their business model didn't know how to succeed there when, we did start succeeding there we had this existential. Problem of not being able to control our fermentation and it took a two million dollar machine from Sweden which we couldn't afford by the way to really solve this problem for us so.
In, The chapter on the darkroom you talk about changes, in the grocery, store that you had you had observed. You. Talked about moving to the perimeter, of the store tell us what that means and what what he meant to do garden-fresh sure, so, the. Center. Of the store which is like where Campbell's soup is sold and things of that nature, is. Traditionally. Where. Most. Sales occurred there's, been a food revolutionary, revolution. In this country in the past 20 25 years and I'm unbelievably. Proud of our country, for where we come in terms of food I really think we've caught up for you with Europe for the most part but. Consumers. Now are gravitating, toward what's, known as the perimeter, of the store fresh, food meat seafood deli, produce. And. That's kind of where the action, is and that. Is where garden-fresh we performed in the in, the center of the store with fresh, food fresh salsa, hummus, dips, guacamole. Tortilla. Chips and, that's kind of where that. Was a sandbox we played in and. It really is on trend eating of all the all-natural, we, were all-natural, farm-to-table. We, were you, know making things by hand still so it would it really weren't for us it's great so. In, your book I've, read your book talked to you a few times I know that you were superb, salesman, and yet. In your book you say effective, things the whole chapter titled, never sell, anything, what. Do you mean by that Dave well, to me selling, has a, pejorative connotation. Often, deservedly, so if, you are selling, something to somebody you're maybe. Acting in your best interest, but you may not be necessarily. Acting, in the best interest, of the person you're, talking to so, to. Me never, selling anything is not. So much for a sales force is for the people who are building companies, and our. Approach to building garden-fresh, was, there's. This cute, way of saying it woody on has this famous saying bill that. 80% of success in life is showing up so, I, tell. People build a company that Woody Allen would be proud of build. A company where your sales force does not have, to sell anything they, just have to show up to be successful and what I mean by that is that you need to take a specific. Cognitive. Approach when, you're building a company to. Layer, in so, many strategic, advantages, that, your competitors, can't possibly. Match that. When your sales force shows up to meet with a buyer they're. Not selling, anything they're literally having conversations. And, those conversations are. Simply. Explaining, the. Strategic. Advantages, that your competitors, can't match so, a garden-fresh we were the number one brand of fresh salsa so only one brand. Could be number one that was us yeah, and I would tell a buyer if you went there I'm one way another country you can only get it from us we. Had exclusive. Rights to the Margaritaville, brand exclusive, means exclusive, we were the only ones who could sell Margaritaville, salsa so if you want a Margaritaville. Sell so they can only get it from us we, were the only brand. Top, 10 brand of fresh salsa that made our own tortilla, chips and tortilla, chips are a, perfect, complement to salsa. And, we would do all kind of deals by, two salsas, get a free, bag of chips nobody. Else could offer that we, were the third leading hummus manufacturer, in the United States we overtook, Kraft so if you wanted a great line of hummus from the person you were getting salts, and chips from you can only get it from us we had dips we.
Had This high pressure pasteurization. We were way ahead of the curve in technology, we would do private, label for our customers, and by the time I laid all this out I wasn't. Selling to them so. Much as they were buying from us and. Not, only were they buying from us but they would look at our capabilities. And they, would say, could you do this for me can you do that for me you know I've been looking for this for a long time I can't find anybody else to do it you can do it so, we were forming strategic, partnerships, so, we we built a company woody on would be proud of we layered in, so, many strategic, advantages, our competitors couldn't match our sales force all they did it was show up and have conversations. And lay. Out our capabilities, I would never take data into, a sales meeting and as the number one brand in our category nobody, had a better data than oxy and I know this is a data-driven society. And you, know businesses, really focus on data they should but, if you think about it when, you put data in front of a buyer they, know they're being manipulated nobody. Puts bad data in front of a buyer everybody. You, know manipulates. In some fashion to, to, make it look appealing, to. The, person they're talking to and buyers know that and especially in our category in the deli in the permit of the store they. Still go by their gut they still want to go by their instinct, it's a fun category to be in so I never use, data I would just lay out these capabilities sayings, I knew we could do that nobody else could and again. They I wasn't, selling to them they were buying from me and then they've come to me with, other projects, that only we could do so, what happened is that we would form strategic partnerships. With them and if. You're in a situation where you're, not selling to your customers they're, buying from you and then they're reaching out to you for special projects to the cent that you're forming strategic, partnerships, you're. Gonna be in business for a thousand, years but again it really comes down to how, the, approach you take to how you're building your company if, you're sending your sales force in there with a me-too product, where they've got a cell or went on the relationship, your, not doing them justice you're, not doing your. Your you're not doing your job as a leader of your company you've got to take a specific approach, to, build that company Woody Allen would be proud of and. That's what we were able, to do very successfully, garden-fresh attest I promised. We'd come back to Campbell Soup I do want to get the insider's, view on how you sold your company 2015. You sell the company to Campbell, Soup for, 231. Million dollars, tell. Us how that negotiation. Went and if. You would if you can I'm. Sure you can take some time in contrast, the, difference in culture between Campbell's, and garden-fresh oh great, how. Did it go when went very difficult, it was, very it's a hard thing to do yeah so. First, of all my, partner. And his wife they did not want to sell. We, had been approached by many Fortune, 500 companies companies. In the past we did not have an exit strategy which, is not good for an entrepreneurial, situation, but, they just didn't want to sell took me a couple months to even get them to sell and. What. I feared, was that we had taken the company as far as we could and we, were still a family company too many extent to, a large extent we've never professionalized, to the extent we probably should have in, addition, I saw the competitive, landscape getting. Much more challenging and, I didn't think we had the resources to compete with the fortune 500 companies, that we're entering our field so, it took me a couple months to convince. My partner Jack because one of the greatest people ever met my life and as a, wife and that to sell so, then we entered into a negotiation, with, Campbell's I did. Not hire an investment, banker I did, it myself, and. It's just a very difficult thing to go through it's, gut wrenching, it takes a long time I, mean from, beginning, to end it probably took nine months. And. It's just a very complex world these days when you're selling and. So. It, was a very challenging process but, we got a multiple we were very happy with it was about a 15-point one multiple and. You. Know it certainly worked out well for us, so. You sell the company and then what happens it's 15. Decades. Lost decades. Irrational. Persistence, big. Exit what, does Jack do that what, do you and Jack do next yeah well I I wrote a book with.
Hardest Thing I've ever done but very. Fulfilling and. Jackie. Actually set aside ten, million dollars of his proceeds, and he, started a foundation, he, calls it the artichoke, garlic foundation, because that was the first Friday salsa he made in that five-gallon bucket in the back of that bankrupt restaurant just outside of Detroit so, he spent a lot of his time on philanthropy, and then he also found it he was so. Mesmerized. By this high pressure pasteurization, which saved our business at at Costco, that he is set up another company that is, producing. Something. Called a ready meal via, high pressure pasteurization. And we. Actually I'm still involved in this Islamic Center we actually shipped. Our first shipment to Costco. In. Seattle, a week ago Thursday and I literally got word this morning how well they're selling and. Tell us about fuel leadership, so, fuel, is a, digital. Media property, that I found, it, shortly. After we sold a garden fresh and, what we do is the, best way to explain is that you, know we all get emails from GW, and all our schools and everything. Imagine. If you got an email from your school that you. You actually wanted to open that was compelling, that was engaging that, maybe rewarded, you in some way shape or form so we've, been doing this in concert with the University of Michigan who spent spectacular. To us and, we've spent close, to two years now developing. A, digital. Publication. That school sent to their students and alumni via, email, and it's. God it's, designed to inspire, you we have alumni videos, saying what they're doing with their lives. It's designed to inform you there are campus events and things of that nature it's, designed to entertain you, it's. Actually very funny there's some very very engaging. Material, in there it's, meant to be read on your phone three to five minute experience, so it's consistent with modern day life schools. Benefit, from it there's a revenue stream for them and there's, a lot of ways that we can reward. Our subscribers, who again our students our alumni I, really. Think it's breakthrough stuff I'm actually very proud of it I don't know of anybody who's really looking at this space to the extent that we do and we're, doing beta testing literally a week from today at the University of Michigan and we launched formerly this fall I wish you well with it it, it sounds, like once an entrepreneur always an entrepreneur though, no relaxation, it's. It's interesting because back, to your original question are entrepreneurs, born or made I think they can be made yeah but for me I was I was literally I. I just think it's the way I was and what I think originally, drew me to entrepreneurship, again I came from very humble beginnings just outside of Detroit was, you know I was living my life at a certain level and I saw, what. Was possible. Out there and III saw, the level at which I wanted to live my life and that, void was. Just driving me crazy I mean the gap was just unacceptable. To me there's some reasons so I would do whatever I had to do if a man you, know breaking, a nose 1,000 days or making, forms a thousand bottles of marinade in an unheated kitchen outside of Detroit I was, gonna do it because I just I just needed to live the life that that. I imagined, for myself I. Think, what keeps, me going is, I'm really drawn to I. Like. To say there's an artist science to business and the science of business is very important, but I think it's very often commodified, I find. Myself drawn to the art of business there is there's, a tremendous, amount of creativity in business that I don't think people realize. Or, or, give. Sufficient, justice. To I mean I don't even call it making, money I don't even call it being, profitable, I call it creating. Value I mean that's the, approach I take to either building a company or running a business you're literally creating, value and sometimes, in you, know in fuel it may be bringing, a community together or being, in cashflow positive or.
In Garden-fresh I mean we're shipping a million units a week and we work quite profitable when we sold but. Again you're you're creating, value and it's, focusing, on the art that is in business, which. Again I don't think it's sufficient. Attention because. There's tremendous artistry. In business and I just find myself drawn, to that and, it's just a resistible to me yeah, I think one, of the things that comes through in your your book is your focus, on creating, value, for your customers yeah I mean it's you. You start your conversations. Even with with us is you, know what can I do that, will be value, to you and I think that's the if, there's. There's no silver bullets but that comes as close to it in entrepreneurship, yeah and one of the interesting things to me about running a company is that you. Know there are all kinds of stakeholders you have customers, you have employees and you have owners and they, all want more all the time because there's a lot more value and owners, want more profit and employees want more wages and there's nothing wrong with that it's good to want more but. How you balance all that so that you can satisfy all. Levels. Of think holders to the great extent possible it's a big part of being creative in business amen they agreed so, the word on the street is at Campbell's, has put garden-fresh, up for sale what. Did they do with it after they after you got it and. Do. You intend to buy it back well it's. Been. A fascinating, situation when we sold to them the last thing I ever expected them to do was not be successful they were terrific, people. The ones who put the deal together there right from the CEO, on. Down, quite a few levels they were just terrific people. They. Kind of ran into a perfect storm where a lot of people put the deal together for, one reason either left the company so, the people who replace them weren't as familiar with why why, they bought us in the first place, then. They did, they, kind of deactivated, the brand, they. Abandon, our brand voice and our brand personality to, a large extent they branded our approach to market and. I, think what they learned was that a fortune 500 company just, has a very difficult time executing. Work with a company. Our size so. They. Announced, portfolio, review this May and I think. August 31st they. Revealed the results of that review and they decided to divest garden-fresh. So, they've. Turned it over to investment, bankers and, we, my partner Jack and I did put a bid on it on December 10th whereas go to the second round the. Next round of bids were literally do last Thursday, so, you. Know we'll see what happens good. Luck there, are a number of people bidding for it I don't know if okay okay. So. We're coming close to the end of our time I've. Got to ask you the uh you, know the mandatory question, some. Kernels, of advice for our young, entrepreneurs students. In the audience, alumni what, what what advice would you give them you. Know, people. Ask me all the time what's the biggest mistake, I made and the, biggest mistake I made was, this irrational, decision to start, a marinade company what. I know now about marinades, is that there are lousy business to be in there. The market is completely saturated, the. Turn is very slow more. US households, use salad, dressings as marinades of marinades in America, about. The only business that's worse to be in as the mustard business it was my second. Choice mustard. Is unbelievably, equally, saturated, and the average u.s. household buys mustard, two times a year so. I refer, to my Lost Decade, I would have had a loss century if I would have kept going down that path but, fortunately I'm in New York and I meet this 6 foot 5 275, pound world champion softball player no formal education or formal training who of all things has got a fresh salsa little, for ourselves accompany going back, in Detroit so, it wasn't till I came DUP with him that, I realize, salsa. Fresh salsa, was an emerging market. It wasn't saturated, we had the best one on the market the, world was literally beating a path to our door, so.
I Kind of called the holy grail of capitalism, look for emerging markets that aren't yet saturated, and build, the absolute best product you, can and the world will beat a path through doors so my mistake was I didn't, respect the characteristics. Of the, markets, that I initially entered that being marinades and mustard well. We got the garden fresh though it, was a completely different story yeah, we're off to the races, fantastic. Well that's a good note and, useful. To our students and alumni Dave. Thank, you very much for being here and taking time and sharing your thoughts I really want to eat it thank you thank you all any other thoughts you want to share before we wrap up. I. Am, good very. Much so. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the audience who joined us in person and and online and I'd, like to invite you to attend. The next session in the George talks business series, our. Next guest will be Dan Simon's, dan is the founder and co-owner of the, farmers restaurant, group he's also a GW, School of Business alum, he'll. Be joining us on Monday, February 11th, at noon, look. Forward to seeing you then either here in person or online and, thank you for joining us. You.